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b0nafide
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:04 am    Post subject: Tariffs Reply with quote

It appears the Canadian government is not pleased and has retaliated. I'm guessing that NAFTA is no longer on the table, and higher prices on both sides of the border will be the new normal.

tfa wrote:
On May 31, 2018, the United States (U.S.) announced the imposition of tariffs on imports of certain steel and aluminum products from Canada (at the rates of 25% and 10%, respectively).

In response to these measures, Canada intends to impose surtaxes or similar trade-restrictive countermeasures against up to C$16.6 billion in imports of steel, aluminum, and other products from the U.S., representing the value of 2017 Canadian exports affected by the U.S. measures. The Government is also considering whether additional measures may be required.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If fair trade is good enough for coffee, it should be good enough for "allies."
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notageek
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tariff of $16B seems awfully low for trade between North American partners. Trade must be really low between these two partners.

Actually, it isn't. https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/americas/canada
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trump is a Democrat, and Obama was a Republican.
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tariffs are stupid, have always been stupid, and will continue to be stupid.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is the thing... why the hell are the EU and canada getting their knickers in a bunch when for years/decades there has been an asymmetry in the tariffs... Take cars... USA imposes 2.5% on EU cars coming in, EU imposes 10% on US cars coming in. This has been going on for soo long. plenty of time to normalise but nooo... so its pathetic that the EU plays the injured party here.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually there's a good reason to foster and protect domestic metallurgy in particular, in times of widespread war, it's a lot easier to keep churning out weapons of war if you can guarantee stable supplies of metal. Can't do that if the enemy keeps sinking your freight ships full of the stuff you need to wage war. And even your bestest allies will be hesitant send ships off to get torpedoed and sunk to the bottom of the ocean.

I don't know why exactly Trump has decided this in particular needs to be made an issue of, but it's not entirely without merit.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
here is the thing... why the hell are the EU and canada getting their knickers in a bunch when for years/decades there has been an asymmetry in the tariffs... Take cars... USA imposes 2.5% on EU cars coming in, EU imposes 10% on US cars coming in. This has been going on for soo long. plenty of time to normalise but nooo... so its pathetic that the EU plays the injured party here.


Yeah that's an issue, too. And it's not as if tariffs are needed to protect euro car makers, even if there were no tariffs, Europeans would hardly be in a mad rush to go out and buy petrol guzzling cars that have a hard time going around corners.
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b0nafide
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe these tariffs are not so bad after all.

tfa wrote:
In effect, Trump's actions transferred more than half a billion dollars from the U.S. economy to Canada's since March.


However there is still certainly some discussion up here about boycotting businesses that sell Trump products anyway.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You Canadians are so cute when you're mad. :lol:
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b0nafide
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
You Canadians are so cute when you're mad. :lol:


It's pretty weird right now, normally nobody up here gives a shit if you buy maple syrup from Vermont. Suddenly we're wielding the only weapon we have - economics.
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

b0nafide wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
You Canadians are so cute when you're mad. :lol:


It's pretty weird right now, normally nobody up here gives a shit if you buy maple syrup from Vermont. Suddenly we're wielding the only weapon we have - economics.


Well to be fair, we're already beaten-down when it comes to inflated prices.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about moral outrage?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What about moral outrage?


Generally meh. You have the usual suspects raising a fuss, but the for most part as I said... meh.

Personally, I just think tariffs, regardless of who's imposing them, are stupid posturing and one of the best examples of feel-good policy.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, Trump knows what most Canadians think of him -- they generally align with our Democrats and watch our "mainstream media", so their reality is about 47% accurate (when I went to school, a 47 was a big red "F", as in "Fail"). Europeans are the same way. And Trudeau talked shit about him when he was a candidate. So Trump just wants to make Trudeau squirm a bit by dangling a big turd over his head. Also, the idea of "fair trade" implying a balance ignores the relative size of the economies. U.S. trade is a huge percentage of Canada's economy; the reverse is not true. Canada needs US trade much more than the US needs Canadian trade. The terms of trade should reflect that.
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b0nafide
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last I checked, the US was busy irritating all of it's trading partners, not just Canada. Canada seems intent on building a pipeline to the BC coast to expand it's oil markets at least, dropping a cool 4.5 billion in Texas for the ownership of an aging pipeline. That oil is probably going to China. instead of the US.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
Honestly, Trump knows what most Canadians think of him -- they generally align with our Democrats and watch our "mainstream media", so their reality is about 47% accurate (when I went to school, a 47 was a big red "F", as in "Fail"). Europeans are the same way. And Trudeau talked shit about him when he was a candidate. So Trump just wants to make Trudeau squirm a bit by dangling a big turd over his head. Also, the idea of "fair trade" implying a balance ignores the relative size of the economies. U.S. trade is a huge percentage of Canada's economy; the reverse is not true. Canada needs US trade much more than the US needs Canadian trade. The terms of trade should reflect that.


I agree with the first part - I'm thinking most probably just accept the MSM narrative and then say meh.

However, your "fair trade" interpretation is crap and ignores Austrian economic theory. Also, since when do "terms of trade" have to include stupid copyright and internet regulations?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some folks keep forgetting what's the meaning of "sovereign nation". Such a nation can do whatever it wants inside of its borders. If tariffs are needed to balance trade and protect jobs and domestic manufacturing then tariffs will be imposed. Period. Globalists, shut up.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Some folks keep forgetting what's the meaning of "sovereign nation". Such a nation can do whatever it wants inside of its borders. If tariffs are needed to balance trade and protect jobs and domestic manufacturing then tariffs will be imposed. Period. Globalists, shut up.


You are confusing two things. I totally agree with the sovereignty of nations. What I'm saying is that tariff policy is ill-advised and stupid. Nations are free to make ill-advised and stupid decisions.

Also you are confusing globalization, i.e. actors allowed to engaged in free market activities trans-nationally with little restrictions (trade, purchasing, etc.), and globalism, being a one-world sovereign state, most often being forced upon nations. Free trade is a key aspect of an efficient free market.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are confusing an efficient, free global market with national economic health.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
You are confusing an efficient, free global market with national economic health.


How so? Even if I am, tariffs do not fix poor national economic health - as I said it's feel-good policy.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
You are confusing an efficient, free global market with national economic health.


How so? Even if I am, tariffs do not fix poor national economic health - as I said it's feel-good policy.

Tariffs can help or hurt, like any other tool. Reality is neither so simple nor so black and white that it can be said "tariffs are good for our economy" or "tariffs are bad for our economy". It's like saying medical intervention is bad for ones health: yes, incorrect improper medical intervention is bad for you, and, historically, we've probably had more bad medical intervention than good. But, does that justify saying medical intervention is bad for the health and should be ruled out, avoided at all cost, or used only in desperate circumstances? No, it doesn't.

Ever heard of Etruria? No? They didn't believe in restricting trade for national security purposes either. They sold iron to fledgling Rome, a friend and Ally, who used it to take over and wipe their civilization off the map.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
Ever heard of Etruria? No? They didn't believe in restricting trade for national security purposes either. They sold iron to fledgling Rome, a friend and Ally, who used it to take over and wipe their civilization off the map.

I've never heard that before. Can you suggest any reading that makes this case?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
Ever heard of Etruria? No? They didn't believe in restricting trade for national security purposes either. They sold iron to fledgling Rome, a friend and Ally, who used it to take over and wipe their civilization off the map.

I've never heard that before. Can you suggest any reading that makes this case?

Not off hand I cant. Just archaoligical journals that document the coastal Etruscan economy (e.g. 200 million tons of ancient Etruscan iron slag that was dug up and reprocessed by Italy during WWII) coupled with Etruscan history and Roman history. I'm sure you can research it if you're interested.

Rome was originally in the sphere of influence of Etruria, and at the peak of Etruscan power, it was really a vassal city state of the Etruscan Empire. Rome had Etruscan Kings.. Etruria was wealthy, and one of it's principal sources of wealth was Iron finished goods. They had iron in their hills, and they imported iron ore from Elba. They were merchants. They took Rome under their wing technologically and culturally, then the Romans (warlike Latin barbarians at heart), turned around and fucked them, taking everything they had.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely made up.
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