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pjp
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:24 am    Post subject: systemd discussion: agree to disagree Reply with quote

Continued from The Politics of systemd Part 3

A request, please.
  • Keep it civil.
    If someone else does not, don't engage.
  • Report if it is justified.
    Generally speaking, people have opinions which differ form others. Accept that there may not be any common ground.
  • Descalate your reaction.
    If you're agitated by a post, wait a while before replying. Then be sure to edit and review before clicking submit.


As a reminder, the front page says this about Gentoo Chat:
Gentoo Chat
For general linux questions, see Off The Wall.


Since some people have a strong aversion to anything in Off The Wall, it has been a "courtesy" that general technical discussions have not been moved there. Please help by your portion of any disagreements at or below "agree to disagree."

Thank you.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bghoons wrote:
Why do I get the impression that behind SystemD is a grinning Bill Gates? Since Microsoft could not defeat Linux, they had to go the route "let's make Linux more hateful to use than Microsoft --they will come running and crying back to us!"
That one really made my day! Thanks, mate! :lol:

But back to the article from a decade ago.

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
As some of you have been discussing DCOP and DBus, I thought you might find the following 5 June 2009 post in the lxde.org blog interesting. I just now came across it by coincidence while searching for information on how to use DBus in LXDE. Seems the LXDE developers are not too fond of freedesktop.org either (I can't blame them!).

https://blog.lxde.org/2009/06/05/if-you-dont-like-to-be-forced-to-use-gnome-standards-please-join-xdg-mailing-list/

Quote:
The so-called cross-desktop standards are actually well-implemented in Gnome and KDE only.

Quote:
Recent changes in freedesktop.org, like PolicyKit and ConsoleKit, are mainly developed and implemented by Gnome-related developers. Then the KDE guys are forced to follow them. They even drop their well-designed and high performance IPC mechanism, DCOP, and adopt dbus, which is mainly advocated by Gnome developers.

Quote:
Why should we always be forced to follow all those things we don’t like or don’t even need? If we don’t follow them, we lost compatibility with many existing Gnome/GTK+ and KDE programs.



Please look at this. Basically it is the following:
  1. Complain that "so-called cross-desktop standards" aren't really widely used standards.
  2. Complain that KDE dumps their own IPC mechanism in favor of the one fancied by the Gnome project
  3. Complain that it has to be supported to not loose compatibility to a certain range of software.


Although I wouldn't have preferred dbus over dcop, it was the right move to no longer force others to support two systems, but to go for one. That there exists software that pulls in an avalanche of dependencies is another story.

(Actually I do not care if a program pulls in most of kde-frameworks and a lot from kde-plasma, when that's still smaller than what we had with kdelibs... Have you forgotten how long that monster took to build? ;-) )
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
(Actually I do not care if a program pulls in most of kde-frameworks and a lot from kde-plasma, when that's still smaller than what we had with kdelibs...

Yeah... that one goes like:
  1. Complain about software depending on the kdelibs blob
  2. Complain that KDE rewrite their software all over again
  3. Complain about software depending on all those many Frameworks packages

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
axl ... here you are again with your specious logic, remember, it was only a short while back you were proclaiming that we shouldn't pretend that such a thing is even "possible", but now, it's "a fluid concept", with "quite a number of implementations" ... that is, if we only knew what sort of confused idea you have in mind.


Proclaim? I don't really know how you got that idea. I'm simply observing what is going on around me. I don't have the illusion that the way I do things is the way everyone does things. Or should do things. Also who exactly is "we" here? I dare not consider the possibilities.

khayyam wrote:
It was only a few post back you were proclaiming that "most of the time they don't work", but now they seem to have "mature[d]". You can't even present a consistent argument. All I've seen so far is you failing to address any of the points put to you ... you simply wander off on some other tangent, and issue more proclamations about this-that-or-the-other ... that makes any discussion with you completely pointless.


Might be a tangent to you. I still maintain, what was matured yesterday, is obsolete tomorrow. And it didn't get "matured" with people sitting out, taking the old easy way out. like i mentioned before, I get your point.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1084684-highlight-.html

Besides, the discussion has gone offtopic long enough. The dude wanted security in openrc for the next 10 years. I did my best to not be sarcastic or mean. Decided eventually to shut up. But came home a bit drunk and all hell broke loose because I can't hold my tongue. And people should do their best to learn if they can, both systems. And that's the truth. One point I tried to make along the way is that you don't always have the luxury to decide what init system is on the machine you're working. It could be a machine at work, or at school and you might not have access to change the init system and that why you have to learn both.

The lame (I'll repeat LAME) attacks only gave me a chuckle. But let's not drag this more then it has to. I figured what I needed to figure about the people I spoke to. There's really no need to go any further on the chat forums.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
axl ... here you are again with your specious logic, remember, it was only a short while back you were proclaiming that we shouldn't pretend that such a thing is even "possible", but now, it's "a fluid concept", with "quite a number of implementations" ... that is, if we only knew what sort of confused idea you have in mind.

axl wrote:
Proclaim? I don't really know how you got that idea. I'm simply observing what is going on around me. I don't have the illusion that the way I do things is the way everyone does things. Or should do things. Also who exactly is "we" here? I dare not consider the possibilities.

axl ... yes, proclaim ... that's what a statement amounts to in absence of an argument supporting that statement. Japan is the capital of Paris! As for "we", this is common English used to refer to a generic third person, ie, "by adding two plus two we obtain four".

khayyam wrote:
It was only a few post back you were proclaiming that "most of the time they don't work", but now they seem to have "mature[d]". You can't even present a consistent argument. All I've seen so far is you failing to address any of the points put to you ... you simply wander off on some other tangent, and issue more proclamations about this-that-or-the-other ... that makes any discussion with you completely pointless.

axl wrote:
Might be a tangent to you. I still maintain, what was matured yesterday, is obsolete tomorrow. And it didn't get "matured" with people sitting out, taking the old easy way out. like i mentioned before, I get your point.

Again, you're not answering to the points put to you, and are wandering off on a tangent ... "what was matured yesterday, is obsolete tomorrow" has nothing to do with whether you've vacillated between "most of the time they don't work" and their having "mature[d]. So, no, it's not my opinion whether you take a tangent, or not, it's clear from your statements.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
khayyam wrote:
axl ... here you are again with your specious logic, remember, it was only a short while back you were proclaiming that we shouldn't pretend that such a thing is even "possible", but now, it's "a fluid concept", with "quite a number of implementations" ... that is, if we only knew what sort of confused idea you have in mind.

axl wrote:
Proclaim? I don't really know how you got that idea. I'm simply observing what is going on around me. I don't have the illusion that the way I do things is the way everyone does things. Or should do things. Also who exactly is "we" here? I dare not consider the possibilities.

axl ... yes, proclaim ... that's what a statement amounts to in absence of an argument supporting that statement. Japan is the capital of Paris! As for "we", this is common English used to refer to a generic third person, ie, "by adding two plus two we obtain four".

khayyam wrote:
It was only a few post back you were proclaiming that "most of the time they don't work", but now they seem to have "mature[d]". You can't even present a consistent argument. All I've seen so far is you failing to address any of the points put to you ... you simply wander off on some other tangent, and issue more proclamations about this-that-or-the-other ... that makes any discussion with you completely pointless.

axl wrote:
Might be a tangent to you. I still maintain, what was matured yesterday, is obsolete tomorrow. And it didn't get "matured" with people sitting out, taking the old easy way out. like i mentioned before, I get your point.

Again, you're not answering to the points put to you, and are wandering off on a tangent ... "what was matured yesterday, is obsolete tomorrow" has nothing to do with whether you've vacillated between "most of the time they don't work" and their having "mature[d]. So, no, it's not my opinion whether you take a tangent, or not, it's clear from your statements.

best ... khay


I'll say it again. Guarantee for the next 10 years. If it were anything else other than systemd, any respectable linux user's head would explode.

I reacted. I didn't think. I didn't lie. I just reacted based on the little I knew.

There is no statement without argument. And no question was put to me that I didn't answer. Well, excluding the obvious insults like: "are you a gentoo user?"

And as for you latest convoluted question, i had to look up "vacillated". why would you use such a word?

Anyway, when a concept is fluid how can I be sure of it? I'm sure of my implementation and my system(s). But nothing beyond that. I observe others. But I lack your conviction in what is THE way. In fact I think of myself as flexible and fluid. As opposed to rigid. (I didn't have to lookup this word. it spells exactly the same way in my native language).
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
It was only a few post back you were proclaiming that "most of the time they don't work", but now they seem to have "mature[d]". You can't even present a consistent argument. All I've seen so far is you failing to address any of the points put to you ... you simply wander off on some other tangent, and issue more proclamations about this-that-or-the-other ... that makes any discussion with you completely pointless.

axl wrote:
Might be a tangent to you. I still maintain, what was matured yesterday, is obsolete tomorrow. And it didn't get "matured" with people sitting out, taking the old easy way out. like i mentioned before, I get your point.

khayyam wrote:
Again, you're not answering to the points put to you, and are wandering off on a tangent ... "what was matured yesterday, is obsolete tomorrow" has nothing to do with whether you've vacillated between "most of the time they don't work" and their having "mature[d]. So, no, it's not my opinion whether you take a tangent, or not, it's clear from your statements.

axl wrote:
I'll say it again. Guarantee for the next 10 years. If it were anything else other than systemd, any respectable linux user's head would explode.

axl ... yet another failure to address the points put to you, and yet another tangent. What has this "guarantee for [...] 10 years" to do with anything I've written above, or your entirely contradictory statements?

axl wrote:
I reacted. I didn't think. I didn't lie. I just reacted based on the little I knew.

No, you made claims ... like "most of the time they don't work" ... you don't get to back down from those by claiming you were acting on the best knowledge available at the time.

axl wrote:
There is no statement without argument. And no question was put to me that I didn't answer.

Nonsense, firstly, "Japan is the capital of Paris" is not an argument, and secondly, as I pointed out way back, an argument takes the form: premise (in the form of, or supporting) => propositions, statements => conclusion. The above is a perfect example of an non-argument: "[t]here is no statement without argument" is a pronouncement, or proclamation, not an argument. As for answering questions ... pffft.

axl wrote:
And as for you latest convoluted question, i had to look up "vacillated". why would you use such a word?

Hah!! Asking you to justify the vacillation between two contradictory positions is convoluted? Anyhow, because it's part of the english language.

axl wrote:
Anyway, when a concept is fluid how can I be sure of it? I'm sure of my implementation and my system(s). But nothing beyond that. I observe others. But I lack your conviction in what is THE way. In fact I think of myself as flexible and fluid. As opposed to rigid. (I didn't have to lookup this word. it spells exactly the same way in my native language).

Another tangent ... but I see, no one should hold you to anything you say because "concepts [are] fluid". That's convenient.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:

I reacted. I didn't think. I didn't lie. I just reacted based on the little I knew.


As I've said before, educate yourself before you come and lecture those of us that HAVE educated ourselves...

Besides, didn't you tell me that you were done posting about systemd?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

context is everything. have a good one :)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
context is everything. have a good one :)

axl ... which in this context is meaningless ... saved you though.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I already love this thread.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
bghoons wrote:
Why do I get the impression that behind SystemD is a grinning Bill Gates? Since Microsoft could not defeat Linux, they had to go the route "let's make Linux more hateful to use than Microsoft --they will come running and crying back to us!"
That one really made my day! Thanks, mate! :lol:


It is already the case. Take a look at Uniform look for Qt and GTK applications. It is because of such kind of mess linux will never be mainstream into the desktop market. The average desktop users don't care about liberty of choices or utopical concepts they are afraid of, they just want the comfort to click on "OK" "OK" "OK" in any order and are expectings things to work that way, and that even if that mean they are enslaved to the machine.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:
It is already the case. Take a look at Uniform look for Qt and GTK applications. It is because of such kind of mess linux will never be mainstream into the desktop market.

Not sure what you see there. If I run openSUSE/Ubuntu/younameit, then none of that page is relevant to me. Arch users and Gentoo don't have that comfort, but their users are generally not the ones that depend on it.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had been using Linux long before systemd, then a long (or short?) break from Linux for about 4-5 years. One day I decided back to Linux and quickly reinstalled Ubuntu on my laptop. It was a big surprise to me that all the services manager tools I knew disappeared, until I found a new systemd :-). As long as I was learning *new* features of systemd, I found it very much much like Windows services management, which is forcing you to use tweak tools like sysinternals or power shells scripts. My patience lasted a week or a couple, started looking for non-systemd distros, the first was LFS and Gentoo came second. That's my way to Gentoo :-D
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to each his own. if you lost patience in "a week or a couple" it doesn't say anything about systemd.

however it says something about ignorance. coming to gentoo as an non systemd distro has a high price. which you have to pay. not just advertise that you pay.

thing is, no matter what everyone says on the internet and on the forums, on the end of the day, when you end up with a terminal and a nano/vim... you still have to be the idiot between intel and the chair. and 99% of me thinks 99% of people just hate microsoft. which i get. i hate microsoft. man... i hated microsoft when microsoft was dos. when bill gates thought he owned basic. then hated them through dos, and windows, windows 9x and nt and now. and I still fracking hate them more then ever.

but who ever equates systemd with microsoft clearly doesn't have an idea about neither. really just ... enjoy your ignorance.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
but who ever equates systemd with microsoft clearly doesn't have an idea about neither. really just ... enjoy your ignorance.


There may be no direct link, but there is clearly a similarity of style. In its approach, there is a certain resemblance between systemd and svchost.exe.

I really don't mind if you want to use systemd, feel free to. My dander gets up when people start thinking I should be using systemd, and that I'm an idiot for not wishing to use it, that I can't possibly have any valid reasons for not using it, and start calling me "hater" and "tard" because I don't wish to use it.

How about this... "emacs" is just such a great editor, why on Earth are there any "vi" users still? Everyone should be using emacs, nobody should be using vi, pico, nano, femto, nedit, or any of those other old-fashioned editors.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
There may be no direct link, but there is clearly a similarity of style. In its approach, there is a certain resemblance between systemd and svchost.exe.


ok. let's entertain this idea. 3 things which are similar. go:...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
99% of people just hate microsoft. which i get. i hate microsoft. man... i hated microsoft when microsoft was dos. when bill gates thought he owned basic. then hated them through dos, and windows, windows 9x and nt and now. and I still fracking hate them more then ever.

but who ever equates systemd with microsoft clearly doesn't have an idea about neither. really just ... enjoy your ignorance.


Not my case, it's not fair to hate the company paying your bills. How much time an average user will be working with systemd, less than 5% user time, I guess. I myself opted gentoo is not because openrc vs systemd, but rather too lazy to learn new tricks. Just love good memories of old days struggling with inittab rc[0..6].d where I can alter a service a few lines.

Many arguing me that openrc is fading, as many distros moved to systemd and only unofficial forks provide openrc (like Artix of Arch).
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Microsoft does a lot of things notably better than certain Linux companies today.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
if you lost patience in "a week or a couple" it doesn't say anything about systemd.

however it says something about ignorance.


Attitudes like this are one of the primary reasons why I can’t stand systemd.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pun_guin wrote:
Microsoft does a lot of things notably better than certain Linux companies today.


Making money is top of that list.
Buying up competitors and either closing them down or assimilating them is in the list too.
Then there is embrace expand extinguish
Lets not forget vendor lock in ...
... and

... but none of them are any reasons to use Microsoft products.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although he later backpedaled (probably because he was found) it is still an interesting read.
He even compared the NTFS development to that of systemd.
If even a Microsoft engineer does not like systemd development, says quite a lot to me.

Quote:

(Besides: you guys have systemd, which if I'm going to treat it the same way I treated NTFS, is an all-devouring octopus monster about crawl out of the sea and eat Tokyo and spit it out as a giant binary logfile.)


http://blog.zorinaq.com/i-contribute-to-the-windows-kernel-we-are-slower-than-other-oper/
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maitreya wrote:
Although he later backpedaled (probably because he was found) it is still an interesting read.
He even compared the NTFS development to that of systemd.
If even a Microsoft engineer does not like systemd development, says quite a lot to me.

Quote:

(Besides: you guys have systemd, which if I'm going to treat it the same way I treated NTFS, is an all-devouring octopus monster about crawl out of the sea and eat Tokyo and spit it out as a giant binary logfile.)


http://blog.zorinaq.com/i-contribute-to-the-windows-kernel-we-are-slower-than-other-oper/


It's worth noting the article is from 2013.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HungGarTiger wrote:
axl wrote:
if you lost patience in "a week or a couple" it doesn't say anything about systemd.

however it says something about ignorance.


Attitudes like this are one of the primary reasons why I can’t stand systemd.


what attitude exactly? it takes time and dedication to learn something new. what is wrong with that?
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