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skorefish
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: (should)/Can we get rid of systemd ??? Reply with quote

hello,

A few years ago, i started with gentoo using openrc and everything worked fantastic....
After installing it on all my machines, i started helping out friends installing gentoo too.
Then it happened, ... Can you install systemd he asked? (and kde wayland)
Why not, ...

Now strange things started to happen. Sometimes I need to reboot the system.
Firefox sometimes hangs, systemclock sometimes changes time, ...
Configuring systemd isn't so intuitive, and doesn't start faster. Is this the new wicrosof linux 10?


I don't understand why we need systemd anyway. Can we just fork it, get rid of all the clutter
an rewrite the strict necessary parts as modules for openrc.

Is it still possible to choose openrc for the future or is it a dead end?
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bunder
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can still use openrc, although i don't know how easy it is to switch back and forth.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skorefish,

You used to be able to install both and switch between them with the init= on the kernel command line.

No systemd flamefest in this thread please. We have a thread just for that, now in its third part.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Run emerge -cpv systemd. See what wants it installed, then go down that list and figure out which ones will work without it, and which ones you'll work without.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: (should)/Can we get rid of systemd ??? Reply with quote

skorefish wrote:
Can you install systemd he asked? (and kde wayland)

It is certainly not necessary for KDE Plasma Wayland sessions, if that was given as reasoning. This works just fine with openrc + elogind.
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skorefish
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is certainly not necessary for KDE Plasma Wayland sessions,


:D :D :D I 'm going to create a multiboot systemd -vs openrc
NeddySeagoon wrote:

Quote:

The whole reason for systemd to exist is for Red Hat to make money.
Systemd is a wrapper around GPL code that allows the GPL code to be used via a remote procedure call instead of conventional linking.
That will allow Red Hed to ship binaries that call (not link to) GPL code without needing to provide the sources.
While it complies with the requirements of the GPL, its purpose is to provide a way to evade the spirit of the GPL.


If this is true, i want to get rid of systemd as soon as possible :twisted: I'm sick of binary systems
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: (should)/Can we get rid of systemd ??? Reply with quote

skorefish wrote:
Then it happened, ... Can you install systemd he asked? (and kde wayland). Why not, ...

skorefish ... and the answer should have been, no ... for any number of reasons, not least of which is prescience of said "strange things". I get at least one call every couple of weeks from someone desperate because their install (normally Ubuntu) is doing "strange things", and I tell them I can't, or won't, help ... because the time when I could reasonably have done so has passed.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
No systemd flamefest in this thread please. We have a thread just for that, now in its third part.

@NeddySeagoon ... which is part of the problem, why should such issues get a pass, and criticism confined to a dedicated thread, when the users opting for this are either clueless about what the criticism involves, and their adoption, or are never likely to encounter such criticism when they look to the community for support?

best ... khay
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam,

We have lots of systemd flamefest threads - now all locked except for one and all equally difficult to find.
This thread will go the same way ... locked and sink into oblivion if the flames start here, yet it started with a serious question that deserves a serious response.

The issue itself does not got a pass, The existence of that one thread rather reflects on the continued uninformed 'debate' that seems not to die away from around systemd.
I suppose the topic could be moved to OTW, which appears a bit savage.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

et tu, Neddy?

May I suggest that this thread be attached to the open systemd thread? Being as how, there is no other answer.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945,

I have documented my personal opinion elsewhere and will not repeat it here.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No slight intended. And I do think that it should be included in that thread. As always, however, YMMV.
Thank you for your tireless support of users on this forum.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
No slight intended. And I do think that it should be included in that thread. As always, however, YMMV.
Just to say, I agree with Neddy that this should not be moved; nor does the OP need a load of people ranting on about systemdbust.

I disagree with his assessment of the debate around systemdbust being "uninformed", but that too is off-topic, plus any discussion on it is meta-discussion about meta-discussion (and thus pretty tedious as well as usually fruitless, ime.)

Certainly, the OP is not clueless about systemd, nor about its failings.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With respect to the OP's question:

I run multiple distros. My current desktop is Ubuntu 16.04. It uses systemd. It also displays every flaw described in your original post. I don't know for sure that the fault is systemd but I believe you may be right.

I have Gentoo systems which do not use systemd and which tend to be extremely minimalistic. They work extremely well, but again I don't know if that's because they're extremely minimalistic or because they don't use systemd.

I don't have an answer to easy switching from systemd to openrc. I've never installed systemd on Gentoo so I have no experience.



Now, to the rest of you who want to make a flame fest.

I have on several occasions posted an honest question to this or other forums, and the topic touched on some highly political argument of which I was completely unaware. The resulting "debate" completely overloaded the thread and my question was never answered.

NeddySeagoon is completely correct. Discussion of systemd and its merits or lack of them belongs on a thread which is dedicated to that.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Now, to the rest of you who want to make a flame fest.

1clue ... and that would be a perfect example ... but you, you're a bastion of moderation.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it still possible to choose openrc for the future or is it a dead end?

OpenRC works well and it will probably work well for another couple of years. Technically speaking, it's not a dead end.

But... Most Linux distributions switched to Systemd. If you want to be compatible with other Linux users and with potential employers, you'd better make sure that you know how Systemd works...

Quote:
Now strange things started to happen. Sometimes I need to reboot the system.
Firefox sometimes hangs, systemclock sometimes changes time, ...
Configuring systemd isn't so intuitive, and doesn't start faster. Is this the new wicrosof linux 10?

I cannot confirm that. I switched from OpenRC to Systemd and everything works perfectly fine. It's rock solid - on Gentoo, RHEL and Debian.

But... A switch from OpenRC to Systemd also means that you have to read a lot of documentation: man pages, Lennart Poettering's articles, etc. There are subtle, but crucial differences between the two systems. It also helps to write some unit files and a toy daemon. Systemd is a complex system and it will take weeks or months until you fully understand it.

Now if someone reports hangs, systemclock changes etc.: I'm pretty sure that it's not Systemd's fault. Most probably, there are flaws in the configuration files or people try to do things in the wrong way. If you switch to Systemd, you have to change the way you think and work. If you don't do that, you will be lost....

One example: for ages, we have taught people to start sshd only after network is up and running - and to bind the SSH daemon to a specific IP address, if possible. This doesn't work under Systemd, because there's no state 'network is up and running'. Under Systemd, sshd will be started before the network is up and running. Therefore we cannot bind the SSH daemon to a specific IP address - we must bind it to '*'. Of course, we can discuss the cons and pros of this approach. But one thing is clear. If we use Systemd, we must do things differently...

Quote:
I don't have an answer to easy switching from systemd to openrc. I

It is possible to switch between Systemd and OpenRC. I switched back and forth a couple of times. It's not easy but doable.
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skorefish
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Most Linux distributions switched to Systemd. If you want to be compatible with other Linux users and with potential employers, you'd better make sure that you know how Systemd works...

This really sounds like a threat to ,so no good technical argument. If i want to be compatible i can start using wicrosoft or Macey os. Lot's of users over there. Is it better?

Quote:
Systemd is a complex system and it will take weeks or months until you fully understand it.

since when is this an advantage
Maybe people invest lots of time learning systemd. Then they want there investment to payoff, right, so they cant't afford to go back?
Well at this very moment I' m running gentoo/systemd and yes it works, but the openrc version runs more reliable IMHO.

I still don't understand from a technical point of view why it's not OpenRc that has been adopted by the other Linux distributions. Can someone give me an answer to that?
What can systemd do that OpenRc can't ?


Last edited by skorefish on Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skorefish,

I don't think that this list is maintained any more Distributions using eudev but it might be worth a read.
Using eudev implies not using systemd, it does not follow that OpenRC is being used.

A few parent distros switched, like Fedora and Debian then all the downstream distros followed suit.
On the surface, GNOME was made to hard depend on systemd, so the choice the binary distros had was adopt systemd or drop Gnome.
Do not discuss the (political) merits of that choice in this thread. That discussion goes to The Politics of systemd Part 3

I'm sure that there are other technical reasons too. Keep the discussion here technical please.
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skorefish
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon,

Quote:
Distributions using eudev
interesting 8)

You said it, "was"
Quote:
On the surface, GNOME was made to hard depend on systemd, so the choice the binary distros had was adopt systemd or drop Gnome

But this of course made sense, dropping gnome was not an option.

i see it is no longer the case
Code:
eselect profile list
default/linux/amd64/17.0/desktop/gnome (stable)

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GNOME/GNOME_Without_systemd

nice work !! :D

Yes, please keep it technical here.

Perhaps a more experienced systemd user (than me) can answer my question.
So i installed systemd, saw some of it's flaws (mentioned above).
What is the most brilliant renovative feature of systemd?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: (should)/Can we get rid of systemd ??? Reply with quote

skorefish wrote:
...
Is it still possible to choose openrc for the future or is it a dead end?


I've been using Calculate Linux, which is built on Gentoo and uses OpenRC -- systemd is hard masked and burnt with fire (errant systemd-related files are not installed to the filesystem). It uses standard portage and syncs to the Gentoo portage tree. I've used the KDE version extensively and checked the Cinnamon version. Both run extremely well. My KDE environment seems to be fully functional with working suspend/hibernate, reboot/shutdown, bluetooth, etc. Overall I'd say that Calculate is on a par with Debian for stability(1) (plus has Gentoo nice stuff like profiles, USE flags, overlays) and it has zero entanglement with systemd.

From my vantage point the future is OpenRC.


(1) by which I mean reliability and freedom from unexpected behavior (Just Works with Least Surprise). Of course Calculate Linux does change much more than Debian Stable, it rolls along with Gentoo stable and has much more up-to-date packages than Debian.
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skorefish
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Calculate Linux, which is built on Gentoo and uses OpenRC


looks nice 8)

Quote:
From my vantage point the future is OpenRC.

at the moment i really hope so :wink:

Quote:
What is the most brilliant renovative feature of systemd?
:o well :o radio silence?

about systemd forks: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14884055
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What viewpoint is this topic about?

The end-user? Right now on Gentoo you have a choice... OpenRC, SystemD, Runit etc... Now there are some packages that are ... annoying with regards to depending on an init system (!!!!!!) but there are activities to divorce DE from the init system (GNOME and logind etc...)

The Distro? Well Gentoo is about choice. You and others may not want systemd but other people might. providing such the option is one of the very unique features of Gentoo and one that should be encouraged even if you do not like a particular program or its development.

The wider community... well that is an ongoing discussion across many threads, many site, many media and many companies... It probably will never go away due to too much invested in it by distro and developers.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
What viewpoint is this topic about?

The end-user? Right now on Gentoo you have a choice... OpenRC, SystemD, Runit etc... Now there are some packages that are ... annoying with regards to depending on an init system (!!!!!!) but there are activities to divorce DE from the init system (GNOME and logind etc...)

The Distro? Well Gentoo is about choice. You and others may not want systemd but other people might. providing such the option is one of the very unique features of Gentoo and one that should be encouraged even if you do not like a particular program or its development.

The wider community... well that is an ongoing discussion across many threads, many site, many media and many companies... It probably will never go away due to too much invested in it by distro and developers.


The "viewpoint" is about skorefish, who regrets having installed systemd and wants to back it out. I would call it one step shy of a support request, as I don't think the OP has decided whether to try or not.
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skorefish
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The "viewpoint" is about skorefish, who regrets having installed systemd and wants to back it out. I would call it one step shy of a support request, as I don't think the OP has decided whether to try or not.


I don't regret it. I learned some basics about systemd, giving it a chance. First of all being honest,i don't like the syntax. (This is personal yes)
Reading lots of forums doesn't reveal great arguments in favor of systemd. Add my own little experience with it.

I 'm very happy, to have a choice here.
We need to defend, that choice, against systems trying to create a monopoly.
I 'm also, curious about, why people make a certain choice, to learn from it.

NeddySeagoon said:
Quote:
On the surface, GNOME was made to hard depend on systemd, so the choice the binary distros had was adopt systemd or drop Gnome.
Do not discuss the (political) merits of that choice in this thread.

in gentoo this is no problem


Last edited by skorefish on Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skorefish wrote:


NeddySeagoon said:
Quote:
On the surface, GNOME was made to hard depend on systemd, so the choice the binary distros had was adopt systemd or drop Gnome.
Do not discuss the (political) merits of that choice in this thread.

in gentoo this is no problem
This wasn't always the case.... Gentoo was the 1st distro to dig into this and GNOME devo's pushed back that they don't hard depend on systemd. That was when they looked into it and found the depended on ulogin which was part of systemd... I think this was when people started to see 1st hand the lockin nature of systemd and how it really is monolithic... ideally they should have developed these concepts as standalone instead of libsystemd.so linked.

personally I believe the gnome dev's that they inadvertently became dependant on systemd but it is a shame they didn't do something about it instead of going "meh... so what"
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skorefish
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it is a shame they didn't do something about it instead of going "meh... so what"


This is what i mean by defending our freedom of choice. Now we can be vigilant and report such dependencies.
When certain packages start pulling in systemd. Users like me can report them. Is there a kind of a list for doing so?
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