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What's the general character of this hypothetical new Sub-Forum?
Predominantly support (maybe with some chat).
14%
 14%  [ 2 ]
Predominantly chat (maybe with some support).
85%
 85%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 14

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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
khay, this thread was about whether a hardware talk sub would be a good idea. And now it is a general discussion about communication and behavior, based on what OTW is like. I know that is only one part, but I only wanted to hint you people, that you are as off topic as it could be.

Yamakuzure ... right, but it was also stated at the get go how, or why, OTW couldn't serve that purpose. That in turn leads to the question of why, and what purpose OTW serves, which then leads to a more general defence/critique of it's existence and/or the behaviour you might expect to find there (linking it back to the "trollish" behaviour of the first post). That drift occurs based on the flow of the discussion is, I think, a given, and I might feel similarly to you if this were to happen in a support thread, but in forum feedback, or gentoo chat, I think it should be expected ... particularly when justification, or whitewashing, is given for shitty behaviour on the gentoo forums. So, I have to disagree, we have not strayed from the path so far as to make it off-topic.

As for "not the first time", I'll take that under advisement, but do you really think that I shouldn't post stuff in reference to subjects I know about when they arise ... and in gentoo chat, or forum feedback?

best ... khay
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
*sigh* Yeah, boys... Great hardware talk! :roll:

Zucca wrote:
++ But yeah. This is common in these parts of the internet. :mrgreen:

Yamakuzure, Zucca ... would you both please not interject your assessments of the discussion, particularly when it's misleading.
Out of interest - misleading how? We just went a little off-topic. No worries.
khayyam wrote:
The fact that you're not interested
Not a fact. I have followed this topic. Silence of my part doesn't mean I'm not interested. ;)
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1clue
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think everyone who has spent significant time on these forums has become familiar with the differences between OTW and the normal forums. We probably mostly acknowledge value of both in different circumstances. In any case I don't think we need to spend a lot of time hashing out technical attributes of each in this thread.

The question I have is, "How many of us have felt consternation when our attempts to have a serious discussion about hardware were dumped in OTW due to the topic being unrelated to Gentoo?"

The 'mostly support' or 'mostly chat' question seems to be a sort of loaded question for me. The 'chat' aspect seems to imply loose forum rules like OTW, and if that's the case then why not continue with just OTW?

However I can easily see a discussion like that being started specifically to get war stories of real-life attempts to solve a certain problem. That's definitely chat.

So, to summarize my opinion in a way that may bring the discussion more toward what I think it was intended to be:

1. Behavior standard is OTW or support? IMO if it's OTW then there's no point in a new section.
2. Primarily chat or support as a discussion style of thread, with the more strict code of conduct.
3. Primarily chat or support as a response method of thread, with the more strict code of conduct? Meaning, is this actually a support request?

Frankly I can see 2 and 3 being either way. I can see actual support requests from the community (I've posted them and had them dumped in OTW) and I've also posted questions I wanted a serious discussion about, hoping for more moderate behavior from the community.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
*sigh* Yeah, boys... Great hardware talk! :roll:

Zucca wrote:
++ But yeah. This is common in these parts of the internet. :mrgreen:

khayyam wrote:
Yamakuzure, Zucca ... would you both please not interject your assessments of the discussion, particularly when it's misleading.

Zucca wrote:
Out of interest - misleading how? We just went a little off-topic. No worries.

Zucca ... well, "[g]reat hardware talk!" specifically, that IMO is misleading.

khayyam wrote:
The fact that you're not interested

Zucca wrote:
Not a fact. I have followed this topic. Silence of my part doesn't mean I'm not interested. ;)

I mean, in what I, or others, have written, so in certain posts.

best .. khay
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
1. Behavior standard is OTW or support? IMO if it's OTW then there's no point in a new section.
2. Primarily chat or support as a discussion style of thread, with the more strict code of conduct.
3. Primarily chat or support as a response method of thread, with the more strict code of conduct? Meaning, is this actually a support request?

Frankly I can see 2 and 3 being either way. I can see actual support requests from the community (I've posted them and had them dumped in OTW) and I've also posted questions I wanted a serious discussion about, hoping for more moderate behavior from the community.

IMHO, #1 is totally unacceptable. Even OTW shouldn't have OTW rules.
I agree with you on #2, #3.
The definition of Kernel and Hardware is
Index wrote:
Kernel not recognizing your hardware? Problems with power management or PCMCIA? What hardware is compatible with Gentoo? See here. (Only for kernels supported by Gentoo.)

How about this?

Quote:
This forum is for hardware chat and support requests that do not fit under the heading of "Kernel & Hardware"

Maybe that's too fuzzy. I'm thinking on non-fanboy discussion of CPU's as related to Gentoo, or fancy keyboards, disk drives, cooling issues, the relative merits of various power supplies & coolers and such. Maybe I'm being too vague, but not primarily software like Kernel & Hardware, which I think should be renamed Kernel & Drivers.

EDIT: Maybe add right in the description, "Keep it civilized, guys!"
Those interested in sado-masochism can go to OTW or Hell for all I care!
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1clue
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only it's not always related to Linux at all. What if I'm in the market for a SAN or a commercial switch or router? They might be related to Gentoo in that one or more Gentoo boxes might connect to them, but there may be absolutely no FOSS on there.

I'd also like to dispense with "chat" and substitute "discussion." The reason being that IMO "chat" brings back OTW type behavior again, at least in implication. We already have this sort of chat in OTW, because that's where all the threads go when they're not related to Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
The reason being that IMO "chat" brings back OTW type behavior again, at least in implication.
I think "Centoo Chat" is pretty succesful.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
steveL wrote:
I don't like abusive behaviour. It hurts the person, it damages the community, and it twists the practitioner into something even worse over time.

szatox wrote:
1) Facts don't care whether we like them or not. Facts simply are, and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.

szatox ... there are facts, cancer for instance, that we attempt to actively mitigate against. There being medical, scientific, political, personal and interpersonal, ethics that attempt to similarly mitigate the negatives and promote positives isn't a denial of reality, or fact.
True, attempts to mitigate negatives are good, we may succeed or at least learn something new that could come in handy in the future. It's also good to drop those attempts once you realize that the results don't meet your expectations or turn out to be out right harmful.

Quote:

szatox wrote:
2) Unpleasant things may be beneficial or even necessary, depending on the situation. Not all of them are in all circumstances, nothing is black and white. Do you enjoy going to the dentist's? Probably no, but it's better than letting your teeth rot. I don't expect you to like comparing "any sort of violence or abuse" to visiting a dentist's (because "emotions"), but this topic popped up because we define "abuses" in very different ways, so perhaps it would match well enough to become a food for thoughts. If anyone would ever bother to read through our li'l discussion :lol:

No, you're mixing up feeling, judgement, etc, and coming to the conclusion that these operate on the same plain. For this to work you'd have to explain how, say, cancer could be "beneficial or necessary", or how dislike, enjoyment, etc, are ethical considerations. Someone may dislike the dentist, but they probably wouldn't argue that going to the dentist was bad for their health.
[/quote] Going along with your case: what if we got cancer totally wrong? What if it's a symptom of healing process rather than an actual disease? Even though we live in a very safe environment now, we still have to deal with broken bones, scratches on our skin, ocasional knife cuts on our fingers and finally toxins (very common) and more severe accidents (far less common). What if a cancer was a symptom of body using its healing (growing) abilities to e.g. fight poisoning? Obviously, healing is expensive. If you're forced to keep going like that for a long time, you will eventually starve. Notice that we do not treat cancer by blocking mitosis. (Though we do stuff unfortunate individuals with even more toxins and then we can't figure out why they don't get any better).

Quote:

krinn wrote:
That would be same "voluntary" action if you ask the poorest family on earth "hey father, volunteer to get head shot? Your family will never starve again in its whole life, and we will also pay your children all their studies".

szatox wrote:
Oh my, that example is so bad and it's so perfect at the same time. It happens all the time to all of us.[...]

Yes, but the sort of social-darwinist, or objectivist, reasoning you employ doesn't explain the mechanics of why. Any voluntary social arrangements are all about the why, because the idea turns on parties understanding what it is they are giving assent to ... and in what way they are being coerced (ie, so as to get access to the means of subsistence, or provide for ones family).
There is no more hunger in our world, so we've lost sight of what "poverty" actually is. You're poor, when you struggle for survival. And you do what it takes to make it through another day, month, year. That's why. There is no need for a man with a gun and a purse.
Quote:

szatox wrote:
Of course you can opt-out at any time, but by doing so you lose the race and there is no consolation prize.

Thus spake tyranopocrit ...

best ... khay
Why would you risk hurting my feelings? I could have gotten offended, you know? :lol:
Anyway, acquiring resources takes more or less effort, depending on your environment, but it takes it none the less. You need resources for survival, so you put that effort or you fail to survive. There is no need for any authority to enforce this, so I don't see that tyrant of yours here.


Yamakuzure wrote:
this thread was about whether a hardware talk sub would be a good idea. And now it is a general discussion about communication and behavior, based on what OTW is like. I know that is only one part, but I only wanted to hint you people, that you are as off topic as it could be.
Yes, we are as off-topic as we could possibly be, but we're trying to push the limits.
I wouldn't mind a split. However, I don't feel too guilty about offtop here because the important part of this topic is protected from our misbehaviour with an actual poll and whatever wall of text we dump here, it's not gonna obfuscate or dilute the results.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
I don't like abusive behaviour. It hurts the person, it damages the community, and it twists the practitioner into something even worse over time.

szatox wrote:
1) Facts don't care whether we like them or not. Facts simply are, and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.

khayyam wrote:
[...] there are facts, cancer for instance, that we attempt to actively mitigate against. There being medical, scientific, political, personal and interpersonal, ethics that attempt to similarly mitigate the negatives and promote positives isn't a denial of reality, or fact.

szatox wrote:
True, attempts to mitigate negatives are good, we may succeed or at least learn something new that could come in handy in the future. It's also good to drop those attempts once you realize that the results don't meet your expectations or turn out to be out right harmful.

szatox ... what sense am I to make of the words "good", "true", or "handy" in that statement, facts don't care whether you think they are good, true, or useful ... right? This was your challenge to the ethical content of steveL's statement. The fact that these are modified over time, or are subject to error, doesn't alter the type of investment we have in them, even though they are flawed generalisations they are none the less the means by which we navigate the world, and attempt to mitigate "abuse", "damage", etc.

szatox wrote:
2) Unpleasant things may be beneficial or even necessary, depending on the situation.[...]

khayyam wrote:
No, you're mixing up feeling, judgement, etc, and coming to the conclusion that these operate on the same plain. For this to work you'd have to explain how, say, cancer could be "beneficial or necessary", or how dislike, enjoyment, etc, are ethical considerations. Someone may dislike the dentist, but they probably wouldn't argue that going to the dentist was bad for their health.

szatox wrote:
Going along with your case: what if we got cancer totally wrong? What if it's a symptom of healing process rather than an actual disease? [...]

Only if you are prepared to argue that something which disrupts the organisms ability to function, and then kills both organism and itself, doesn't warrant the term disease.

khayyam wrote:
Yes, but the sort of social-darwinist, or objectivist, reasoning you employ doesn't explain the mechanics of why. Any voluntary social arrangements are all about the why, because the idea turns on parties understanding what it is they are giving assent to ... and in what way they are being coerced (ie, so as to get access to the means of subsistence, or provide for ones family).

szatox wrote:
There is no more hunger in our world, so we've lost sight of what "poverty" actually is. You're poor, when you struggle for survival. And you do what it takes to make it through another day, month, year. That's why. There is no need for a man with a gun and a purse.

You're switching the frame of reference, the thread of the argument is on what constitutes coercion, or voluntary agreement. You've attempted to frame krinn's analogy as "happening to all of us", but no, such "choices" don't happen to you if you're one of the small percentage of persons holding the great majority of wealth. As for "no more hunger in our world", wrong ... 13.5% of the developing world suffer malnutrition, and it accounts for 58 percent of total mortality (2006).

szatox wrote:
Of course you can opt-out at any time, but by doing so you lose the race and there is no consolation prize.

khayyam wrote:
Thus spake tyranopocrit ...

szatox wrote:
Why would you risk hurting my feelings? I could have gotten offended, you know? :lol:

That was directed at the argument, and used a very obscure reference ... tyranopocrit isn't a person, it's an idea about the world.

best ... khay
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An another reason why we need a seperate HW talk subforum.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
An another reason why we need a seperate HW talk subforum.

oiiiiii! ... I feel your frustration, seconded.

best ... khay
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steveL
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Only it's not always related to Linux at all. What if I'm in the market for a SAN or a commercial switch or router? They might be related to Gentoo in that one or more Gentoo boxes might connect to them, but there may be absolutely no FOSS on there.

I'd also like to dispense with "chat" and substitute "discussion." The reason being that IMO "chat" brings back OTW type behavior again, at least in implication. We already have this sort of chat in OTW, because that's where all the threads go when they're not related to Gentoo.
Look, the mods have already said they (or at least some of them) agree that it needs to be normal forum rules, not OTW.

So, I'd let go of the issue with the word "chat" and consider it akin to "Gentoo Chat" wrt topicality and rules of decorum both.

Personally I prefer to allow chat, as it means "off-topic" posts like the ones you mention, won't be moved, and everyone is clear about that, upfront.

I haven't voted, because the choice given seems like a false dichotomy.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
khay, this thread was about whether a hardware talk sub would be a good idea. And now it is a general discussion about communication and behavior, based on what OTW is like. I know that is only one part, but I only wanted to hint you people, that you are as off topic as it could be.
So ask for a thread-split, not for the discursers to STFU.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Several of the Moderators have also seen the need for a kinder, gentler place to put things that technically don't fit anywhere but OTW. Stay tuned for an announcement, hopefully soon. :wink:

- John
Any news? :?
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