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Naib
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:15 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

pjp wrote:

Given that this thread was the first place you posted after almost 5 months of inactivity, you chose an interesting approach to "engaging" with others on the subject. How does that compare against your standards of virtue and honor?

to be fair I left unhappy because of this. and returned to see how things fare... and this thread was on the first page. and also towards my old stint on these here forums, I lost interest with gentoo in general and became consumed, again, by the systemd issue. I really dont know why you throw that in my face. I will be leaving again pretty soon. I just briefly returned to offer some apologies if required.

then you need to step back and consider you attitude

You use systemd. Good for you. Others use openrc ... Good for them.

Both obviously work(certain definition of work) otherwise people wouldn't use them. Doesn't make your view the canonical view
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axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:17 am Post subject:

Naib wrote:

axl wrote:

pjp wrote:

then you need to step back and consider you attitude

Since you insist to get attention and a reply, I would like to point out that it is impolite to answer a post when it's a direct quote and nothing else. Especially when it's one that is not so politely inviting me to leave. I will, don't worry. But it's impolite to say so

EDIT: you could have also found something gentoo-like to comment about. or at least systemd like. or linux like. not axl like. it's just... such low quality comment. but you wanted the attention.

axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:25 am Post subject:

this is an echo chamber. when you are in a group of people, that happen to all agree among themselves... it's an echo chamber. u guys have your team. i'm part of the undesirables. i'll see myself out. again.

Naib
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:36 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

Naib wrote:

axl wrote:

pjp wrote:

then you need to step back and consider you attitude

EDIT: you could have also found something gentoo-like to comment about. or at least systemd like. or linux like. not axl like. it's just... such low quality comment. but you wanted the attention.

You want to talk about impolite? How about cherrypicking my response cutting out the part where we have a chpoce.

Want to talk about being rude, how about coming in here shouting to use the "one true init"

axl wrote:

so this is still an issue. it's just... so many cpu cycles wasted on nothing.

LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

sorry. been holding that in since the last time I was here. in fact I'm amazed how much time elapsed and still, one of the first 10 issues on the forums is always a variation of this. years gone by. people still hold ignorance as a virtue. shame on you. shame on you.

You didn't come here to discuss, you came to preach. There are architectural and coding concerns with systemd and it is clear to the presence of the serious CVE's and potterings responses to bugs.

So here is an idea, either debate or shut up
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axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:43 am Post subject:

Naib wrote:

So here is an idea, either debate or shut up

Did I say "one true init to rule them all". That sounds like something I might have said. But I was drunk and it was obviously a joke. Did you take me seriously?

What ? the latest 3 CVE's that are all related to journald and can only be used by local users. Yeah... I think I'm fine. I think everyone is fine.

I wonder by what metric we judge holes in our systems. Like intel me. or spectre. or systemd. personally since i have to deal with all 3, I place systemd on the last place. how about you? discuss...

proteusx
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:51 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

this is an echo chamber. when you are in a group of people, that happen to all agree among themselves... it's an echo chamber.

u guys have your team. i'm part of the undesirables. i'll see myself out. again.

You already know that Gentoo Discussion Forums are very helpful and friendly but you are trolling:

axl wrote:

Many of us explained that we learnt and tried Systemd and we did not like it for various reasons. Do you have anything constructive to say? Perhaps alert us to some wonderful feature of Systemd that we failed to notice.

axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:58 am Post subject:

Naib wrote:

responses to bugs.

here's a crazy idea. fix the bugs. if they are bugs.

people have different notions about functionality.

Again, tomato tomato... no that doesn't work... potato potato... nope that doesn't work either... UHM...

look. you might look to new features in systemd as threatening and taking over. I was quite happy most of the code is in C and can be built statically. it's just different needs. i'm quite happy with the functionality of systemd. on SOME high end systems. there's still some vm's and embedded systems that still cant use systemd. They have a custom boot sequence.

but again, I proposed this idea before. I still think it holds water. the system I'm on, is a systemd system. but I could just as easily boot it in openrc mode. i just change the init. it's still there. or I could make my own. to know the difference, you need to learn. and learn. and learn.

when it comes to systemd bugs, again, I think it is important to distinguish between bug and just plain malice. if it's a bug, exploit it. break every system in the world that has systemd and prove to the world you are right. why is that not happening already? why do people keep improving and repairing systemd instead of the popular belief that systemd is not fixing bugs? u just have to run your daily updates to know how often systemd is updating their stuff. I just... dont know by what metric to judge things.

axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:03 am Post subject:

proteusx wrote:

Perhaps alert us to some wonderful feature of Systemd that we failed to notice.

ok. fine. i'll try this.

since I use gentoo extensively, like many other people, I looked into distributed compiling. Like many others. You end up with distcc and crossdev... like many others did. by the third time it hurts my brain to tell my fingers to write it. ok.

watch -n1 "journalctl -S -60 -U -0 -u distccd | grep COMPILE_OK | gawk '{print \$14;}' | cut -d \":\" -f2 | sed -e \"s/ms\$//g\" | gawk '{ sum+=\$1; } END { if (NR > 0) { print int(sum/NR) \"/\" NR; } else { print \"0/0\"; } }'"

do that in openrc

first figure out what it does... because distcc is so common, as is the rest of the things on that long list. figure out what it does. do it. come back to me when it's done to compare results.

axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:05 am Post subject:

since someone mentioned the 3 recent CVE's about journald... i thought it's the perfect opportunity to stretch the brain muscles. so stretch them...

steve_v
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:35 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

I just briefly returned to offer some apologies if required.

What? The first post I saw from you here in quite some time was to yell at people, in caps, to learn systemd:

axl wrote:

LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM AND STOP MAKING EXCUSES.

That's no apology.

By all means, discuss. Bring some valid points to defend your choice of software. But please stop preaching, and try to understand that yelling at people to accept your point of view just makes you look like a zealot and a fool.

Alternatively, you could just accept that other people do not and will not agree with you, stop trolling, and go do something more constructive.

You run systemd, that's your choice. I do not, and that's my choice. I'm not even attempting to tell you what to do and what to like, that's all you.
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Last edited by steve_v on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:40 am; edited 1 time in total

axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:38 am Post subject:

steve_v wrote:

axl wrote:

I just briefly returned to offer some apologies if required.

What? The first post I saw from you her in quite some time was to yell at people, in caps, to learn systemd. That's no apology.

By all means, discuss. Bring some valid points to defend your choice of software. But please stop preaching, and try to understand that yelling at people to accept your point of view just makes you look like a zealot and a fool.

2 ^ posts above for a challenge.

as for the other thing. u're exaggerating. it was ONE sentence in caps. no preaching. go do the challenge.

steve_v
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:43 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

it was ONE sentence in caps.

One is too many, particularly if it's telling me what to do.

axl wrote:

go do the challenge.

You know that telling me what to do bit? I'm not your minion buddy.

I might have a play with that bit of scripting, if I can be arsed. But not telling me what problem it's attempting to solve (particularly as I have neither systemd nor distcc installed), isn't exactly motivating me to play your little game.
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axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:50 am Post subject:

steve_v wrote:

axl wrote:

it was ONE sentence in caps.

One is too many, particularly if it's telling me what to do.

heresay. I didn't tell you what to do. You just decided you didn't want to do that thing and thought to make me a target. plus some herd (not nerd) thinking and some other things.

Quote:

axl wrote:

go do the challenge.

you know that part when you wanted to debate. u cant do the task. we cant compare results. it's that easy. so there's nothing to debate.

I honestly thought you were one of the good ones. I'm disappointed u turned out to be equal to the moose. hi moose. I love u too.

steve_v
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:06 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

I didn't tell you what to do.

Odd, I thought my grasp of english was adequate. Perhaps I misread "LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM" an a standard verb + object imperative... It sure looks like one.

axl wrote:

you know that part when you wanted to debate. u cant do the task.

I can't do the "task", or even verify that your solution works to begin with, without setting up a systemd + distcc environment, and that's not something I'm not willing to do to amuse a troll.

Had you stated "systemd can do $task, and openrc can not", without the cryptic bullshit and superiority complex, I'd be more than happy to debate it.

I am not, however, going to dissect your script or recreate it on an openrc system without the success conditions of the exercise being delineated.
If this is to be a real challenge, provide some sample input and an expected output format. I'll pick my tools and prove a processor that does the job.

If this is about systemd, make it about systemd, not an exercise in reverse-engineering a log processing script for software I don't have available.
If this is about proving your superiority and belittling those that disagree with you, I'm done taking to you.
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axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:21 am Post subject:

steve_v wrote:

axl wrote:

I didn't tell you what to do.

Odd, I thought my grasp of english was adequate. Perhaps I misread "LEARN THE DAMN NEW INIT SYSTEM" an a standard verb + object imperative... It sure looks like one.

I get that you don't want to learn this. systemd. regardless of my english (which is a major reason to apologize).

Quote:

axl wrote:

you know that part when you wanted to debate. u cant do the task.

well, to be fair, it's a multi layered challenge. let me break it down for you.

first of all, let me assure you, none of it should burn down your house. it might. but it wasn't intended.

first of distcc. which I think should be in every gentoo-er toolkit. distcc is that service that (omg in this context I explain it - because most of you dont use it)... ok.

let's start over. let's imagine a perfect environment where u have more than one pc, and you want to compile a kernel really really fast. using like your mom's pc and your sisters pc and your kids pc... i dont know. each his own. I'm not getting into that.

but lets just ... for the sake of argument ... assume ... just this once, you have more than one pc. more than one machine. and you want to compile your ... lets say kernel with more than one pc.

for that... you would need distributed compiling. and you should ALL BE FAMILIAR with that.

but since most of you aren't... with called distcc. and when it works it spew's stuff like this into syslog:

Jan 14 02:53:05 dev3 distccd[7794]: (dcc_job_summary) client: 192.168.23.1:46660 COMPILE_OK exit:0 sig:0 core:0 ret:0 time:1869ms cc /usr/src/git/rpcs3/Vulkan/glslang/SPIRV/disassemble.cpp
Jan 14 02:53:05 dev0 distccd[13905]: (dcc_job_summary) client: 192.168.23.1:47842 COMPILE_OK exit:0 sig:0 core:0 ret:0 time:2068ms cc /usr/src/git/rpcs3/Vulkan/glslang/SPIRV/InReadableOrder.cpp

so this is the sort of stuff distccd outputs. and this is the sort of thing that script touches.

hey. if you dont want to play... dont play.

who said you have to ?

steve_v
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:29 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

let's start over. let's imagine a perfect environment where u have more than one pc, and you want to compile a kernel really really fast. using like your mom's pc and your sisters pc and your kids pc... i dont know. each his own.

Dude, I was using distcc with LFS in 2001. Now that I have fast machines I no longer need it, so I no longer have it installed.

axl wrote:

when it works it spew's stuff like this into syslog:

Jan 14 02:53:05 dev3 distccd[7794]: (dcc_job_summary) client: 192.168.23.1:46660 COMPILE_OK exit:0 sig:0 core:0 ret:0 time:1869ms cc /usr/src/git/rpcs3/Vulkan/glslang/SPIRV/disassemble.cpp
Jan 14 02:53:05 dev0 distccd[13905]: (dcc_job_summary) client: 192.168.23.1:47842 COMPILE_OK exit:0 sig:0 core:0 ret:0 time:2068ms cc /usr/src/git/rpcs3/Vulkan/glslang/SPIRV/InReadableOrder.cpp

Congratulations, that's distcc's log output. You have not explained what is wrong with it or what output you would prefer.
If you just want to generate a summary or compute total time per package, I'm sure you can do that by processing the system logs, with or without journald.

It looks to me like journald is just doing some preprocessing for you, stuff you could do just as well with standard text-processing tools and the timestamps in syslog. But I don't have journald or its manpages installed to check this.
Furthermore, none of the 7 or so PCs and other linux-powered devices in my vicinity use systemd either, and I'm not going to spin up a VM just to test your script. Frankly, I have better things to do.
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axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:38 am Post subject:

steve_v wrote:

You have not explained what is wrong with it or what output you would prefer.

watch -n1 "journalctl -S -60 -U -0 -u distccd | grep COMPILE_OK | gawk '{print \$14;}' | cut -d \":\" -f2 | sed -e \"s/ms\$//g\" | gawk '{ sum+=\$1; } END { if (NR > 0) { print int(sum/NR) \"/\" NR; } else { print \"0/0\"; } }'"

the line starts with watch and n1, therefor everything else that follows on the same line has to be done within a second. that particular second when the command is run. and it's relative to it's time frame bla bla and bla bla. why negative 0. and and and. like I said.

this only proves how many people use distcc and not so many people use distcc and that is a reason to worry. I dont worry that systemd exists. I worry gentoo folks dont use distcc. and every person I talk to that doesn't see that... sorry buddy...

EDIT: or journalctl which is also part of the long string of commands and also part of the recent cve. yeah... i dont worry about that.

steve_v
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:49 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

I dont worry that systemd exists. I worry gentoo folks dont use distcc. and every person I talk to that doesn't see that... sorry buddy...

Again you insist that others should use the software you use. Not sure if this attitude is hubris, pig-headedness, or just plain trolling.
I ask what was wrong with distcc's log output that you wanted to filter it so, and you disseminate into more people should use distcc and "my script runs in one second". I don't get it.

Now I have no idea what your point is or was. Are you trying to show that journald produces some output that is better than what syslogd writes, or just prove how smart you are because you use distcc?
Given your earlier "figure out my script", I'm seriously leaning towards just trying to prove you're smarter than everyone else, in which case I'll say goodbye again.
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axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:53 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

steve_v wrote:

You have not explained what is wrong with it or what output you would prefer.

ok. the trick is that that I can invoke whatever I want with journalctl.

that -S. starting time. You can use either the standard time or unixtime (which I absolutely love). my time. or negative. in hours. in seconds. minutes and seconds. doesn't matter. just make sure first to check datetimectl. bye bye ntp.

and then the ending time -U. just as loosely.

now -u. service name. could have just as easily be any other service.

the rest is just math. but the first part. i want log from date x to date y for service Z. that's power. that's power. nobody is stealing anything from you. that's just power.

the rest about distcc. that's just... i dont want to talk about that anymore. if you didn't get the point... i'm just a crazy person.

axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:54 am Post subject:

steve_v wrote:

axl wrote:

I dont worry that systemd exists. I worry gentoo folks dont use distcc. and every person I talk to that doesn't see that... sorry buddy...

I have no idea. no alternative. can't do it. can't get in the challenge. can't play. i get it. now, honestly, shut up, it's time for other people to speak if they choose to.

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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:03 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

the trick is that that I can invoke whatever I want with journalctl.

I can invoke whatever I want with bash, or a number of other tools. What's your point?

axl wrote:

i want log from date x to date y for service Z. that's power. that's power. nobody is stealing anything from you. that's just power.

I can get that information from the system logs with grep and awk. Probably with awk alone.
Journalctl might make it marginally easier, but any competent sysadmin already knows grep and awk, so why not just use them?

axl wrote:

the rest about distcc. that's just... i dont want to talk about that anymore. if you didn't get the point... i'm just a crazy person.

Distcc is a fine piece of software, but I currently have no use for it. On my setup it would be nothing more than needless complexity...
Much like another piece of software I might mention, only only more rationally designed, and actually filling a need. A need I don't have, but a need nonetheless.
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axl
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:14 am Post subject:

steve_v wrote:

axl wrote:

the trick is that that I can invoke whatever I want with journalctl.

I can invoke whatever I want with bash, or a number of other tools. What's your point?

axl wrote:

i want log from date x to date y for service Z. that's power. that's power. nobody is stealing anything from you. that's just power.

axl wrote:

the rest about distcc. that's just... i dont want to talk about that anymore. if you didn't get the point... i'm just a crazy person.

fine. could you please design me a piece of powerful bash script where I could mimic the behaviour of -S/-U and maybe even -b? they even have --list-boots. DAMN.

ohhh. could you also make it work in less of a second. thanks bye.

steve_v
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:44 am Post subject:

axl wrote:

design me a piece of powerful bash script where I could mimic the behaviour of -S/-U and maybe even -b?

I'm not that bored.
I'll give you a couple of hints though, off the top of my head: -S & -U should be fairly easy to accomplish with regexp and grep, awk or even sed.
The expression would of course be dependent on the time format you are using in your log files.

ed. If I had a real reason to do this right now, I probably wouldn't use bash anyway, I'd use perl - this kind of thing is what it's for.

As for -b, sysv writes /var/log/boot.log, and openrc /var/log/rc.log (with timestamped gzipped previous boot logs). If you want kernel messages from boot, just search kern.log using timestamp obtained with e.g. 'who-b' or another appropriate marker.

axl wrote:

they even have --list-boots.

I even have 'last reboot' and 'last -x' whoop-de-do.

Searching a whole log file will of course be slower than journald's index database, but with sufficient motivation there's no reason you couldn't do a bisect search for the time range you want, or even index the logs in an external database.

I have no need to search logs that fast though, or to filter them every second. I do have a need to have them stored in plaintext for analysis on another machine or searching with the tools I already know.

If you like journald's features, good for you. For me, binary logs create more problems than they solve.
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:35 pm Post subject:

What is this atittude of "Anyone who doesn't do it my way, is wrong"? People know about distcc, they have reasons to (not) use it. You may have a reason to use it. Just because you find something for yourself does not render the rest stupid. Maybe, maybe people already went where you are going, and maybe they made other conclusions.

proteusx
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:18 pm Post subject:

axl wrote:

proteusx wrote:

Perhaps alert us to some wonderful feature of Systemd that we failed to notice.

first figure out what it does... because distcc is so common, as is the rest of the things on that long list. figure out what it does. do it. come back to me when it's done to compare results.

You failed to say what your one liner is supposed to do. From what I can surmise you want to have a continuous display of the average compile time and how many client compiles your distcc server has done during he last 60 seconds, or whatever. I would hardly call this a killer feature of systemd's binary logs.

I can think many different ways to continuously monitor distcc.log and get the same results. (e.g. using anyone of tail, entr, inotify-tools, and others).

Suppose now that your computer refuses to boot and you need to read quickly the logs to perhaps get clues for the reasons for the malfunction. I can take the disk out, mount it on another machine and I am ready to go. Good luck with your binary logs.

P.S .
You come across as very immature yet you appear to be in this forum since 2002. Perhaps 'axl' was originally an older brother or even a father?

Last edited by proteusx on Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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