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Holysword
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: USB Hub - Type C Reply with quote

Hello all,

I've been entertaining the idea of getting my hands on a USB Hub to relieve the Cable-Spaghetti coming out of my laptop (HDMI + Ethernet + Audio Out + Audio In + 4 USB ports occupied, and increasing...). My model is an Asus RoG GL752V, meaning that I do have a USB-C port.

However, so far, every single USB-C Hub I found has a 15~20cm long cable. That means that the Cable-Spaghetti would be lying besides my laptop instead, which kind of completely defeats my purpose. To make matters worse, I haven't found a single one where the USB-C cable is connected to the Hub - they are always embedded!

I considered getting myself an USB-C Extension. Those are quite tricky though. I need a Male USB-C to Female USB-C. Pretty much all of those are also 15cm long. Those which are not short have scary reviews, such that "my fast speed external hard driver does not get recognized with this extension."

Bonus: if possible, I'd rather have a L-shaped male USB-C cable instead of the regular one, to keep everything neatly together.

Have any of you guys had any experience with USB-C hubs with HDMI+Ethernet+Audio that end up recognizing everything and does not have a tiny cable?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are short for a reason - signal integrity. Usb-C full spec is silly speeds so if you want a hub that supports that it's going to be special
It's easier to meet signal integrity with a short harness rather than a longer one so I am not surprised makers are doing this

Also 3rd link in a Google search... 60cm long
https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-Type-C-4-Port-Aluminum-Silver/dp/B074ZTJNXX/ref=mp_s_a_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1537219694&sr=8-21&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=usb+type+c+hub
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
They are short for a reason - signal integrity. Usb-C full spec is silly speeds so if you want a hub that supports that it's going to be special
It's easier to meet signal integrity with a short harness rather than a longer one so I am not surprised makers are doing this

Also 3rd link in a Google search... 60cm long
https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-Type-C-4-Port-Aluminum-Silver/dp/B074ZTJNXX/ref=mp_s_a_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1537219694&sr=8-21&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=usb+type+c+hub


Thanks for your reply.
The link you posted is just a USB hub. It doesn't contain HDMI, Audio nor Ethernet.

About integrity - I'd be surprised if the length of the cable is the issue here! I have a docking station for my Thinkpad that uses USB-3.0. It is pretty fast (don't ask me the figures, I don't remembrer) and 1.5m long. Oh, and VERY expensive.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that is the key :) expense.
To correctly construct the cable to meet the spec at the 1m length isn't cheap... Controlled impedance etc.

So all the hubs use short leads to the controller so they don't need to add additional expense into their product.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean something like this:

https://us.gearbest.com/cables-connectors/pp_009171999747.html?wid=1433363
and this:
https://us.gearbest.com/cables-connectors/pp_009835296486.html?wid=1433363

I have seen a lot like this recentlly, but I have no idea if they work, I suppose that using gigabit eth and hdmi 4k at the same time could problematic, maybe gigabit eth and 1080p could be doable, if Trump lets you buy one inform us of the results please :-) :-) :-)
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The longer the cable at a given speed, the thicker the conductors will need to be.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After all USB-3.2 / USB-C is just a 10Gbps connection, 10GBASE-T trasmits at that speed over "regular" eth cables up to 100 meters long .... Speed and cable lenght cannot be only factors in the equations of course.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A 10GBASE-T interface presently requires 8W of power.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
After all USB-3.2 / USB-C is just a 10Gbps connection, 10GBASE-T trasmits at that speed over "regular" eth cables up to 100 meters long .... Speed and cable lenght cannot be only factors in the equations of course.
it isnt, it's the characteristic impedance. It's maintaining a distance to the earth braid.

You need to match the impedance once the risetime approaches 10% of the wave propogate.
Also there is alot of capacitance in a line that needs to be charged and doscharged
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this might explain why the max cable lenght for eth@10Gbps is 100 meters while the max cable lenght for USB@10gbps is 15 meters, maybe also because the ethernet sockets are mag-coupled while usb aren't...
Still doesn't explain why most hubs have short cables and most importantly doesn't explain why a USB 3.2 extension cable, certified for 10Gbps speed and of the desired lenght (up to 15 meters) cannot be used ..... are all the sellers of such extension cables scammers?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so what is the difference between this: https://us.gearbest.com/cables-connectors/pp_009171999747.html?wid=1433363 and a docking station?
This device has everything a docking station need, but the price is a big difference...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
So this might explain why the max cable lenght for eth@10Gbps is 100 meters while the max cable lenght for USB@10gbps is 15 meters, maybe also because the ethernet sockets are mag-coupled while usb aren't...
Still doesn't explain why most hubs have short cables and most importantly doesn't explain why a USB 3.2 extension cable, certified for 10Gbps speed and of the desired lenght (up to 15 meters) cannot be used ..... are all the sellers of such extension cables scammers?

Gigabit ethernet is level-based with either DME or MPE (I can never remember...)
USB3 is unfortunately edge timing related with some annoyingly tight timing as it is all edge triggered. AS such there are very tight requirements on this timing which drives a certain characteristic

Shorter cables are easier to achieve this with a certain cost target. Longer harnesses it becomes harder and harder, especially as the edges become a dominant factor
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christian99 wrote:
so what is the difference between this: https://us.gearbest.com/cables-connectors/pp_009171999747.html?wid=1433363 and a docking station?
This device has everything a docking station need, but the price is a big difference...

I'd also love to know.
Afaik, docking stations require and external power supply, this one doesn't seem to require one. However, several of those *allow* for an external power supply and warn that HDMI, for instance, only works if the external power supply is plugged.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

USB-C can transmit some nice power (upto 100W)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Power is not mandatory, some usb-c port doesn't have power at all. usb-c can transmit a lot of things, hdmi, display port usb, power etc but not necessarily all.

BTW I installed my activated windows 10 to an ssd connected to a usb attached scsi in virtualbox virtual environment created using petove, and the speed is amazing, the cable is 1mt long and I get 300MBps, that is 3Gbps really great, and with native command queue the os is really usable like it was native sata. I am throwing away all non UAS sata-usb adapters ...
And that's not all, apparently win10 boots from a UAS disk while booting from a legacy USB3 disk is not supported, and never worked for me.
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