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What's the deal?
Just a bunch of hot air; ain't nuthin' gonna happen.
18%
 18%  [ 4 ]
Putin's bluffing, but Trump's not.
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Trump's bluffing, but Putin's not.
18%
 18%  [ 4 ]
Nobody's bluffing.
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Select this option if you would like the world to just calm down for a spell.
50%
 50%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 22

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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:07 pm    Post subject: Let's Talk Syria Reply with quote

So if Israel is to be believed, then Iran is attempting to implant themselves inside Syria, and this is why the IDF sent that F-15E to bomb the Syrian target it hit with the Iranian advisers in it. Meanwhile, Russia swears they're going to shoot down any missile coming into Syrian space.

Let's recap:

1. Iran is pissed that Israel killed its guys inside Syria.
2. The U.S. is pissed that Al Asad gassed its own people.
3. Russia is pissed that the U.S. might intervene.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't been following. Last I heard, I thought we were getting out of there? Maybe that was some other pit into which we shouldn't be throwing away our lives and resources. Lacking a better option, I voted "nobody is bluffing."
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, we turned around and pulled out of Syria.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syria is a sovereign nation. Asad might be a dick, I don't know, but his dickiness is not affecting me or mine. Asad's enemies are our enemies. Last I checked, Asad has not asked for US help, but has invited the Russians into his country. Asad has SUPPOSEDLY used chemical munitions against rebel forces, but I take ANYTHING the news reports with a very high amount of skepticism. It seems more likely that the neocons on both sides of the Atlantic are setting this up as an excuse. We'd be better off getting the hell out of there, giving Asad support to finish off ISIS.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
Syria is a sovereign nation. Asad might be a dick, I don't know, but his dickiness is not affecting me or mine. Asad's enemies are our enemies. Last I checked, Asad has not asked for US help, but has invited the Russians into his country. Asad has SUPPOSEDLY used chemical munitions against rebel forces, but I take ANYTHING the news reports with a very high amount of skepticism. It seems more likely that the neocons on both sides of the Atlantic are setting this up as an excuse. We'd be better off getting the hell out of there, giving Asad support to finish off ISIS.

Yeah - the whole situation seems like a complete clusterfuck. I don't even remember, why was Assad suddenly a bad guy? Syria seemed like a relatively stable country until … it wasn't. I barely know who is involved at all in that war that's taking place in syria, let alone what their respective motivations are.
The whole c-weapon usage is an entirely different can of worms.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=3110
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flysideways wrote:
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=3110
That explains Putin's interest and why Europe would want to keep him out. And if Europe needed and requested some minor assistance, I might not object to a fair arrangement. But that doesn't address the initial collapse / conflict which was or seemed to result in civil war like melee
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Muslim countries are unstable by their nature. Their boarders where drawn by outsiders driven by their own agendas and very little knowledge of the people so their populations are all mixed up. To make it worse each country contains two or three major groups who are violently opposed to each other.

They also have a very anti-intellectual history so modern countries are basically iron age peoples who where given industrial age (then computer age) technology. Their societies simply have not kept up.

Realistically, both the middle east and Africa need to redraw their borders then work on changing some particularly out dated social values. Neither of which is likely to happen peacefully or willingly. Probably the best thing to do is stand back and let them work it out and then offer humanitarian aid to clean up the mess.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder just how well these Syrian Rebels are on our side.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
The Muslim countries are unstable by their nature. Their boarders where drawn by outsiders driven by their own agendas and very little knowledge of the people so their populations are all mixed up. To make it worse each country contains two or three major groups who are violently opposed to each other.

They also have a very anti-intellectual history so modern countries are basically iron age peoples who where given industrial age (then computer age) technology. Their societies simply have not kept up.

Realistically, both the middle east and Africa need to redraw their borders then work on changing some particularly out dated social values. Neither of which is likely to happen peacefully or willingly. Probably the best thing to do is stand back and let them work it out and then offer humanitarian aid to clean up the mess.

They're unstable by American nature. Iran had all the appearance of a sunny holiday resort in the 50s and 60s before the CIA came along and fucked it up, stripped it of its democracy, installed a deranged lunatic, and flooded the country with guns. Rinse and repeat for a bunch of others along the southern border of Russia. And the brainwashed-and-crazy types aren't staying within their homeland, we all pay for this.

It's no wonder that the offspring of that generation all want nukes to keep the yanks from coming back for another pound of flesh.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
I don't even remember, why was Assad suddenly a bad guy? Syria seemed like a relatively stable country until … it wasn't.

Obama happened. Assad, Mubarak and Gaddafi were tyrannical assholes, but stable and quite reasonable assholes. Obama ignited so called "Arab spring" and pushed egyptians to remove Mubarak. Other countries followed.
Obama of course didn't bother to think for a moment who might replace them.
Look at Egypt, Syria and Libya now.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
before the CIA came along and fucked it up, stripped it of its democracy, installed a deranged lunatic

Any proof of that? The Shah was progressive secular pro-western ruler. Why would the CIA replace him with religious homicidal maniac?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without a large preexisting instability a coup would never have been possible.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koala Kid wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
before the CIA came along and fucked it up, stripped it of its democracy, installed a deranged lunatic

Any proof of that? The Shah was progressive secular pro-western ruler. Why would the CIA replace him with religious homicidal maniac?

Well apparently it was quite complcated, the CIA ordered US oil companies to share profits with the local governments in countries like Sadi Arabia, so the Iranians become jelous and demanded that the UK, that had rights on all Iranian oil fields did the same, they wanted to use the money to improve the living condition in the country, the UK refused, the Iranian seized the oil field and finally the CIA was able to organize a coup .... Easy. ....

Koala Kid wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
I don't even remember, why was Assad suddenly a bad guy? Syria seemed like a relatively stable country until … it wasn't.

Obama happened. Assad, Mubarak and Gaddafi were tyrannical assholes, but stable and quite reasonable assholes. Obama ignited so called "Arab spring" and pushed egyptians to remove Mubarak. Other countries followed.
Obama of course didn't bother to think for a moment who might replace them.
Look at Egypt, Syria and Libya now.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%9308_world_food_price_crisis
Probably the food crisis situation seen in 2007 and 2008 caused the arab spring, with a sharp increase in basic food prices caused by a combination of factors. All those countries have one thing in common, they cannot produce enough food ... we didn't even notice it, or were blaming the euro or Oblabla but the poor in the arab countries was dramatic.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Probably the food crisis situation seen in 2007 and 2008 caused the arab spring, with a sharp increase in basic food prices caused by a combination of factors. All those countries have one thing in common, they cannot produce enough food ... we didn't even notice it, or were blaming the euro or Oblabla but the poor in the arab countries was dramatic.

You're mixing "what" with "why". I didn't go into why it happened.
And if we're going for "why", dig deeper. WHY "they cannot produce enough food" where Israel, that lies in the same area, does it quite well?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly not because Oblabla made them unable to produce enough food ..... of course increased food prices were just the spark that ignited the revolts.
Agriculture in Israel is modern, 'Israel is a world leader in agricultural research and development, which has led to dramatic increases in the quantity and quality of the country's crops.' in most of the arab world subsistence agriculture is still diffused like in most less developed countries.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koala Kid wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
I don't even remember, why was Assad suddenly a bad guy? Syria seemed like a relatively stable country until … it wasn't.

Obama happened. (...) Obama ignited so called "Arab spring" (...)
*hahaha* ... So Obama told Mohamed Bouazizi to set himself on fire after he was banned from selling fruit to earn a living? Woah! That man had quite the power! *hahaha*
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Certainly not because Oblabla made them unable to produce enough food ..... of course increased food prices were just the spark that ignited the revolts.
Agriculture in Israel is modern, 'Israel is a world leader in agricultural research and development, which has led to dramatic increases in the quantity and quality of the country's crops.' in most of the arab world subsistence agriculture is still diffused like in most less developed countries.

We're finally getting somewhere here... Why can't they buy modern israeli technology or develop something of their own? Maybe (just maybe) it's because they're bunch of lazy feudal primitive fucks, who need a strong dictator to rule them by iron fist?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Koala Kid wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
I don't even remember, why was Assad suddenly a bad guy? Syria seemed like a relatively stable country until … it wasn't.

Obama happened. (...) Obama ignited so called "Arab spring" (...)
*hahaha* ... So Obama told Mohamed Bouazizi to set himself on fire after he was banned from selling fruit to earn a living? Woah! That man had quite the power! *hahaha*

I guess you could simplify it to that degree, but as a Middle East local resident, I remember clearly Obama aggressively supporting Muslim brotherhood in their attempt to take down Mubarak (and the same with Gaddafi, even after he voluntarily gave up all Libya's WMD's and tried to restore ties with the West ) and ending up with bringing the region into chaos. Assad couldn't allow it and this is why he's fighting until last syrian citizen.
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Last edited by Koala Kid on Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Obama happened. Assad, Mubarak and Gaddafi were tyrannical assholes,


What was wrong with Gaddafi? I only heard positive things about him. Honest to god.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does Assad have to win from gassing is own people on the verge of defeating them?
The only outcome would be to bring international condemnation.

So who has most to gain from escalation the confrontation?
UK to drive home the domestic attack?
America's deep state (esp since trump wanted out)
Israel due to Iran
Saudi due to influence in the area (considering they influenced the original conflict)
Assad to win?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if Mossad knew that building was on the target list and stuffed it with Sarin? It wouldn't be the first time the Israel's left hand doesn't know what it's right hand is doing. Remember the U.S.S. Liberty...
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koala Kid wrote:
I remember clearly Obama aggressively supporting Muslim brotherhood in their attempt to take down Mubarak (and the same with Gaddafi, even after he voluntarily gave up all Libya's WMD's and tried to restore ties with the West ) and ending up with bringing the region into chaos. Assad couldn't allow it and this is why he's fighting until last syrian citizen.


++
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assad is something of a distraction for the slaughtering of the Kurdish majority in Afrin by the Turkish backed Free Syrian Army. Yes, the Kurds are allies of the US. And the rationale for the US not defending Afrin was because it's not 'strategic'.

In other words, as much as Assad and his enemies fight, it's in both sides class interests to crush the Kurdish movement in Syria as it help maintain the narrow interests of the ruling class. Even by using the radical jihadi Turkish backed FSA.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
What was wrong with Gaddafi? I only heard positive things about him. Honest to god.
His government blew up Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie. Scotland. I believe that speaks for itself.
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