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asturm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, erm, check the version numbers. For the existing ebuilds in tree (without a backport) this is not a bug.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Well, erm, check the version numbers. For the existing ebuilds in tree (without a backport) this is not a bug.

oh yer :) I added a link to the gnome commit.

This leaves 3 packages with no workaround. One is viable as it is just unit files... the other two are intertwined too deeply with systemd
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
This leaves 3 packages with no workaround. One is viable as it is just unit files... the other two are intertwined too deeply with systemd
I'd say that 3 out of 19,557 packages is a wonderfully low quote. (~0.00015%)

That hardly looks like a take-over... :twisted:
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed. Conspiracy theories about a hostile systemd takeover are greatly exaggerated.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Conspiracy theories about a hostile systemd takeover are greatly exaggerated.


Perhaps.

But I've always heard the correct way to boil a frog is to do so slowly ;)

:lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Naib wrote:
This leaves 3 packages with no workaround. One is viable as it is just unit files... the other two are intertwined too deeply with systemd
I'd say that 3 out of 19,557 packages is a wonderfully low quote. (~0.00015%)

That hardly looks like a take-over... :twisted:
very true but it took what I would say additional work to actually keep this as low as it is...

logind --> elogind
udev --> eudev

had systemd been designed to truly be modular where parts could be used on its own then effort would not have been spent to implement elogind or eudev.
Thats what I take from this and it is a shame.

GNOME and elogind isn't quite painless as I understand it and does take some effort but it is still better than not (if you like GNOME). elogind does potentially provide some benefits (cgroups and cleanup) so if this is adopted instead of logind there should not a general trend to link against systemd out of convenience


That said using statistics to refute it is a slippery slope. why should any package depend on an init system in such a way
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
udev --> eudev

But so far that fork was not necessary to avoid systemd, building udev from the upstream tarball continues to work fine.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Naib wrote:
udev --> eudev

But so far that fork was not necessary to avoid systemd, building udev from the upstream tarball continues to work fine.
for now. Remember the aim is to make it non-build-able as a standalone

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html
Quote:
Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case you
haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we can drop
that support entirely


Remember the veiled thread from Pottering directed directly at Gentoo? https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html
Quote:
Also note that at that point we intend to move udev onto kdbus as
transport, and get rid of the userspace-to-userspace netlink-based
tranport udev used so far. Unless the systemd-haters prepare another
kdbus userspace until then this will effectively also mean that we will
not support non-systemd systems with udev anymore starting at that
point. Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Conspiracy theories about a hostile systemd takeover are greatly exaggerated.
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Perhaps.

But I've always heard the correct way to boil a frog is to do so slowly ;)
Bingo.
It's not a systemdbust takeover; it's a RedHatGooglePlex takeover, reducing Gentoo to a testbed and making sure it never again considers stepping outside that boundary.

We're fine with you so long as you stay in your hutch, and we can use your work to build ours, and your users to shake-test our crappy leechware. (They're rather good at QA by comparison to everyone else, including our "developers".)

If you show any signs of stepping into competition with our scam, though, we will come down on you like a tonne of toxic bricks.

We've already taken over; now we're changing the ground rules so that the sociopolitical lock-in is complete.
There is nothing you lusers can do about it. (As your geeky unpleasant devs are completely under our cargo-cult sway, or odiously looking for us to hire them.)

Have a nice day, now. :-)
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asturm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erm...

...anyways,
Naib wrote:
for now. Remember the aim is to make it non-build-able as a standalone

Not the only empty words that (so far) never became reality, in my POV countering it with the threat of a fork would have sufficed. But that's getting offtopic in here, I just mean to say that udev -> eudev is only a possible future consequence.

Naib wrote:
oh yer :) I added a link to the gnome commit.

Adding to that, Gentoo Gnome team is looking for testers of any elogind-backports to gnome-*/ packages.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Naib wrote:
This leaves 3 packages with no workaround. One is viable as it is just unit files... the other two are intertwined too deeply with systemd
I'd say that 3 out of 19,557 packages is a wonderfully low quote. (~0.00015%)

That hardly looks like a take-over... :twisted:


That's true ... insofar as gentoo.

But how many binary distros are systemd free, a handful of very small niche players.

And in the scheme of things gentoo is a small niche player itself.

Once enough packages get written with sys-d in mind for all the binary players, will gentoo be able to stand against them,
I don't think they have enough clout and factor in some of the gentoo devs being in favor of it.
I think in a few years the landscape will change.

RH's goal is to be the controller of linux world, kind of the linux version of MS, IMO. And sys-d is just a wrapper that might get them there or at least part way.
Everyone forgets that MS didn't start off as the big bad behemoth that they are now, they got that way one little step at a time.

Having said all the above, could I be dead wrong about both the goals/end game? Yep. hindsight is always 20-20, forward looking not so much.

Me, I'll just keep my options open and do my best to avail myself and those who might listen to me, with keeping sys-d at arms length.

Anyway, y'all have fun with the back and forth. *big wave*
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Erm...
well !plunk comes to mind :) happy few years

asturm wrote:

...anyways,
Naib wrote:
for now. Remember the aim is to make it non-build-able as a standalone

Not the only empty words that (so far) never became reality, in my POV countering it with the threat of a fork would have sufficed. But that's getting offtopic in here.

I found the warning to gentoo and updated my post.

You could view it as empty words BUT if you read around when this was occuring it was all around kdbus being "forced" into the kernel and then systemd+kernel released in lockstep, udev communications via kdbus.... an NSA coder was vocal on the mailing list as to how bad the concept was...

If kdbus had been accepted as "yet another" IPC (even though plenty already exist, even though all that was needed was dbus code improvements...) we would be having a completely different discussion. Remember this was also enthusiastically accepted by gentoo dev's when it was ONLY a proposal... A proposal being merged into the gentoo patchset is very odd (considering the effort to get alpha software added...) - link to bug to finally remove it: https://bugs.gentoo.org/576614

Don't think for a minute this has gone away... KDBUS maybe dead but the wish for some IPC exists and equally a bespoke one as BUS1 is still around...

Anyway... nice little mini audit kicked off by a concerned user. In short Systemd hasn't "invaded" everywhere with only five packages "needed" systemd. One is being resolved upstream via elogind, another can be managed via elogind if the end-user wishes the other 3....

The real point is it should not have gotten like this, people should not have had to create elogind to produce something which is of use but independent of another monolithic application. such things should be buildable individually. developers effort has been spent to unpick it, developers effort is being spent in keeping it in-sync. Equally veil threats should not have been targeted at gentoo forcing developers effort to hedge their bets whether something that has become quite key becomes fully absorbed into systemd.

This type of vangard over Systemd is a waste of effort and if their developers only worked with the wider community there could have been soo much more advancement...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Naib wrote:
udev --> eudev

But so far that fork was not necessary to avoid systemd, building udev from the upstream tarball continues to work fine.


One more post :)

Can any of us say that eudev had no effect on udev still being available as standalone?

If no threat would they have just done away with udev as standalone software, there was the threat of it, whether real or just hyperbole.

No one really knows, outside of LP/the sys-d core developers.

Just something to think about.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Can any of us say that eudev had no effect on udev still being available as standalone?

I don't think eudev is in any way relevant to systemd upstream, considering how they usually operate.

Naib wrote:
This type of vangard over Systemd is a waste of effort and if their developers only worked with the wider community

Yeah. Never will we get back those hours spent to make up for that.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why is systemd pulled in?

Most packages depending on systemd, actually depend on systemd or OpenRC or some other init system. Portage will attempt to install the first in the list, which might be systemd.

Portage cannot magically guess which init system the user prefers. USE flags defined user preferences.


https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Without_systemd

Can someone confirm this information is still correct and/ or complete.
When i tried systemd out i had to add
Code:
GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX= "init=/usr/lib/systemd/systemd"
in /etc/default/grub
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
asturm wrote:
Naib wrote:
udev --> eudev

But so far that fork was not necessary to avoid systemd, building udev from the upstream tarball continues to work fine.
for now. Remember the aim is to make it non-build-able as a standalone

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html
Quote:
Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case you
haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we can drop
that support entirely
That was 6 years ago. Let me lean out of the window and predict that another 6 years won't make this happen also. ;-)

Naib wrote:
Remember the veiled thread from Pottering directed directly at Gentoo? https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html
Quote:
Also note that at that point we intend to move udev onto kdbus as
transport, and get rid of the userspace-to-userspace netlink-based
tranport udev used so far. Unless the systemd-haters prepare another
kdbus userspace until then this will effectively also mean that we will
not support non-systemd systems with udev anymore starting at that
point. Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call.
Yes, and kdbus is dead. The last bits of its support have been removed from systemd this spring. :-D

So much for the Poettering threats... :lol:

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
Naib wrote:
This leaves 3 packages with no workaround. One is viable as it is just unit files... the other two are intertwined too deeply with systemd
I'd say that 3 out of 19,557 packages is a wonderfully low quote. (~0.00015%)

That hardly looks like a take-over... :twisted:


That's true ... insofar as gentoo.

But how many binary distros are systemd free, a handful of very small niche players.
Of course. For a small binary distribution with a limited set of packages it is by far easier to patch the few for their favourite non-systemd-setup. But big distributions really have to make an educated choice.
However, those "big ones" are either Red Hat or Debian derivates. So the real sad thing was Debian to surrender to Red Hat...

Anon-E-moose wrote:
And in the scheme of things gentoo is a small niche player itself.
True, too. But then source distributions have it by far easier to do what they want. We can even have both openrc and systemd chosen by the user.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Once enough packages get written with sys-d in mind for all the binary players, will gentoo be able to stand against them,
I don't think they have enough clout and factor in some of the gentoo devs being in favor of it.
I think in a few years the landscape will change.
Well, apart from a tiny fraction, and I currently can't even remember which, the only dependency is systemd-login. I think I once saw a systemd-journald dependency, but thats it.

And what else would you want from systemd anyway? With eudev and elogind over 99% are covered. At least for now.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
RH's goal is to be the controller of linux world, kind of the linux version of MS, IMO. And sys-d is just a wrapper that might get them there or at least part way.
Everyone forgets that MS didn't start off as the big bad behemoth that they are now, they got that way one little step at a time.
Well, that isn't true anymore. In the end Microsoft failed to "take over the world", and Red Hat will fail, too. Too much variety in each user base.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Well, that isn't true anymore. In the end Microsoft failed to "take over the world", and Red Hat will fail, too. Too much variety in each user base.

Are you sure they have fail?
How many OS (true operating system, not any derivative of another one) you know "today" ?
How many of them are for PC base hosts?
How many PC can you buy with non MS Windows install on them (i'm not speaking about PC without any OS, i'm speaking about ones with an OS that is not MS Windows), and if you remove all linux : how many PC can you buy with an OS that is install but not Windows and linux base? (hint: it's between 0 and 0)

The only one that was well know is OS/2, MS has kill it, but more, MS has manage to kill anyone that was wishing to make any new OS for PC.

Unlike you, i think it's a true success.
and make no mistake, linux has only survive because MS didn't want it dead, linux is the excuse for MS about its domininant position. and even apple was kept alive by MS.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I was going to say OS X but by market share you're still correct. That having been said, Linux, by its mere existence, I believe, acts as a check on Microsoft.

- John
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
That having been said, Linux, by its mere existence, I believe, acts as a check on Microsoft.

- John


True, and why we still see MS's presence in the free software arena.
I don't think they've given up on wanting linux to disappear, they just aren't trying near as hard (as least in public view)

To me RH dislikes MS so much that they are (right or wrong) trying to make linux be like windows, one source, sys-d becoming the gateway to the OS, etc.
I started out a long time ago, when not only was MS dos available, but CPM for dos also.
I've owned Windows from version 1.0, and several versions of the sdk.

I remember during the win 3.x days, you started in dos then ran windows, then they started merging and thus modern windows was born.
And the rest is history.

Thankfully we still have choice right now. But complacency (that things will always be that way) is the harbinger of doom.
Ask the buggy whip manufacturers. :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Naib wrote:
asturm wrote:
Naib wrote:
udev --> eudev

But so far that fork was not necessary to avoid systemd, building udev from the upstream tarball continues to work fine.
for now. Remember the aim is to make it non-build-able as a standalone

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html
Quote:
Yes, udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end, in case you
haven't noticed it yet. I am looking forward to the day when we can drop
that support entirely
That was 6 years ago. Let me lean out of the window and predict that another 6 years won't make this happen also. ;-)

Naib wrote:
Remember the veiled thread from Pottering directed directly at Gentoo? https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html
Quote:
Also note that at that point we intend to move udev onto kdbus as
transport, and get rid of the userspace-to-userspace netlink-based
tranport udev used so far. Unless the systemd-haters prepare another
kdbus userspace until then this will effectively also mean that we will
not support non-systemd systems with udev anymore starting at that
point. Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call.
Yes, and kdbus is dead. The last bits of its support have been removed from systemd this spring. :-D

So much for the Poettering threats... :lol:


It is true these threats did not materialised BUT you are overlooking the actions that occured to realise the threat and alot of this was around KDBUS.
It's easy to say "herpderp no KDBUS" but herpderp at one point it did exist, at one point it was MERGED into Gentoo sources. These were not some threats these were threats with action to realise an end state and there is a world of difference between the two.
There is still a drive for a kernel level IPC developed with systemd in mind (to support dbus messages) to entangle udev so the threat and attempts to realise have not gone away

Had it just been idle threats I would be in the same boat as you.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Well, I was going to say OS X but by market share you're still correct. That having been said, Linux, by its mere existence, I believe, acts as a check on Microsoft.
- John

Even if OS/X have a x% market share, it wound't change a thing, OS/X is just a BSD derivative, and i think it was create when mac became PC themselves (intel cpu, pci express...) ; and the not Windows and linux base remains at 0 then.

You see exactly why microsoft has win, even OS/X was made on another OS rather a new one.
Or google that goes with linux kernel for android, or even gentoo for chromiumOS.

Nobody is creating a new OS, and this for years. No competitor for Windows so. And that's for PC, but non PC market is also affect, even super computers or phone now.
Actually i don't know what OS the PS4 is running, but it could be the only one with an OS that is not made of Windows or linux (bsd & the like of course).
I don't know for the XBOX, but it's microsoft anyway.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Well, I was going to say OS X but by market share you're still correct. That having been said, Linux, by its mere existence, I believe, acts as a check on Microsoft.

- John
That was all good and well. Until their new, friendlier, embracing of Linux.

I'm curious to see if they're going to "outsource" the core of their OS to Linux while providing the polish as what they bring to the table (Apple / BSD). I think that would save them a lot of money in an area where profit is disappearing (if not gone already). I think they'd gain a lot by reducing development and staffing costs. They could come up with some catchphrase for the PHBs ... the LEAD stack -- hey, they used "take it to the cloud" (Linux / Exchange / AD). Exchange seems to be the main reason people "can't" leave MS. Add Office and their past struggles look like little more than a wobble after an uppercut. They could then easily partner with RedHat to push systemd NT. And we all know what happens when you partner with Microsoft.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
John R. Graham wrote:
Well, I was going to say OS X but by market share you're still correct. That having been said, Linux, by its mere existence, I believe, acts as a check on Microsoft.

- John
That was all good and well. Until their new, friendlier, embracing of Linux.

I'm curious to see if they're going to "outsource" the core of their OS to Linux while providing the polish as what they bring to the table (Apple / BSD). I think that would save them a lot of money in an area where profit is disappearing (if not gone already). I think they'd gain a lot by reducing development and staffing costs. They could come up with some catchphrase for the PHBs ... the LEAD stack -- hey, they used "take it to the cloud" (Linux / Exchange / AD). Exchange seems to be the main reason people "can't" leave MS. Add Office and their past struggles look like little more than a wobble after an uppercut. They could then easily partner with RedHat to push systemd NT. And we all know what happens when you partner with Microsoft.
MS focus is the cloud. They have piled soo much money into their datacentres and they are the best (I have toured a couple). year on year they are seeing 10% more linux VM's and are expecting to exceed 50% this year.
They gave windows10 away from free, OEM is worth about $30 (to the end-user... less to MS)... there is no money in it for Microsoft anymore. Couple that with the continued support and security issues. I would not be surprised if the linux for windows abstract layer is means to realise windows applications on linux and MS provides a desktop environment and a windows-linux compat layer.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Actually i don't know what OS the PS4 is running, but it could be the only one with an OS that is not made of Windows or linux (bsd & the like of course).

The PS4 runs a heavily hacked up FreeBSD (and the irony is the parts they don't contribute back upstream are how it usually gets pwned).

Fun fact: their other 3 consoles run some BSD variant too.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
They could then easily partner with RedHat to push systemd NT. And we all know what happens when you partner with Microsoft.
They wouldn't even have to partner with RedHat. Easy enough to wave enough billions in front of the stockholders. 177 million shares outstanding at $147 a share. $13 billion buys a 50% interest on the open market. Make it a $30 billion tender offer in M$ stock and they will leap at it.

Last edited by Tony0945 on Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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