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njsg
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
krinn wrote:

It's like if someone would impose bluez on me, i'm not developping any applications that use bluetooth, still i agree bluez is useful for devs that use it.
I'm not a bluez user, i don't have any bluetooth devices, still i agree some users have bluetooth keyboard or whatever and need it.
But i understand if anyone would complain if his system is pulling bluez for no reason.
Even if someone create "kickassbluetooth" that replace bluez, with kick ass functionalities and latest bluetooth technology and features ; i would still qualitify it as useless ; so even i could agree every devs and bluetooth users would praise that new program, i would still not wishing to use this or bluez. It's not because i love live in the past, just that i have no usage of it, bluez or even the new kickassbluetooth.
But i understand if someone would complain bluez was remove while "kickassversion" have not yet reach the level where it could handle his bluetooth device : because at end, that user is just complaining that his keyboard is not working with "kickassbluetooth", making it totally useless, while if he have bluez, it work.

That's python2.7 and 3.6 status: 2.7 is not dead, and users may still have a need for it ; when in 2020 2.7 would be remove, user may still have a need for it, but it's not gentoo dev fault, it's python dev fault and also that user fault (he had time to react).
In the meantime, that very same user may have no usage (yet) of python3.6 and i could understand he then doesn't wish it.


I don't have to care about each little package in my gentoo. My system does and portage does. I didn't put python-3 on your system. Follow the culprit.

Go to meson website, complain to them. https://github.com/mesonbuild/meson . Ask them why they are using python-3 instead of 2. It's not a gentoo thing. It was done upstream. At this point gentoo devs would have to rewrite/fork/patch meson to work with python2. I doubt there's any interest in that.

Going further. What uses meson? Out of my packages I can see: dev-libs/libinput (complain to them coz they use meson, tell them meson is evil and uses python-3, again do you expect gentoo to fork libinput to avoid meson). fuse-common. xorg-proto. libdrm. quite a few packages that use meson. Can you live without them? no. Can you blame gentoo for it? no.


Gentoo can be blamed for not informing users well enough and not offering an alternative for at least some time. The package manager can deal with different versions and dependencies, it'd be a shame not to use that exactly where it would come in handy.

Other than that, no, for the newer versions there's not much Gentoo can do short of making a meson alternative.

axl wrote:

And that bluetooth thing I do not understand. Mine works fine. Both keyboard, mouse, gps AND my headphones. So... sorry. simply don't understand the rant.


That was about having the bluetooth stack pulled in when you don't have anything using bluetooth... saying your bluetooth devices work fine is... unrelated?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

njsg wrote:
I'd add: also don't remove old versions that make it possible to keep things working while avoiding the dependency change just to "get rid of the old dependency". This has been seen both for gtk+2 vs. gtk+3 and qt4 vs. qt5 in Gentoo.


Question: how large would you like the portage tree to grow?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

njsg wrote:
Gentoo can be blamed for not informing users well enough and not offering an alternative for at least some time. The package manager can deal with different versions and dependencies, it'd be a shame not to use that exactly where it would come in handy.


when you emerge update you don't look at what you are emerging first? at this point, if we're talking about python there were some news a few years back when 3 was introduced. when variables for python were introduced in /etc/make.conf. what exactly do you want more? an eselect news every time they update python?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me it looks a little bit like the OP chose Gentoo but now want's Gentoo not to be like Gentoo because it causes him work.

- John
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

njsg wrote:
axl wrote:
krinn wrote:

It's like if someone would impose bluez on me, i'm not developping any applications that use bluetooth, still i agree bluez is useful for devs that use it.
I'm not a bluez user, i don't have any bluetooth devices, still i agree some users have bluetooth keyboard or whatever and need it.
But i understand if anyone would complain if his system is pulling bluez for no reason.
Even if someone create "kickassbluetooth" that replace bluez, with kick ass functionalities and latest bluetooth technology and features ; i would still qualitify it as useless ; so even i could agree every devs and bluetooth users would praise that new program, i would still not wishing to use this or bluez. It's not because i love live in the past, just that i have no usage of it, bluez or even the new kickassbluetooth.
But i understand if someone would complain bluez was remove while "kickassversion" have not yet reach the level where it could handle his bluetooth device : because at end, that user is just complaining that his keyboard is not working with "kickassbluetooth", making it totally useless, while if he have bluez, it work.

That's python2.7 and 3.6 status: 2.7 is not dead, and users may still have a need for it ; when in 2020 2.7 would be remove, user may still have a need for it, but it's not gentoo dev fault, it's python dev fault and also that user fault (he had time to react).
In the meantime, that very same user may have no usage (yet) of python3.6 and i could understand he then doesn't wish it.


I don't have to care about each little package in my gentoo. My system does and portage does. I didn't put python-3 on your system. Follow the culprit.

Go to meson website, complain to them. https://github.com/mesonbuild/meson . Ask them why they are using python-3 instead of 2. It's not a gentoo thing. It was done upstream. At this point gentoo devs would have to rewrite/fork/patch meson to work with python2. I doubt there's any interest in that.

Going further. What uses meson? Out of my packages I can see: dev-libs/libinput (complain to them coz they use meson, tell them meson is evil and uses python-3, again do you expect gentoo to fork libinput to avoid meson). fuse-common. xorg-proto. libdrm. quite a few packages that use meson. Can you live without them? no. Can you blame gentoo for it? no.


Gentoo can be blamed for not informing users well enough and not offering an alternative for at least some time. The package manager can deal with different versions and dependencies, it'd be a shame not to use that exactly where it would come in handy.

Other than that, no, for the newer versions there's not much Gentoo can do short of making a meson alternative.

axl wrote:

And that bluetooth thing I do not understand. Mine works fine. Both keyboard, mouse, gps AND my headphones. So... sorry. simply don't understand the rant.


That was about having the bluetooth stack pulled in when you don't have anything using bluetooth... saying your bluetooth devices work fine is... unrelated?
but gentoo does inform via the output of emerge showing the user the dependancies... IF upstream decides to use python3 that is upstreams decision and upstreams choice. IF gentoo wants to provide support for it out of the main tree guess what gentoo has todo? provide python3... it isn't rocket science...

This isn't Debian where they will custom-patch every little thing even to the extent of removing short command options. Gentoo aims to follow upstream as close as possible.

Also what is wrong with python3? python is slotted on gentoo and you can have as many versions as are available.. I have 3 versions on my system py27, py34 and py36. I am almost in a position to remove py34 and then prepare for py37
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks khayyam (for eix stuff) just what I needed
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
To me it looks a little bit like the OP chose Gentoo but now want's Gentoo not to be like Gentoo because it causes him work.

- John


++

While (personal opinion) we should have had a heads up on meson coming and needing python3,
it really isn't that big a deal even on what was a python2 only system.
I've spent a total of less than 5 minutes making it work and part of that time was seeing why I needed python 3
and how to adjust flags in package.use for my system which is still set to -> PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7" PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python2_7"

There's far more time spent whining about it than fitting it into a system. JMO.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

njsg wrote:
That was about having the bluetooth stack pulled in when you don't have anything using bluetooth... saying your bluetooth devices work fine is... unrelated?


I still don't get it. What pulls bluetooth if -bluetooth is in useflags? Don't you guys look at the flags in the profile?

It's easy. disable your useflags in make.conf, then run emerge --info and look at the useflags. those are the useflags included in the profile.

In fact my first USE line in make.conf are a list of the useflags in the profile I am using. Some of them crossed out.

It might be unrelated, but sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
njsg wrote:
That was about having the bluetooth stack pulled in when you don't have anything using bluetooth... saying your bluetooth devices work fine is... unrelated?


I still don't get it. What pulls bluetooth if -bluetooth is in useflags? Don't you guys look at the flags in the profile?

You have a problem with the concept of example ; don't you see my first words "It's like if someone would impose bluez on me"... and following that you even see a new program that replace bluez that is name "kickassbluetooth" ; really even that name cannot ring a bell to you?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
axl wrote:
njsg wrote:
That was about having the bluetooth stack pulled in when you don't have anything using bluetooth... saying your bluetooth devices work fine is... unrelated?


I still don't get it. What pulls bluetooth if -bluetooth is in useflags? Don't you guys look at the flags in the profile?

You have a problem with the concept of example ; don't you see my first words "It's like if someone would impose bluez on me"... and following that you even see a new program that replace bluez that is name "kickassbluetooth" ; really even that name cannot ring a bell to you?


nope. honestly I'm clueless. I thought I got it for a second when I considered it was a hypothetical. But I'm thinking it might be a tangent or parabole. It is definitely not literal. Sorry, not an english speaker. Honestly don't compute.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

njsg wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:

This is not about "new is better", this is about what upstream declared dead or alive.


Fortunately, upstream has no power on deciding what users actually want to use. Python2 doesn't become useless just because upstream says so.
You misunderstood my point, or I was bad in pointing out exactly what I meant.

The xorg-server upstream decided to use meson.
The meson upstream decided to use Python3.
The python upstream decided that Python2 is legacy.

None of the above cares about what we want. They are convinced to just have chosen the right tool to do the job.

And it does not lie in the power of the gentoo devs to revert upstream decisions. Furthermore the gentoo devs can only guess what the majority of users might want. Ranting threads in some user forum won't change that.

But it lies in your power. Instead of writing complaints here on the forum, ranters should just go an file bug reports with the responsible upstreams instead. Everyone else is just downstream and can't do more than shrugging their shoulders anyway.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
njsg wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:

This is not about "new is better", this is about what upstream declared dead or alive.


Fortunately, upstream has no power on deciding what users actually want to use. Python2 doesn't become useless just because upstream says so.
You misunderstood my point, or I was bad in pointing out exactly what I meant.

The xorg-server upstream decided to use meson.
The meson upstream decided to use Python3.
The python upstream decided that Python2 is legacy.

None of the above cares about what we want. They are convinced to just have chosen the right tool to do the job.

And it does not lie in the power of the gentoo devs to revert upstream decisions. Furthermore the gentoo devs can only guess what the majority of users might want. Ranting threads in some user forum won't change that.

But it lies in your power. Instead of writing complaints here on the forum, ranters should just go an file bug reports with the responsible upstreams instead. Everyone else is just downstream and can't do more than shrugging their shoulders anyway.


Exactly :twisted:
Gosh not like I haven't been saying that for some time

To object to systemd I understand but to python3? Especially as it is slotted on Gentoo and use targets help control what modules use what runtime is nonsenical

I have py2 and py3 on my system but I can't remember the last time I directly used py27 yet my package.use/py27 is quite large because upstream of packages I CHOOSE to use require py27. What should Gentoo do? Rewrite them to py3 because I just want py3, should they bug upstream?
No.... If I want py3 only I am empowered to either submit patches or bug upstream.

No one in this would will do things juat for you. sometimes if you are lucky your needs and someone else's align and they are more motivated or capable to implement a need that you can use BUT you need to ask yourself have you do e everything you can do to enable your need
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

naib wrote:
To object to systemd I understand but to python3? Especially as it is slotted on Gentoo and use targets help control what modules use what runtime is nonsenical

Exactly.

But ... well ... there is one thing that went really bad:

The news item about Python 3.6 becoming the new default was only shown to users who had Python 3.4 or 3.5 installed.
That is really evil, because PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET got updated from python2_7 to python3_6 as well. But users who had Python-2.7 as their only py did not even get warned, as this news item did not get displayed.
So if I had only Python-2.7 installed, and then got PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET updated without any warning breaking hell loose, I'd be damn pissed off, too.
(The soluition is, of course, to simply put PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python2_7" into your make.conf. But no warning is no warning.)

However, I was intrigued by the question about how many packages really must have Python3 installed. The answer: 89 that are not in dev-python. The one-liner I used is below for anybody to look through for mistakes.

I went through the list (just erase the "| wc -l" at the end) and was surprised to see some packages in there which I never thought would depend this hard on python3, like app-cdr/cdemu or dev-util/catalyst. Okay, the latter has only dropped Python-2.7 support for the live ebuild, but it at least looks like the path.

Everything Gnome related like gedit or totem seem to have dropped Python-2.7 support as well... I am not into Gnome, so I have no idea since when.

But here comes the biggest surprise, at least for me: sys-devel/distcc 8O

Code:
# (Gentoo) 10:31:11 CHH0711 /etc/portage >
time grep -s -R PYTHON_COMPAT $(grep -s -R PYTHON_REQUIRED_USE /usr/portage/ | grep ebuild | grep -v e
class | grep -v "dev-python" | cut -d '/' -f -5 | sort -u) | grep ebuild | grep -v 2_7 | cut -d '/' -f
 -5 | sort -u | wc -l
89

real    0m27.867s
user    0m1.344s
sys     0m26.531s

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether people like it or not, new development will be in python3, 2 is legacy and will not get any new development, though they should bug fix for a couple of years.
It's the same with gtk+2 vs gtk+3.

If someone doesn't like that meson is built ONLY with python3 then rather than ranting, put on your developer hat and make it work with python2. Ta-Da!!!


And no, I'm not running head first into the future, I've masked my share of python3 as well as gtk+3 for years now (mostly waiting for them to really mature).
I've started allowing both onto my systems.


I would imagine that in the early 20th century the same thing happened, "who needs those new fangled auto-mobiles, buggies are good enough".
And they were, until no one made them anymore or made parts for the ones that were still in service.

There is a point where one has to realize that tilting against windmills is futile (this applies to gtk 2 vs 3 and python 2 vs 3)
not systemd where there is still plenty of choice available.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
naib wrote:
To object to systemd I understand but to python3? Especially as it is slotted on Gentoo and use targets help control what modules use what runtime is nonsenical

Exactly.

But ... well ... there is one thing that went really bad:

The news item about Python 3.6 becoming the new default was only shown to users who had Python 3.4 or 3.5 installed.
That is really evil, because PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET got updated from python2_7 to python3_6 as well. But users who had Python-2.7 as their only py did not even get warned, as this news item did not get displayed.
So if I had only Python-2.7 installed, and then got PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET updated without any warning breaking hell loose, I'd be damn pissed off, too.
(The soluition is, of course, to simply put PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python2_7" into your make.conf. But no warning is no warning.)

However, I was intrigued by the question about how many packages really must have Python3 installed. The answer: 89 that are not in dev-python. The one-liner I used is below for anybody to look through for mistakes.

I went through the list (just erase the "| wc -l" at the end) and was surprised to see some packages in there which I never thought would depend this hard on python3, like app-cdr/cdemu or dev-util/catalyst. Okay, the latter has only dropped Python-2.7 support for the live ebuild, but it at least looks like the path.

Everything Gnome related like gedit or totem seem to have dropped Python-2.7 support as well... I am not into Gnome, so I have no idea since when.

But here comes the biggest surprise, at least for me: sys-devel/distcc 8O

Code:
# (Gentoo) 10:31:11 CHH0711 /etc/portage >
time grep -s -R PYTHON_COMPAT $(grep -s -R PYTHON_REQUIRED_USE /usr/portage/ | grep ebuild | grep -v e
class | grep -v "dev-python" | cut -d '/' -f -5 | sort -u) | grep ebuild | grep -v 2_7 | cut -d '/' -f
 -5 | sort -u | wc -l
89

real    0m27.867s
user    0m1.344s
sys     0m26.531s


Oh I agree, how py36 as default was handled was not ... Nice. I had actually converted over as early as I could (I heavily use py36 so there was benefits) so this was easy.
Looking at all the support threads highlighted how bad it was.

I need to double check on my py27 file as it is specific to my install but it is about 30 packages that explicitly need py27
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Oh I agree, how py36 as default was handled was not ... Nice.

I wouldn't say that, the news was made, even buggy, the intention was good ; shit happen :)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
There is a point where one has to realize that tilting against windmills is futile (this applies to gtk 2 vs 3 and python 2 vs 3)
not systemd where there is still plenty of choice available.

The upgrade path most developers are taking from GTK+2 seems to be Qt5, not Gtk+3. The Gnome herd threw its tantrum and the rest of the world said no.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
There is a point where one has to realize that tilting against windmills is futile (this applies to gtk 2 vs 3 and python 2 vs 3)
not systemd where there is still plenty of choice available.

The upgrade path most developers are taking from GTK+2 seems to be Qt5, not Gtk+3. The Gnome herd threw its tantrum and the rest of the world said no.
Hear, hear!
You really made my day! :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
There is a point where one has to realize that tilting against windmills is futile (this applies to gtk 2 vs 3 and python 2 vs 3)
not systemd where there is still plenty of choice available.

The upgrade path most developers are taking from GTK+2 seems to be Qt5, not Gtk+3. The Gnome herd threw its tantrum and the rest of the world said no.
Hear, hear!
You really made my day! :lol:


++

I used to run lxde which is gtk+2 based, well until I realized that I didn't use much of the desktop and just run openbox and tray, as that's all I need.
But when keeping up with it, the lxde devs looked at gtk+3 (which at that time broke previous releases regularly)
and decided that if they were going to have to rewrite it for gtk+3 then they might as well look at qt5 (which breaks things less often than gtk),
which they did and thus lxqt was born.

I have just lately allowed gtk+3 on my system because I want to try a newer version of a package that requires it.
And even at that, I found a bsd based patch for gtk+3 so that at-spi2-* wouldn't be pulled in, which would have required me to run dbus.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:

I have just lately allowed gtk+3 on my system because I want to try a newer version of a package that requires it.
And even at that, I found a bsd based patch for gtk+3 so that at-spi2-* wouldn't be pulled in, which would have required me to run dbus.


If the patch already exists, why not have it in the Gentoo ebuild too?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

njsg wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:

I have just lately allowed gtk+3 on my system because I want to try a newer version of a package that requires it.
And even at that, I found a bsd based patch for gtk+3 so that at-spi2-* wouldn't be pulled in, which would have required me to run dbus.


If the patch already exists, why not have it in the Gentoo ebuild too?


Actually it was there in gentoo, once upon a time, for an older version of gtk+3, but it was only there for one minor release,
not because it didn't work but because someone upstream got their feeling hurt, and gentoo removed it.

From the patch "Make gtk3-atk-bridge an option to avoid unwanted dbus dependency."
Now mind you the original patch was from 2014 and I did have to adjust the line numbers but it works with gtk+-3.22.19.

I think (for most people) they just accept the easy way and let dbus into their system, I just haven't found an overriding need for it ... yet.
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njsg
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:

I think (for most people) they just accept the easy way and let dbus into their system, I just haven't found an overriding need for it ... yet.


I think "the only way" might be more appropriate here.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

njsg wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:

I think (for most people) they just accept the easy way and let dbus into their system, I just haven't found an overriding need for it ... yet.


I think "the only way" might be more appropriate here.


For most people, I agree.

My fear is that when everything depends on dbus, then we'll see the next great push from the kdbus/dbus-1 developers to have it included into the kernel.
If one runs gnome or kde you have to have dbus, and even the lesser DE's are starting to require it.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
 #  eix --only-names --exact --installed-with-use --substring python2 --and --not --substring --use python3
app-misc/resolve-march-native
app-office/gnumeric
app-text/asciidoc
app-text/gnome-doc-utils
dev-lang/yasm
dev-libs/libgamin
dev-libs/libmateweather
dev-libs/libnatspec
dev-libs/libxslt
dev-python/enum34
dev-python/gconf-python
dev-python/graphy
dev-python/ipaddress
dev-python/pygtk
dev-python/pygtkglext
dev-util/gtk-doc
dev-util/itstool
dev-vcs/git
dev-vcs/mercurial
gnome-base/gconf
gnome-base/libglade
mate-base/mate-applets
mate-base/mate-desktop
mate-base/mate-menus
media-gfx/eom
media-gfx/graphviz
net-analyzer/namebench
net-analyzer/net-snmp
net-analyzer/nmap
net-fs/samba
net-libs/libproxy
net-print/cups
sys-libs/ldb
sys-libs/talloc
sys-libs/tdb
sys-libs/tevent
x11-libs/vte
x11-misc/mozo
x11-wm/openbox
That's a lot of packages requiring python 2.
I really don't give a damn about python 2 vs 3. I don't program with python and it's only on my systems because other packages like portage need it. I AM annoyed that the devs can't seem to keep this stuff straight in the portage tree. I had some subversion of python 3 then it was reverted and then the revsion was reverted. I get that python 3 has syntactical differences from python 2. So do various versions of C and C++, but the devs seem to do a good job patching and warning when they don't patch. But can you say that the above list is some sort of weird old fashioned Gentoo that I'm clinging too? samba? cups? gconf? (required by mate).

Maybe those packages could be migrated to python 3? or the flavor of the month of python 3?

Am I really asking to much to ask that portage make this transparent in the official tree?
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
And even at that, I found a bsd based patch for gtk+3 so that at-spi2-* wouldn't be pulled in, which would have required me to run dbus.
Could you pastebin that patch, please?
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