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Naib
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:22 pm    Post subject: SystemD free system/gentoo Reply with quote

Following on from (should)/Can we get rid of systemd ???
Can you have a totally systemd Gentoo system with the freedom to choose any package you want?

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Without_systemd - old "dirty" flagged wiki
Quote:
Why is systemd pulled in?
Most packages depending on systemd, actually depend on systemd or OpenRC or some other init system. Portage will attempt to install the first in the list, which might be systemd.

Portage cannot magically guess which init system the user prefers. USE flags defined user preferences.


In theory yes. In practice?


  • systemd-readahead - sort of obvious and why would you want such a component but oppose systemd?
  • GNOME they became dependant on logind but did not realise it (see old gentoo communications) but stuck with it. GNOME can be de-systemd'ed via a stub https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1051428.html https://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2013/09/25/gnome-and-logindsystemd-thoughts/
  • USE="wayland" emerge mutter -va An odd one... Wayland does not need systemd BUT if you want mutter with wayland support you need dbus with systemd support ...
    What specifically about dbus needs systemd
  • www-misc/profile-sync-daemon a toolsuite developed by archlinux but a distrro that is dependant on systemd, thus may have been developed with "needed" hooks
  • net-misc/netctl another archlinux toolsuite
  • app-admin/abrt Automatic bug detection and reporting tool


Wiki page created to track packages that hard-depend and any known workarounds:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Hard_dependencies_on_systemd
The best solution is to contact upstream to request removal of the hard dependency on an init system as there is almost no reason why such a dependency is needed.



what other packages exist? this was done with a crude grep over /usr/portage and looking at the output ( ? = optional, ! = no ... no prefix = questionable)
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Last edited by Naib on Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:50 pm; edited 7 times in total
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mv
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: SystemD free system/gentoo Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
USE="wayland" emerge mutter -va An odd one... Wayland does not need systemd BUT if you want mutter with wayland support you need udev with systemd support

You are drawing wrong conclusions. This has nothing to do with wayland or with USE=wayland.
mutter itself needs gnome-desktop:3 (independent of wayland) (which is a horrible dependency, but that you do have to discuss with mutter upstream); probably you have USE=udev set when gnome-desktop is pulled it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: SystemD free system/gentoo Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Naib wrote:
USE="wayland" emerge mutter -va An odd one... Wayland does not need systemd BUT if you want mutter with wayland support you need udev with systemd support

You are drawing wrong conclusions. This has nothing to do with wayland or with USE=wayland.
mutter itself needs gnome-desktop:3 (independent of wayland) (which is a horrible dependency, but that you do have to discuss with mutter upstream); probably you have USE=udev set when gnome-desktop is pulled it.

I thought I was quite clear it was mutter with the wayland flag here NOT wayland...
It appears to be dbus related not udev


Code:
emerge wayland -va

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/wayland-1.15.0::gentoo  USE="-doc -static-libs" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 423 KiB



Code:
emerge mutter -va

 * IMPORTANT: 1 news items need reading for repository 'gentoo'.
 * Use eselect news read to view new items.


These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N     ] gnome-base/gnome-common-3.18.0-r1:3::gentoo  USE="autoconf-archive" 153 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] gnome-base/gnome-desktop-3.24.2:3/12::gentoo  USE="introspection udev -debug {-test}" 1,040 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] sys-power/upower-0.99.7:0/3::gentoo  USE="introspection -doc -ios (-selinux)" 438 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] gnome-extra/zenity-3.24.0::gentoo  USE="libnotify webkit -debug" 1,060 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] x11-wm/mutter-3.24.4::gentoo  USE="introspection udev -debug -gles2 {-test} -wayland" INPUT_DEVICES="-wacom" 3,500 KiB



Code:
 USE=wayland emerge mutter -va
Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/wayland-1.15.0::gentoo  USE="-doc -static-libs" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 423 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/wayland-protocols-1.14::gentoo  98 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] gnome-base/gnome-common-3.18.0-r1:3::gentoo  USE="autoconf-archive" 153 KiB
[ebuild   R    ] media-libs/mesa-18.1.3::gentoo  USE="classic dri3 egl gallium gbm llvm nptl wayland* -bindist -d3d9 -debug -gles1 -gles2 -opencl -openmax -osmesa -pax_kernel -pic (-selinux) -unwind -vaapi -valgrind -vdpau -vulkan -xa -xvmc" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" VIDEO_CARDS="(-freedreno) -i915 -i965 (-imx) -intel -nouveau -r100 -r200 -r300 -r600 -radeon -radeonsi (-vc4) -virgl (-vivante) -vmware" 0 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] sys-apps/systemd-239-r1:0/2::gentoo  USE="acl gcrypt kmod lz4 pam pcre policykit resolvconf seccomp split-usr ssl sysv-utils -apparmor -audit -build -cryptsetup -curl -elfutils -gnuefi -http -idn -importd -libidn2 -lzma -nat -qrcode (-selinux) {-test} -vanilla -xkb" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 7,004 KiB
[ebuild   R    ] sys-apps/dbus-1.12.8::gentoo  USE="X systemd* -debug -doc -elogind (-selinux) -static-libs {-test} -user-session" ABI_X86="32 (64) (-x32)" 0 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration-7::gentoo  63 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] sys-power/upower-0.99.7:0/3::gentoo  USE="introspection -doc -ios (-selinux)" 438 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] gnome-base/gnome-desktop-3.24.2:3/12::gentoo  USE="introspection udev -debug {-test}" 1,040 KiB
[ebuild   R    ] x11-base/xorg-server-1.20.0:0/1.20.0::gentoo  USE="glamor ipv6 udev wayland* xorg xvfb -debug -dmx -doc -kdrive -libressl -minimal (-selinux) -static-libs -systemd -unwind -xcsecurity -xephyr -xnest" 5,954 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] gnome-extra/zenity-3.24.0::gentoo  USE="libnotify webkit -debug" 1,060 KiB
[ebuild  N     ] x11-wm/mutter-3.24.4::gentoo  USE="introspection udev wayland -debug -gles2 {-test}" INPUT_DEVICES="-wacom" 3,500 KiB
[blocks B      ] sys-apps/systemd ("sys-apps/systemd" is blocking sys-fs/eudev-3.2.5)
[blocks B      ] sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration ("sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration" is blocking sys-fs/eudev-3.2.5)
[blocks B      ] sys-apps/sysvinit ("sys-apps/sysvinit" is blocking sys-apps/systemd-239-r1)
[blocks B      ] sys-fs/eudev ("sys-fs/eudev" is blocking sys-apps/gentoo-systemd-integration-7, sys-apps/systemd-239-r1)



You are probably right that it is gnome-desktop but it can't just be that otherwise mutter on its own would then request systemd. As you can see from the 2nd example, this has gnome-desktop as well as the dbus USE flag but no systemd.



but anyway... there are packages that do depend on systemd within the gentoo tree. How many and what can be done to de-blob them if so wished
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: SystemD free system/gentoo Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
How many and what can be done to de-blob them if so wished

I don't think anything has to be done, if you take time to remove systemd from these program, you'll probably just see they are still doing other weird stuff because they are program with that mentality in mind.

What programmer would use an interface that change API at every versions, push out a new version every 10s and refuse to fix critical bug and claiming they are not ones if that programmer doesn't embrace that mentality carried out by systemd?

People are doing that, they keep trying to make gnome working without systemd, just to see they endup with gnome, and it sucks bad and need even more tweaking to make that gnome looks like a decent UI.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

net-misc/netctl another archlinux toolsuite
app-admin/abrt Automatic bug detection and reporting tool
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: SystemD free system/gentoo Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
I thought I was quite clear it was mutter with the wayland flag

You are right. I checked only the DEPEND output of eix -vle|grep wayland, but the RDEPEND output directlry contains systemd.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Without_systemd

"Masking udev" is bogus in this wiki. Using udev does not install systemd on your system, in fact it is blocking systemd.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Naib wrote:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Without_systemd

"Masking udev" is bogus in this wiki. Using udev does not install systemd on your system, in fact it is blocking systemd.

I agree, that wiki is low quality and has been flagged as dirty. I have updated the 1st post to flag this as "dirty"

I have created an alternative to remove 1st person and just list. This has been added to the 1st post. https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Hard_dependancies_on_systemd#A_Systemd_free_system

Equally I agree the issue isn't udev, is hard depending on systemd which then forces dbus to be rebuilt with systemd support
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
which then forces udev to be rebuilt with systemd support

systemd is completely replacing udev package, in that way there is no difference to eudev.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Naib wrote:
which then forces udev to be rebuilt with systemd support

systemd is completely replacing udev package, in that way there is no difference to eudev.
apologies... I meant dbus. The packages listed either DEPEND or RDEPEND explicitly on systemd. This requires systemd to be pulled in and equally dbus to be recompiled to support dbus.
Why they depend I am not sure... One is because upstream does not want to support different init systems so an OpenRC helper package could be created as the init script should be simple
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
One is because upstream does not want to support different init systems
If your daemon or service depends on an init system, YDIW.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
If your daemon or service depends on an init system, YDIW.
My emphasis; had to look that one up. :P
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
steveL wrote:
If your daemon or service depends on an init system, YDIW.
My emphasis; had to look that one up. :P
:D Your Doing It Wrong.
Basically the package in question provides unitfiles and as the developer is an archlinux user he doesnt see the point in supporting n+ init systems. I see his point and this was one of the selling points for systemd ... The distro doesn't need to write (bad ) init scripts as upstream can (they always could)
I believe I stated in another thread that the freedesktop should have pushed for a standard format NOT a particular instance.

So what do we do now? More and more daemons will potentially ship with unit files and openRC could replicate and it does for the major packages (samba, X...) But what about the smaller packages?
OpenRC starts accepting unitfiles (uuur)
Additional helper package with OpenRC scripts for those packages that only provide unitfiles
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Naib wrote:
One is because upstream does not want to support different init systems
If your daemon or service depends on an init system, YDIW.


+1
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
So what do we do now? More and more daemons will potentially ship with unit files and openRC could replicate and it does for the major packages (samba, X...) But what about the smaller packages?
OpenRC starts accepting unitfiles (uuur)
Additional helper package with OpenRC scripts for those packages that only provide unitfiles


Three choices:

1. "Relax and enjoy it" - just go with the flow, install systemd and have a compiled RedHat system.

2. Stay static and move more and more packages to local overlay, performing surgery on the ebuilds and patching the source as required. -
This is what I'm doing. Spent about 12 hours Saturday and Sunday updating and patching. The most time was researching why old eudev would no longer compile. Turned out to be a glibc change. Anyone interested PM me for the patch to 1.10.

3. Fork Gentoo - Lincoln said "The nation cannot long endure half slave and half free". The same applies to a distro.
This is the course I've long advocated. I'm volunteering right now to be a helper to any serious rebels. I'd much rather work on a properly designed eudev workalike than patch their stenchy code.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
2. Stay static and move more and more packages to local overlay, performing surgery on the ebuilds and patching the source as required. -
This is what I'm doing. Spent about 12 hours Saturday and Sunday updating and patching. The most time was researching why old eudev would no longer compile. Turned out to be a glibc change. Anyone interested PM me for the patch to 1.10.


I did that about 2 weeks ago, it was the fact that sys/sysmacros.h doesn't pull in sys/types.h any more.
(I cheated, added sys/types.h to sys/sysmacros.h long enough to compile the old code, as I saw eudev had sysmacros.h all over the place, talk about spaghetti crap :) )


Edit to add: Call me a ludite, but I'm thinking Neddy has the right idea with a static dev. ~le sigh~
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:

2. Stay static and move more and more packages to local overlay, performing surgery on the ebuilds and patching the source as required. -
This is what I'm doing. Spent about 12 hours Saturday and Sunday updating and patching. The most time was researching why old eudev would no longer compile. Turned out to be a glibc change. Anyone interested PM me for the patch to 1.10.

3. Fork Gentoo - Lincoln said "The nation cannot long endure half slave and half free". The same applies to a distro.
This is the course I've long advocated. I'm volunteering right now to be a helper to any serious rebels. I'd much rather work on a properly designed eudev workalike than patch their stenchy code.


I've long done #2 but have seriously considered #3 a number of times... my time is pretty limited these days*, but if we did go #3, I'm sure I could find time to help in some capacity.


* I own/run a non-computer related business and typically work 60-80 hours per week. I do have some down time at work, like right now as I'm typing this, when I can devote some time to working on ebuilds and patches, but it's not something I could dedicate something like every Monday afternoon or weekend to.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Naib wrote:
One is because upstream does not want to support different init systems
If your daemon or service depends on an init system, YDIW.
Somewhere I saw a great video interview with a guy heavily involved with BSD (there's a link somewhere in one of the systemd threads), where he made a similar comment. There was apparently something being done somewhere in systemd that actually appeared potentially useful and he discovered that it only lived in "libsystemd". His comment on that was "If your library name is lib<mydaemon> you're doing it wrong."....haha. Bingo.

Tom
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
2. Stay static and move more and more packages to local overlay, performing surgery on the ebuilds and patching the source as required. -
This is what I'm doing. Spent about 12 hours Saturday and Sunday updating and patching. The most time was researching why old eudev would no longer compile. Turned out to be a glibc change. Anyone interested PM me for the patch to 1.10.

3. Fork Gentoo - Lincoln said "The nation cannot long endure half slave and half free". The same applies to a distro.
This is the course I've long advocated. I'm volunteering right now to be a helper to any serious rebels. I'd much rather work on a properly designed eudev workalike than patch their stenchy code.
Is static just a preference, or is something "forcing" you do make that choice? I'm using openrc, eudev and have systemd masked. Seems OK (so far). Instead of a fork, would an overlay work at least as a near-term solution? Distributing patches via PM seems "cumbersome".

For a while, I've thought it would be nice to have Neddy's "Old Fashioned Gentoo" a bit more automated.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Is static just a preference, or is something "forcing" you do make that choice? I'm using openrc, eudev and have systemd masked. Seems OK (so far).
I was going to ask the same thing. I have no systemd, and while I've stuck with sys-apps/openrc-0.17 in my local overlay, I've kept up to date with eudev.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a few packages that I've masked to stay at a certain level

sys-apps/openrc-0.13.11 -- haven't needed anything past this point and it works well
sys-fs/eudev-1.10-r2 -- same with these, they work well with all the hardware on my system, they even work well with the new acer laptop
sys-fs/udev-init-scripts-27

along with

x11-libs/gtk+-2.24.31-r1 -- only local because I got tired of patching ebuild to remove gobject-introspection-common
app-text/ghostscript-gpl-9.15-r1 -- don't remember why, but something about a newer version didn't work right with something else on my system, but works as is
dev-libs/nspr-4.12 -- these 3 because I'm happy with firefox at the level it is, although I've switched to palemoon as main browser and this is backup
dev-libs/nss-3.27.2
www-client/firefox-45.6.0

They all seem to work perfectly with other software that gets updated regularly. YMMV
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose, that's the version I have. I moved it from one overlay to another and found it wouldn't build. The reason was as tld said upthread the new glibc and sys/sysmacros.h.
The patch is here https://paste.pound-python.org/show/SVmKd4R1o3i3rOoPYEzz/ Yes PM would be cumbersome.
I call it "eudev-include-sysmacros-header.patch" It's based on a patch I found online for eudev-3.1.5 A few modifications (file name and line numbers) were needed for 1.10

I incorporated it directly in my overlay copy of the ebuild directory, renaming it eudev-1.10-r3.ebuild, but the ebuild already calls "epatch_user" so it can patched as a regular user patch as well without modifying the ebuild.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Is static just a preference, or is something "forcing" you do make that choice? I'm using openrc, eudev and have systemd masked. Seems OK (so far). Instead of a fork, would an overlay work at least as a near-term solution?


The versions I am using have left the official tree. Without getting into personalities, I've been burned by unexpected and unannounced changes in behavior from {dev name withheld} updated ebuilds that I'm gun shy and have masked all later versions of all his packages.

I think you mean a public overlay. I've thought of putting my overlays on SourceForge (I don't use git) but was unsure of whether anyone else really wanted them. I have several:

oldgentoo - packages/versions gone from the official tree resurrected and EAPI updated.
nosystemd-overlay - current ebuilds with systemd support and references excised
redhat-free - ebuilds purged of systemd, dbus, and udev support

That last one includes meld. The official ebuild hard requires dbus, but runs fine without it. An error message appears on the screen (dbus not found) but functionality is not impaired. A web search implies that dbus is only required for gnome systems. It probably should be controlled by a gnome use flag. No problem on Mate. I don't quite have a dbus free system, but I'm close. Mate is the current reason. I'm still on 1.12 because it works for me and later versions bring in more RedHat code.

I'd prefer a fork so I didn't have to contend with blockers every time I sync. OK, call me paranoid, but I think there is a real cabal dedicated to excising all non-systemd stuff.

My central server is dbus free because I have Lumina there for a GUI. I only have a GUI so that I can access my cable modem and router with Palemoon (late model web browser with early firefox interface, pre-australis). That's convenient because they are located only feet away.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand, thanks for clarifying. And yes, I did mean a public overlay. My thinking was that for an initial "coordination of effort and interest," it might allow for a lower barrier to entry, but I didn't consider blockers.

Comments on or suggestive of interest in a fork seem to have been around for as long as systemd, so the interest seems persistent, though I haven't tracked unique users mentioning it. The idea of a public overlay was to (possibly) satisfy that interest while avoiding a fork (for as long as reasonably possible, since forks seem to introduce their own challenges).
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Comments on or suggestive of interest in a fork seem to have been around for as long as systemd, so the interest seems persistent, though I haven't tracked unique users mentioning it. The idea of a public overlay was to (possibly) satisfy that interest while avoiding a fork (for as long as reasonably possible, since forks seem to introduce their own challenges).


I quite agree. I'd really prefer that Gentoo be systemd free like Funtoo, but with (it seems) a majority of devs promoting systemd that's not going to happen.
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