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skorefish
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyenRCJ_4Ww the borg resistance is futile

but please keep it technical here :roll:
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skorefish wrote:
but please keep it technical here :roll:

skorefish ... well, you're repeatedly asking a political, rather than technical, question, ie:

skorefish wrote:
so should/Can we get rid of ....? Or is there a way to coexist?"

What form of "coexistance" do you think systemd's "strict policy" suggests?

best ... khay
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skorefish
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What form of "coexistance" do you think systemd's "strict policy" suggests?

well yeah, @ the moment the coexistence of the borg...

Quote:
well, you're repeatedly asking a political, rather than technical, question, ie:


But i want technical answers how to preserve openrc. Are there wrappers, forks, projects stopping systemd 's influence. please post them here
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Without_systemd
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GNOME/GNOME_Without_systemd
https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/red-hat-flag/
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skorefish wrote:
Quote:
Now unfortunately applicications (4 plus one meta) are now depending on systemd and that is 5 too many but what should Gentoo do?


Making a wiki how explaining the problem for the average user,listing these applications, and explaining how to contact upstream.
You know you could do things like this... moaning about a problem does actually facilitate a reasonable solution...

Anyway as people would rather talk about a problem rather than start anything... I made a wiki page: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Hard_dependencies_on_systemd
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Naib wrote:
Gentoo should not become some anti systemd platform.

khayyam wrote:
Had to laugh at this ... no, it should roll over and accept systemd's "strict policy" of "push[ing] the distros to standardize on the same components for the base system" ... something which has mostly come to pass because there wasn't much in the way of opposition.

Naib wrote:
It has not be stated Gentoo should be silent and become another vassal distro. This is not a binary condition of either accept&embrace systemd OR raise walls.

Naib ... you've completely missed the point, systemd's "strict policy" makes it so that any non-conformance is tantamount to an "anti systemd platform". So, as far as systemd is concerned, it is entirely a "binary condition" ... but, yet, you somehow think that meaningful opposition would be too extreme an "anti systemd" position. That's was had me laugh.

best ... khay


khayyam, and you are completely missing the point. I don't give a fsck about Systemd viewpoint. If they want to view the usage in absolutes of with us or against us then let them. It is easy for systemd developers to attach a label and then attack based upon that label (without ever validating said label)... Distro foo doesn't use systemd ERGO they are anti-systemd and we can ignore them and trash their criticism. Distro bar does use systemd ERGO their views are valid. Gentoo offers the choice and the developers do not know how to pigeonhole gentoo and this explains the outburst from Pottering with the veiled threat about udev (which spawned eudev as a contingency plan)

What I want to know is why do you cherish Systemd's view because I really don't care what they think yet you are imposing their view on these discussion when I personally really don't care what they think or do so why do you? if you care so much use systemd
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Anyway as people would rather talk about a problem rather than start anything... I made a wiki page: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Hard_dependancies_on_systemd#A_Systemd_free_system

Wrt logind: we have sys-auth/elogind available in Portage. Anything requiring logind can theoretically be patched to configure with elogind alternatively to systemd. So far most upstreams were receptive to such patches. IINM all that is required for Gnome would be to package one of the latest versions, unfortunately Gnome team in Gentoo is understaffed and the various overlay attempts to deliver up to date versions do not seem to be interested in submitting their work (or adhering to the necessary standards for Gnome team).

I'm running Plasma Wayland fine with openrc+elogind.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Naib wrote:
Anyway as people would rather talk about a problem rather than start anything... I made a wiki page: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Hard_dependancies_on_systemd#A_Systemd_free_system

Wrt logind: we have sys-auth/elogind available in Portage. Anything requiring logind can theoretically be patched to configure with elogind alternatively to systemd. So far most upstreams were receptive to such patches. IINM all that is required for Gnome would be to package one of the latest versions, unfortunately Gnome team in Gentoo is understaffed and the various overlay attempts to deliver up to date versions do not seem to be interested in submitting their work (or adhering to the necessary standards for Gnome team).

I'm running Plasma Wayland fine with openrc+elogind.


Good point, I have updated the wiki page with a link to the forum thread where systemd-free gnome guidance exists.


It isn't wayland that has a systemd dependancy, it is mutter with wayland USE flag (mutter then needs dbus with systemd support -> systemd a requirement)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skorefish wrote:
but please keep it technical here :roll:

That's the problem there, because you cannot.

There's just no technical reason to depends on a specific init system for most of these programs ; what is going on is that systemd is made to replace and extinguish other alternative, by providing useless features (for an init system) and making sure the whole package is use.

And that's systemd, so many useless components for an init system, that higher the dependency over the whole package (if you want remove systemd, you will lost all those components, from dns resolution to network handling and init of course ; worst, if you wait too much, you may lost them without any alternative).
Just like you, you aren't happy with systemd, glad you could still switch back to openrc : but what would had happen if there was no openrc anymore?

When the battle end, assuming systemd has won it : no more other init, no more other (whatever systemd component has copy and include in itself)... you cannot remove systemd because you cannot use something else ; now the influence and power is fully under the hands of who own systemd.
And this owner could do whatever he wish: they want kill ipv4, easy, remove any ipv4 support in systemd. So systemd's owner is now controlling linux.

You cannot speak about technical value there, because logind value is not the question, and elogind is a proof it is not. Else logind would had not been a systemd component, and Gnome would had depend on a component anyone could had use even when not using systemd, and someone could had create other logind alternative, that might be even more valuable technically speaking.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm looking forward. What happens when gtk becomes dependent on systemd because of ports from gnome? RedHat generates a lot of code. It holds a storied place in Linux history, but the present RedHat is as inimical to the spirit of Linux as Windows is. IMO, systemd is not Linux. FreeBSD is closer to Linux than RedHat/systemd. Just because it can run Linux applications doesn't make it Linux. I run Linux applications on XP using MingW. That doesn't make XP Linux. The RedHat philosophy is much closer to the Windows philosophy (make everything monolithic and interdependent, pulling as much as possible into the kernel) than the Linux philosophy ( small standalone applications glued together with system tools and not pulled into the kernel).
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn your absolutely right. That's why i compare sytemd with the borg.
But I want to redefine keeping it technical in this way.
Please post technical solutions to keep openrc (and other init systems alive)
problem -> solution

a good initiative like naib did https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Hard_dependancies_on_systemd#A_Systemd_free_system

for example

Quote:
What happens when gtk becomes dependent on systemd because of ports from gnome?

if this happens post it on https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Hard_dependancies_on_systemd#A_Systemd_free_system

i found a fork of systemd but i rode it was inpossible to keep up with RH https://github.com/Tarnyko/uselessd

Has someone the talent to write a little introduction for A Systemd free system.
Telling why we need it and what is at stake. please brief and short

asturm wrote:

I'm running Plasma Wayland fine with openrc+elogind.

did you have some trouble doing this?

i added link to Hard_dependancies_on_systemd on https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Without_systemd in the troubleshouting part


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
What I want to know is why do you cherish Systemd's view because I really don't care what they think yet you are imposing their view on these discussion when I personally really don't care what they think or do so why do you? if you care so much use systemd

Naib ... when you use words like "cherish", or suggest I'm "imposing [my] view", or ask why I "care so much", then it's a clear sign you're engaging in a rhetorical strategy designed to make it seem like I have some personal bent, and so don't have, or haven't made, a substantive argument. This is little more than an ad hominum ... and I reject it as such.

If you want to argue that such "policy" of "standardization", "uniform integration", "push", etc, has no relevance then I can only point to the obvious fact that this is the reality, that is where the wider linux ecosystem is at ... systemd having been adopted by the great majority. So, "what they do" inevitably effects me, as does the "choice" made by gentoo to support that "push".

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Naib wrote:
What I want to know is why do you cherish Systemd's view because I really don't care what they think yet you are imposing their view on these discussion when I personally really don't care what they think or do so why do you? if you care so much use systemd

Naib ... when you use words like "cherish", or suggest I'm "imposing [my] view", or ask why I "care so much", then it's a clear sign you're engaging in a rhetorical strategy designed to make it seem like I have some personal bent, and so don't have, or haven't made, a substantive argument. This is little more than an ad hominum ... and I reject it as such.

If you want to argue that such "policy" of "standardization", "uniform integration", "push", etc, has no relevance then I can only point to the obvious fact that this is the reality, that is where the wider linux ecosystem is at ... systemd having been adopted by the great majority. So, "what they do" inevitably effects me, as does the "choice" made by gentoo to support that "push".

best ... khay


please if you want to discuss this further do it on: The Politics of systemd Part 3

Here it's about ... technical solutions to keep openrc (and other init systems alive)

I don't want this thread locked again 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Naib wrote:
What I want to know is why do you cherish Systemd's view because I really don't care what they think yet you are imposing their view on these discussion when I personally really don't care what they think or do so why do you? if you care so much use systemd

Naib ... when you use words like "cherish", or suggest I'm "imposing [my] view", or ask why I "care so much", then it's a clear sign you're engaging in a rhetorical strategy designed to make it seem like I have some personal bent, and so don't have, or haven't made, a substantive argument. This is little more than an ad hominum ... and I reject it as such.

If you want to argue that such "policy" of "standardization", "uniform integration", "push", etc, has no relevance then I can only point to the obvious fact that this is the reality, that is where the wider linux ecosystem is at ... systemd having been adopted by the great majority. So, "what they do" inevitably effects me, as does the "choice" made by gentoo to support that "push".

best ... khay

khayyam I am just reflecting back to you your own rhetoric. go re-read how you have responded to me in a few posts and reflect on that THEN read what you just wrote and attribute it to what you write. Then we can talk
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:

And that's systemd, so many useless components for an init system, that higher the dependency over the whole package


It's a naming problem. Try substituting "svchost.exe" for "systemd" as you examine functions, and it makes a lot more sense. Doesn't mean I like it, but it makes more sense.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
khayyam I am just reflecting back to you your own rhetoric. go re-read how you have responded to me in a few posts and reflect on that THEN read what you just wrote and attribute it to what you write. Then we can talk

Naib ... that's classic OTW bleed over. So, no, you go read, reflect, and then ... hah!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Naib wrote:
khayyam I am just reflecting back to you your own rhetoric. go re-read how you have responded to me in a few posts and reflect on that THEN read what you just wrote and attribute it to what you write. Then we can talk

Naib ... that's classic OTW bleed over. So, no, you go read, reflect, and then ... hah!

*sigh* ... lets just assign a label and dismiss the label without validating the assignment...

khayyam wrote:

Naib wrote:
Gentoo should not become some anti systemd platform.

Had to laugh at this ... no, it should roll over and accept systemd's "strict policy" of "push[ing] the distros to standardize on the same components for the base system" ... something which has mostly come to pass because there wasn't much in the way of opposition.
best ... khay


khayyam wrote:
Naib wrote:
Gentoo should not become some anti systemd platform.

khayyam wrote:
Had to laugh at this ... no, it should roll over and accept systemd's "strict policy" of "push[ing] the distros to standardize on the same components for the base system" ... something which has mostly come to pass because there wasn't much in the way of opposition.

Naib wrote:
It has not be stated Gentoo should be silent and become another vassal distro. This is not a binary condition of either accept&embrace systemd OR raise walls.

Naib ... you've completely missed the point, systemd's "strict policy" makes it so that any non-conformance is tantamount to an "anti systemd platform". So, as far as systemd is concerned, it is entirely a "binary condition" ... but, yet, you somehow think that meaningful opposition would be too extreme an "anti systemd" position. That's was had me laugh.

best ... khay



You are asserting that systemd perspective should be applied here while the rest of us are advocating getting on with being gentoo and being about choice. What systemd and systemd dev's think is moot from the point of view of Gentoo.
This is getting tedious, ill just let the moderators deal with you
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADMIN EDIT: Merged from the "Report violations, duplicates, misplaced posts, etc." thread after this one was locked by JRG.. --pjp

User: khayyam
Topic: should/Can we get rid of ....part2
Post: post 8242192
Reason: constant derailment and hostility. such threads are NOT todo with the politics of systemd (plenty of those) these are meant to lay constructive workings as to how to maximise users choice. Already had one thread on this valid topic locked because those participating did not actually know what they are talking about and now another is going this way due to unsolicited hostilities as people would rather talk about how eeevil systemd is RATHER than actually doing something.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skorefish,

A long time ago all linux distros were like this
Gentoo can still be made to work that way.

That page could do with an update. I'm using Mate-1.20 which is not in the tree yet.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At first view I kind of like this one.

Quote:

A modern Gentoo base system but without all the bells and whistles added in recent years. Olde Fashioned Gentooee is more about what you don't get. You do not get:

udev - instead a static dev is used
systemd - why would you want it anyway
pulseaudio - I've not known this to actually add anything
hotplug support
auto mounting of any sort - use mount by label
auto module loading
device detection in Xorg
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a list for howto inconvenient Gentoo, which is only tangential to avoiding systemd. The latter is pretty effortless, at least for people not using Gnome.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
It isn't wayland that has a systemd dependancy, it is mutter with wayland USE flag (mutter then needs dbus with systemd support -> systemd a requirement)
Which would be an error in the mutter ebuild. It should depend on dbus with either systemd or elogind USE flag. The dbus systemd USE flag only adds talking to systemd-login, which can be elogind as well.

However, both the mutter-3.22.4-r1 and mutter-3.24.4 ebuilds have this in their COMMON_DEPEND:
Code:
   wayland? (
      >=dev-libs/libinput-1.4
      >=dev-libs/wayland-1.6.90
      >=dev-libs/wayland-protocols-1.7
      >=media-libs/mesa-10.3[egl,gbm,wayland]
      sys-apps/systemd
      virtual/libgudev:=
      >=virtual/libudev-136:=
      x11-base/xorg-server[wayland]
      x11-libs/libdrm:=
   )
I'd call that a very hard dependency...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Naib wrote:
It isn't wayland that has a systemd dependancy, it is mutter with wayland USE flag (mutter then needs dbus with systemd support -> systemd a requirement)
Which would be an error in the mutter ebuild. It should depend on dbus with either systemd or elogind USE flag. The dbus systemd USE flag only adds talking to systemd-login, which can be elogind as well.

However, both the mutter-3.22.4-r1 and mutter-3.24.4 ebuilds have this in their COMMON_DEPEND:
Code:
   wayland? (
      >=dev-libs/libinput-1.4
      >=dev-libs/wayland-1.6.90
      >=dev-libs/wayland-protocols-1.7
      >=media-libs/mesa-10.3[egl,gbm,wayland]
      sys-apps/systemd
      virtual/libgudev:=
      >=virtual/libudev-136:=
      x11-base/xorg-server[wayland]
      x11-libs/libdrm:=
   )
I'd call that a very hard dependency...


Exactly :twisted:
The packages I have identified have a very hard dependency (as you put it) on systemd, ie unconditionally stating sys-apps/systemd in DEPEND or RDEPEND

1. gnome-base/gnome - GNOME depends on logind [1]. There are ways to produce a Systemd-free GNOME [2]
2. x11-wm/mutter (USE="wayland" emerge mutter) - Mutter's native (KMS) backend requires systemd-logind. Building the native backend is optional, and enabled by the configure script's --enable-native-backend option. This option is turned on when the wayland USE flag is set. Mutter 3.28.1 allows building the native backend with sys-auth/elogind as an alternative to systemd, but this version is not in Gentoo's repository yet.
3. www-misc/profile-sync-daemon - This package requires systemd. Upstream does not want to provide init scripts for other inits
4. net-misc/netctl This package requires systemd. unit files only provided. makes use of unitfiles and systemctl to interact with the system
5. app-admin/abrt - This package requires systemd. This makes use of journald and #include systemd.h is intertwined in the code


#1 is being managed but is a cut&shut job and
#3 is just a unitfile and could be managed by an OpenRC init.d helper package ( I am looking into making a stub package)
#4 bash scripts with unitfiles but also .... intertwined with systemctl... would be too much effort to unpick. rewrite would be better or ignore/dismiss
#5 too intertwined at source level. rewrite would be better or ignore/dismiss

it was #2 that worried me. I suspected it was an ebuild error as I couldn't see why it should depend on systemd YET the use flag combination demands that (and then udev needs to be rebuilt to support systemd). I would like to know why mutter+wayland = systemd but I have not been able to find out and I would rather not attempt to run it on my system nor open a bugreport to state error without infomation.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me that logind ought to be a virtual that can be satisfied by either sys-apps/systemd or sys-auth/elogind. Then we need to modify packages to reflect that requirement for virtual/logind.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
I would like to know why mutter+wayland = systemd but I have not been able to find out and I would rather not attempt to run it on my system nor open a bugreport to state error without infomation.

Look at this commit message: mutter: allow building with elogind
Quote:
This commit allows building mutter with elogind, which is systemd-logind extracted into a standalone package. This allows using mutter with its native-backend ( and consequently wayland ) enabled on distros which use init systems other than systemd.

According to this commit message, mutter[wayland] 3.29.1+ should NOT pull in sys-apps/systemd.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike155 wrote:
Naib wrote:
I would like to know why mutter+wayland = systemd but I have not been able to find out and I would rather not attempt to run it on my system nor open a bugreport to state error without infomation.

Look at this commit message: mutter: allow building with elogind
Quote:
This commit allows building mutter with elogind, which is systemd-logind extracted into a standalone package. This allows using mutter with its native-backend ( and consequently wayland ) enabled on distros which use init systems other than systemd.

According to this commit message, mutter[wayland] 3.29.1+ should NOT pull in sys-apps/systemd.
but practice does not align with theory :twisted:
read the ebuild, do the emerge and you will see systemd is being pulled in. This does point towards an ebuild bug and if so that is great as this can easily be fixed leaving annoying archlinux packages hard-depending on systemd
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