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What's the general character of this hypothetical new Sub-Forum?
Predominantly support (maybe with some chat).
20%
 20%  [ 3 ]
Predominantly chat (maybe with some support).
80%
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

misdirection wrote:
n. An act of misleading, of convincing someone to concentrate in an incorrect direction.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
szatox wrote:
Throwing shit at each other is just a part of men being men.

Bullies, you mean. And it's called "hazing".
It's bullying only when the guy you pick on doesn't smile and throw it back in your face.
And "hazing", though often unpleasant, is very effective at forging communities. In fact, the more unpleasant (and even painful) it is, the better job it does, because it puts a price tag on whatever follows. Humans are a funny specie, the more we sacrifice for something, the more we appreciate it. Apparently, Stockholm syndrome goes a long way.
The world is not black and white. The things you enjoy don't have to be good, the things you hate are not necessarily evil.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Apparently, Stockholm syndrome goes a long way.

Evidently.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
camaraderie wrote:
from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Edition

n. Goodwill and lighthearted rapport between or among friends; comradeship.

from Wiktionary, Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License

n. Close friendship in a group of friends or teammates.
n. A spirit of familiarity and closeness

heyhey, so where does it comes from then, we have it too in french
camarade: friend or colleague
camaraderie: friendship
For us, the subtle is that a friend is someone you know, while camarade is someone you aren't close with, more someone you share a good relation with just because you are sharing the same goal : because of this, camarade is commonly use in France by communists and syndicalists.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn,

Together with a lot of French words, camaraderie was dumped into the English language shortly after the English came second at the battle of Hastings in 1066.
The Normans didn't learn English before they arrived and had no need to later. :)

That was well before the Mayflower took the English language to 'the colonies'.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and you use it like us, as "same goal but we're not friends" or like that America Heritage Dictionary suggest, another way to say friend?
we French love to use lot of words to define a tiny subtle:
Hey NeddySeagoon, my friend : saying NeddySeagoon and I are close together
Hey NeddySeaggon, my camarade : saying we share something (in this case "gentoo goal")
Hey NeddySeagoon, my colleague: use for workers, so our share is because we work for the same company ; you also use it for someone you don't know sharing your work ability (ie: two scientists, doctors...). funny because when use as co-worker, it's the lowest level of sympathy (you don't gives a fuck about the guy, you just work with him), while when using it to express a common "level", it's a proof of respect (two doctors not working with each other, still both deserve respect for their title and seen each other at same level). The subtle is coming from the interlocutors so.

But unlike the wiktionary and dictionary cite by pjp, i think pjp has use it like French would do, camarade is the right word to use (we're sharing gentoo forum).

ps: you can move my "krinn is learning english" out of the discussion :)
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Throwing shit at each other is just a part of men being men.
Tony0945 wrote:
Bullies, you mean. And it's called "hazing".
Bingo.

That humans have been conditioned for millenia to think that "taking shit" is what a man does, is neither here nor there.

In fact, most cultures apart from the white Western "world", do not venerate a man who cannot articulate, nor express how he's feeling (apart from acting-out like a shithead.)

In most cultures I've encountered, if a man is unhappy about something, you know about it.
He's already explained it, and now he's doing something about it (so get out of the way, if you are unable or unwilling to help.)

The thought of him having to sit on it, because he's "unable to express his emotions", is simply laughable.

That's not a man; that's a little boy, at best, pretending to be a man.

Still, what do you expect after nearly two millenia of slavery^W serfdom.
Self-repression used to have a survival value; now it's just an unhealthy legacy.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
i think pjp has use it like French would do, camarade is the right word to use (we're sharing gentoo forum).
And khayyam's point (as I read it), with which I concur, is that the usage is misleading.

Bullying is no more "camaraderie" (however deep your Stockholm's be) than de-facto cartels putting up barriers to entry is "friendly rivalry" of the sort we got at school between teams, where you take pleasure in each other's excellence (the myth of "competition" we are sold in lieu of real cooperation as human-beings.)

It's just more bulshytt afaic; words designed to sound like they've said something, when nothing is in fact being said, apart from "let me put this wool over your eyes.. doesn't that feel more comfortable?"

Repeating "received wisdom" often ends up like that.

"We're your friends, really, so take your place in the shitting-upon order.. Now you belong. Spread the word."

I'll pass, thanks.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveL, I've lost track. You seem to disagree with something, but I don't know what is that thing and what is your point.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bullied into retraction.
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Last edited by pjp on Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Bullying is no more "camaraderie" (however deep your Stockholm's be)
pjp wrote:
I agree 100%. And camaraderie isn't bullying (I'll leave out unnecessarily inflammatory comments). A good example might be a fraternity (sorority?). A person chooses to participate, goes through "bonding rituals" / hazing. If done properly, it is experience members will typically value. Unfortunately, it can also go to extremes and turn into something resulting in serious harm. I'm not sure if it can be called bullying, since it is voluntary.
Yes it definitely can, and it still is precisely that.

Tricking people into being abused, is still abuse.
It's just deception at the same time, but that's always a feature of abuse, in any case.

It's always about blaming the victim, in one way or another; any lie will do, so long as the abuser can evade responsibility.

That your victim is naive, perhaps idealistic, and looking to belong, only deepens the shame, which is not theirs by the way.

It certainly does not mean what is implied, that there was informed consent, from an adult who knew what they were getting into.

But then, this is all rather obvious, don't you think?
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steveL
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
SteveL, I've lost track. You seem to disagree with something, but I don't know what is that thing and what is your point.
IDK quite what to say to that. I think I've been pretty straightforward, and simple in my language.

I don't like abusive behaviour. It hurts the person, it damages the community, and it twists the practitioner into something even worse over time.
And I really hate any sort of argumentation in favour of it, too.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
[...] But it not everyone wants to be part of that experience (or allow others to participate).

pjp ... the implication being that questioning OTW's reason for existence, and the purpose it serves, why separate standards of acceptability exist for it, etc, etc, doesn't need justified, because such questions can be reduced to the unwillingness of some to let others be. In short, the argument functions to turn that justification around, and so make those doing the criticising have to justify infringing others freedom to engage in such discussion. This argument expects to fly under the radar because the condition it sets is impossible to justify, but more importantly, what it attempts to hide is the fact that this forum, and community, exists for one purpose, and that is gentoo, it doesn't exist to provide the denizens of OTW someplace to exercise such freedoms.

pjp wrote:
[...]I'm not sure if it can be called bullying, since it is voluntary.

In which case you're redefining stockholm syndrome to be something other than stockholm syndrome. While I don't agree with the idea that such things are unidirectional, abuse (be it bullying, hazing, shit hurling, or whatever) involves the exercising of social, or physical, power, and where voluntarism is concerned there is the implicit idea that no coercion is involved, however subtle, or socially accepted, it is. You needn't look far (ie, the Milgram experiment, the church of scientology, Boetie's discours sur la servitude volontaire, etc, etc) to see how such coercion functions, and what role the group, rites of passage, etc, play in maintaining that coercion.

EDIT: fixed quote attribution.

best ... khay


Last edited by khayyam on Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
I don't like abusive behaviour. It hurts the person, it damages the community, and it twists the practitioner into something even worse over time.
And I really hate any sort of argumentation in favour of it, too.
Hear, hear!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I'm not sure if it can be called bullying, since it is voluntary.

It's not voluntary, most of the times it's a social pressure.
Your voluntary is no less than bullying people that perceived a real need to enter the group (social action), even they are not really voluntary to be treat like shit to enter it.

That would be same "voluntary" action if you ask the poorest family on earth "hey father, volunteer to get head shot? Your family will never starve again in its whole life, and we will also pay your children all their studies". And once the father is raising hand, would you really say "he volunteer!" ?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@khayyam: fix your quote please ;)
krinn wrote:
That would be same "voluntary" action if you ask the poorest family on earth "hey father, volunteer to get head shot? Your
family will never starve again in its whole life, and we will also pay your children all their studies". And once the father is raising hand, would you really say "he volunteer!" ?
From what I've seen in OTW, most denizens thereof would say exactly that.

After all, that's the logic of "capitalism" (which is just a neologism for "accepting the shitstem.")

"You had a choice; you could have starved, and let your children die."
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
@khayyam: fix your quote please ;)

steveL ... sorry, fixed.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't like abusive behaviour. It hurts the person, it damages the community, and it twists the practitioner into something even worse over time.

Oh, well, I didn't say I _like_ it. Still, I am aware of 2 quite important things:
1) Facts don't care whether we like them or not. Facts simply are, and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.
2) Unpleasant things may be beneficial or even necessary, depending on the situation. Not all of them are in all circumstances, nothing is black and white. Do you enjoy going to the dentist's? Probably no, but it's better than letting your teeth rot.
I don't expect you to like comparing "any sort of violence or abuse" to visiting a dentist's (because "emotions"), but this topic popped up because we define "abuses" in very different ways, so perhaps it would match well enough to become a food for thoughts. If anyone would ever bother to read through our li'l discussion :lol:

Quote:
That would be same "voluntary" action if you ask the poorest family on earth "hey father, volunteer to get head shot? Your
family will never starve again in its whole life, and we will also pay your children all their studies".
Oh my, that example is so bad and it's so perfect at the same time. It happens all the time to all of us. That's essentially the definition of "work" in less fucked up countries, "taxes/welfare" in those more fucked up, and it's called "survival" in the wilderness.You either trade your time to feed your family (roughly one month of your life to feed your family for a month, or until you retire to let all your kids grow up and mature and then you die), or you take chances (e.g. hunting in the wilds, or painting bridges in a modern city jungle) to get more resources from less time, hopefully allowing you to save some of your time for other things if you succeed and killing you without any profit at all if you fail. And you can be absolutely certain, that whatever sacrifice you make, it will not benefit your family "for life", it's going to last way, way, shorter time.
Of course you can opt-out at any time, but by doing so you lose the race and there is no consolation prize.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
I don't like abusive behaviour. It hurts the person, it damages the community, and it twists the practitioner into something even worse over time.

szatox wrote:
1) Facts don't care whether we like them or not. Facts simply are, and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.

szatox ... there are facts, cancer for instance, that we attempt to actively mitigate against. There being medical, scientific, political, personal and interpersonal, ethics that attempt to similarly mitigate the negatives and promote positives isn't a denial of reality, or fact.

szatox wrote:
2) Unpleasant things may be beneficial or even necessary, depending on the situation. Not all of them are in all circumstances, nothing is black and white. Do you enjoy going to the dentist's? Probably no, but it's better than letting your teeth rot. I don't expect you to like comparing "any sort of violence or abuse" to visiting a dentist's (because "emotions"), but this topic popped up because we define "abuses" in very different ways, so perhaps it would match well enough to become a food for thoughts. If anyone would ever bother to read through our li'l discussion :lol:

No, you're mixing up feeling, judgement, etc, and coming to the conclusion that these operate on the same plain. For this to work you'd have to explain how, say, cancer could be "beneficial or necessary", or how dislike, enjoyment, etc, are ethical considerations. Someone may dislike the dentist, but they probably wouldn't argue that going to the dentist was bad for their health.

krinn wrote:
That would be same "voluntary" action if you ask the poorest family on earth "hey father, volunteer to get head shot? Your family will never starve again in its whole life, and we will also pay your children all their studies".

szatox wrote:
Oh my, that example is so bad and it's so perfect at the same time. It happens all the time to all of us.[...]

Yes, but the sort of social-darwinist, or objectivist, reasoning you employ doesn't explain the mechanics of why. Any voluntary social arrangements are all about the why, because the idea turns on parties understanding what it is they are giving assent to ... and in what way they are being coerced (ie, so as to get access to the means of subsistence, or provide for ones family).

szatox wrote:
Of course you can opt-out at any time, but by doing so you lose the race and there is no consolation prize.

Thus spake tyranopocrit ...

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*sigh* Yeah, boys... Great hardware talk! :roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
*sigh* Yeah, boys... Great hardware talk! :roll:
++

But yeah. This is common in these parts of the internet. :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
That's essentially the definition of "work" in less fucked up countries, "taxes/welfare" in those more fucked up, and it's called "survival" in the wilderness.You either trade your time to feed your family (roughly one month of your life to feed your family for a month, or until you retire to let all your kids grow up and mature and then you die), or you take chances (e.g. hunting in the wilds, or painting bridges in a modern city jungle) to get more resources from less time, hopefully allowing you to save some of your time for other things if you succeed and killing you without any profit at all if you fail. And you can be absolutely certain, that whatever sacrifice you make, it will not benefit your family "for life", it's going to last way, way, shorter time.
Of course you can opt-out at any time, but by doing so you lose the race and there is no consolation prize.
What Khay said to all of it.

I'd just point out that your "facts" are predicated on the white^W Western myth that "cavemen" used to wander around in the wilderness on their own, and occasionally bump into a Racquel Welch, who also just happened to be wandering around the wilderness, on her own.

This is complete nonsense; human beings are social animals, evolved from little shrews that lived underground and so managed to survive the K2 event that killed all the dinosaurs.

We have never lived in isolation, until it has been imposed on us these last few thousand years (since the last comet strike about 12,000 years ago.)

Yet your entire ethos is based on that lie.
That and the entire tissue of fabrication that is Western culture, which is simply a culture of theft, genocide and slavery. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you guys have been slaves for nearly two millenia, if not more. You used to call it "serfdom" and now "modern" commentators are quite open about calling that slavery.

Just think for a moment on what kind of culture slaves are allowed; self-repressed, and "you'll get your reward in the next life, if you just put up with shit in this one."

Keep believing.. that'll change the facts.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
*sigh* Yeah, boys... Great hardware talk!
Well this isn't about hardware, but about what sort of forums we have, including a hardware one.

But yeah, people wander off topic. Nonetheless, there was no hardware question in-play.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
*sigh* Yeah, boys... Great hardware talk! :roll:

Zucca wrote:
++ But yeah. This is common in these parts of the internet. :mrgreen:

Yamakuzure, Zucca ... would you both please not interject your assessments of the discussion, particularly when it's misleading. The fact that you're not interested in what's being discussed is fine, just don't behave as though it's getting forced on you, or that it's some kind of major inconvenience to skip over ... we all have to suffer such things. The last time you both did this I had to argue for the thread not being split ... twice ... and then it being subsequently moved to OTW, and back, I still don't understand why that thread got so much attention moderation wise, but it's fair to say your comments played some part. Keep in mind I don't do this, I consider it bad form, if there is something I don't want to read, or engage with, I unsubscribe, or skip, or attempt to move the discussion in another direction.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khay, this thread was about whether a hardware talk sub would be a good idea. And now it is a general discussion about communication and behavior, based on what OTW is like. I know that is only one part, but I only wanted to hint you people, that you are as off topic as it could be.

If I look under this editing box, not one post in the overview is on-topic.

That is as much derailment as it can be.

And this is not the first time.

steveL wrote:
1clue wrote:
K&H would be what I would be inclined to use, but maybe it would be better if there were a non-support subforum which would be a "normal rules" discussion area, not an "OTW rules" discussion.
Sure
That happens to be the last on-topic post. Go and see for yourself how far you have to go back.
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