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steve_v
Guru
Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 388
Location: New Zealand
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 Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Strangely, I have failed to spot that one from here under my rock. Thank you, it looks handy.
| proteusx wrote: | | You come across as very immature yet you appear to be in this forum since 2002. Perhaps 'axl' was originally an older brother or even a father? |
I have been wondering at that, there's the incongruous use of txt-speak and fascination with software we have all been aware of for years too, as if it was a new and exciting discovery. Most odd.
I'd certainly expect such an established user to be more open-minded about others viewpoints and software choices as well, perhaps this is an impostor?
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Yamakuzure
Advocate
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2284
Location: Adendorf, Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | | Yamakuzure wrote: | | Well, the "Windows Event Log" you need the "Windows Event Viewer" for, makes perfect sense, as those are generated all over the place with tons of data you want to be able to effectively filter in a GUI world. |
Really? In what universe? The Windows event log and event viewer are a fucking nightmare. I'll take a world where everything writes to text logs any day. I can filter with commands that have been around for over 40 years.
Tom |
As you so whole heartily misunderstood my post by simply cutting it down to something you can bash on (*): In the fucking universe where Windows System Administrators do not have a clue of the "commands that have been around for over 40 years" which you and I know.
Look, I hate binary logs and never stated something else. But it is not my fault that not every computer user on this planet knows what you use.
Besides, not everything is crap just because you do not use and/or like it.
The Windows Event Log has been around for over two decades, too. And you are right. It is a nightmare. Still it at least enforces some standardization which is necessary because nobody intervened early enough to stop it. (**)
And no, I do not like systemd either. I have seen it brick servers in ways which were not even possible without it. So again, thank you very much for jumping down my throat for nothing.
(*) Point was: Microsoft isn't to be blamed for systemd devs stupidity. They had a reason, systemd has not.
(**) Which, sadly, seems to be true in the case of that idiotic binary journald, too.
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steve_v
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Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 388
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Yamakuzure wrote: | | As you so whole heartily misunderstood my post by simply cutting it down to something you can bash on |
I may well be guilty of the same, for which I apologise.
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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RE: Windows Event Logs
As a Windows user the biggest problem that I have with them is that the messages cannot be cut and pasted into a search engine so that the user can get some amplification of what's wrong and how to fix it. i.e. What's error 50? What might be causing it?
On Linux, I do this all the time with the output of dmesg and /var/log/messages. It's very helpful.
Regarding the design, I'm sure that the derogatory comments here are justified.
On Windows 2000 there was setting whereby instead of a dumb icon you can see the progress messages in real time. This proves the system is still booting (often half a minute or longer) and when it stops you can see where it was and a message. This was removed in XP. I'm 90% sure the screen logging occurs, but it's invisible, replaced by dumb moving shapes. I guess if the shapes stop moving you can assume it crashed. In what subsystem? Nobody knows. Just reinstall the OS and all your software, hoping you have data backup. |
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tld
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Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1816
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | Regarding the design, I'm sure that the derogatory comments here are justified. |
That was sort of my point. I'd argue that Microsoft's original decision to log in a binary format was just as poor as systemd's...especially given how important it it to read logs on a system that can't even boot. That's why it never happened in unix.
Tom |
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | pjp wrote: | | Given that this thread was the first place you posted after almost 5 months of inactivity, you chose an interesting approach to "engaging" with others on the subject. How does that compare against your standards of virtue and honor? |
to be fair I left unhappy because of this. and returned to see how things fare... and this thread was on the first page. and also towards my old stint on these here forums, I lost interest with gentoo in general and became consumed, again, by the systemd issue. I really dont know why you throw that in my face. I will be leaving again pretty soon. I just briefly returned to offer some apologies if required. |
Because your first post upon returning seemed intended to antagonize and elicit an in-kind response.
| axl wrote: | | Especially when it's one that is not so politely inviting me to leave. |
If you're referring to my post, I'm not in any way asking you to leave. I was wondering why you came back to seemingly antagonize others in this thread.
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Ant P.
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Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | proteusx wrote: | | Perhaps alert us to some wonderful feature of Systemd that we failed to notice. |
ok. fine. i'll try this.
since I use gentoo extensively, like many other people, I looked into distributed compiling. Like many others. You end up with distcc and crossdev... like many others did. by the third time it hurts my brain to tell my fingers to write it. ok.
watch -n1 "journalctl -S -60 -U -0 -u distccd | grep COMPILE_OK | gawk '{print \$14;}' | cut -d \":\" -f2 | sed -e \"s/ms\$//g\" | gawk '{ sum+=\$1; } END { if (NR > 0) { print int(sum/NR) \"/\" NR; } else { print \"0/0\"; } }'"
do that in openrc :) |
distccmon-text 1 |
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Hu
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Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 21635
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | RE: Windows Event Logs
As a Windows user the biggest problem that I have with them is that the messages cannot be cut and pasted into a search engine so that the user can get some amplification of what's wrong and how to fix it. i.e. What's error 50? What might be causing it? |
Yes, but that's the fault of the people who chose to write unhelpful strings in their logs instead of writing for a technical audience (the technical support division, if nothing else). Linux tools can write unhelpful logs (but tend to get abandoned or fixed because nobody likes bad logs) as text. Windows programs can (but surprisingly often do not) write good logs to the Windows Event Viewer. | Tony0945 wrote: | | On Linux, I do this all the time with the output of dmesg and /var/log/messages. It's very helpful. |
I attribute this to enlightened self-interest. The people responsible for those logs recognized that writing quality messages would help them in the future, whether through better bug reports or less time spent explaining the real problem to people who sought help. |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Hu wrote: | | I attribute this to enlightened self-interest. The people responsible for those logs recognized that writing quality messages would help them in the future, whether through better bug reports or less time spent explaining the real problem to people who sought help. |
True. But what I meant was putting the message string into google or DuckDuckGo or Ask.com. Usually, someone else has asked about the message and I can find an explanation and probable cure on line. Many times it's an old Gentoo forum thread.
But also, as you say, numerical exactness like PCI numbers and driver names help a lot. A typical message in Windows might be (number made up)
"Error 2340 - a device has failed to initialize" or (real error) "Event 50 - The RDP Protocol component x224 detected an error in the protocol stream and has disconnected the client" i.e. something went wrong with Remote Desktop Viewer, although I suppose "x224" might be a clue. |
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axl
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1144
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | distccmon-text 1 |
did that ever work? I've read threads of other people actually making it work in the end. tbh, i didn't. I made my own way.
EDIT: or put it another way. i'm too incompetent for some reason to make your solution work. therefor i wen't with what i had available and worked. |
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Jaglover
Watchman
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 8291
Location: Saint Amant, Acadiana
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pjp
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axl
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1144
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:19 am Post subject: |
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net.ifnames=0 is such a easy fix. why bother about it?
PS already had this, before figuring out other people have a problem with this. but it's an easy fix.
PPS also think it was in systemd-2.1something when they decided we're not gonna have ethernet connections with custom names. not sure it's the same issue, but... tbh, on this issue alone I sit with you guys. still didn't figure for myself why the interface rename. there must be a technical reason at the root of all things I keep telling myself. maybe for some company. but I dont exactly know why. seems stupid to me too. |
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Jaglover
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pjp
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Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:47 am Post subject: |
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But this is someone who maintained support for systemd, not solely a user who chooses to use something else. So the final straw appears to be a different context, which I think is potentially important. As a hypothetical user I care primarily about change that only causes me headaches (it does not solve a problem I have) and security issues. If those two issues were to be resolved, I'd probably take the path of least resistance (to reduce change that only caused headaches). If the context of the final straw is likely to increases the chances I'll have either of those problems, then it becomes very important.
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sao98021
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 03 Apr 2012
Posts: 145
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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this escalated in a... moderately controlled and consistent pace
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | net.ifnames=0 is such a easy fix. why bother about it? |
Generally I agree. I have it built right into my kernel. However, this was a server. It might have multiple interfaces which can change on every boot.
The udev rule is good for that case. |
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tld
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Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1816
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Jaglover wrote: | | Meanwhile Devuan is gaining supporters. |
I had actually never even tried Debian in the past. Our company used to deliver our product as a CentOS 6 VM. When we needed to modernize it post systemd, no way were we going with CentOS 7. We went with Devuan Jessie and honestly it's been awesome...a great lean, mean headless server that does the job just great. I suspect that the next time we need something newer it'll be a newer version of Devuan.
That made me realize what a nice server distro Debian was and why it was the scene of one of the biggest of the systemd battles. Insane that they went the system route. |
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axl
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Location: Romania
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| sao98021 wrote: | this escalated in a... moderately controlled and consistent pace
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Isn't that a good sign? |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1144
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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question... for everybody.
did yall know daniel robbins funtoo is systemd free? |
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8936
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Probably everyone participating in this thread is aware of it. |
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axl
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Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1144
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| yesterday that was false. I didn't even know daniel left gentoo. my fault. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54242
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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axl,
Seach these fora. There is a list of systemd free distros.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1144
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | axl,
Seach these fora. There is a list of systemd free distros. |
thanks neddy, but I aint looking for one. If I was, I would know how to make my own. |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1144
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| I was just shocked to see Daniel on facebook doing promotion for a distro I never heard about. And it was an anti-systemd thread and I had a moment... wait... what? who. nooo. cannot be the same guy. Turns out, i've been living under a rock. I didn't know. |
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