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Muso
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:06 pm    Post subject: Nikita : On Bloat Reply with quote

Software disenchantment

Quote:
Windows 95 was 30Mb. Today we have web pages heavier than that! Windows 10 is 4Gb, which is 133 times as big. But is it 133 times as superior? I mean, functionally they are basically the same. Yes, we have Cortana, but I doubt it takes 3970 Mb. But whatever Windows 10 is, is Android really 150% of that?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man I don't really have much to add to that. I think this sentiment might be fueling Rust's adoption. If C takes forever to debug because it's dangerous, then rewrite the language to make it safe. Then you will have both speed and safety.

Regarding the Web, I've concluded that the root of the problem is that there is such high demand for Web development, and there are many Web "developers" out there, but they are not engineers. I once had someone tell me in 2008 that CSS2 was a proper layout system.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the picture at the bottom just did it for me.
Yes Nikita, you are alone. Everybody wants slower software that takes more diskspace without providing any additional functionality.
What we really need is more jackasses writing calls to action so the engineers rise up against the bloat and walk the path to enlightenment.
The essence of the problem is that hardware preformance is growing exponentially and the software side can only try to keep up.
None of the software building tools today is used in the environment it was designed for. C was released in 1972, C++ in 1985. The Intel 80486 in 1989. Anyone using a 486?
You can totally write a new kernel today. The problem is supporting every new bit of hardware that comes out. And the amount of available programmers (not even skilled programmers) is finite.

Oh and, if you want to have a laugh, open his github. Of his 6 pinned projects 4 are written in Clojure. In case you don't know, Clojure is a Lisp-dialect (Lisp being released in 1958) with the added benefit of running on the Java-VM.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Microsoft and Google will make their OS's less bloated when their customers declare that they don't care about backwards compatibility anymore and will conform to whatever minimalist libraries they put out.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most MS bloat has nothing to do with backwards compatibility.

It's all the "ET phone home" crap along with a heaping helping of "gee gotta make it look cool, w/animations and shit"
It's also what beats the hell out of the system responsiveness.

With Android, it takes a lot of code to monitor your each and every keystroke/finger movements (so it can phone home) gotta keep the advertisers happy.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
Well, the picture at the bottom just did it for me.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

The Furry one?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why don't you like lisp?
Code:
(format t "Hello, World!")
or
(+ 3 6 11)

It's so f'ing intuitive :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Most MS bloat has nothing to do with backwards compatibility.


How many .NET runtimes do you have installed on your machine?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Why don't you like lisp?
Code:
(format t "Hello, World!")
or
(+ 3 6 11)

It's so f'ing intuitive :lol:

It's just
Code:
(FUNCTION-NAME[ ARG1[ ARG2 [...]]])
all over the place. And yes, "+" is the name of a function.
The only thing confusing about that is that "+" is actually "Σ", but I guess you cant type that as easily.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Why don't you like lisp?
Code:
(format t "Hello, World!")
or
(+ 3 6 11)

It's so f'ing intuitive :lol:


Prefix notation, every compiler turns your infix to prefix (or postfix), so nothing wrong with you writing in prefix. In-fact, every expression should be written in prefix, because it's natural order.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
Well, the picture at the bottom just did it for me.
Yes Nikita, you are alone. Everybody wants slower software that takes more diskspace without providing any additional functionality.
What we really need is more jackasses writing calls to action so the engineers rise up against the bloat and walk the path to enlightenment.

:?

Dr.Willy wrote:
The essence of the problem is that hardware preformance is growing exponentially and the software side can only try to keep up.

How could a given unit of software struggle to keep up with faster hardware? This makes no sense.

Dr.Willy wrote:
None of the software building tools today is used in the environment it was designed for. C was released in 1972, C++ in 1985. The Intel 80486 in 1989. Anyone using a 486?

What the hell are you rambling on about? Properly written C and C++ compile to whatever you want; it was never supposed to be tied to the processor in the first place. That was the whole point.

Dr.Willy wrote:
Oh and, if you want to have a laugh, open his github. Of his 6 pinned projects 4 are written in Clojure. In case you don't know, Clojure is a Lisp-dialect (Lisp being released in 1958) with the added benefit of running on the Java-VM.

Okay, so it's old...what's your point?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
The essence of the problem is that hardware preformance is growing exponentially and the software side can only try to keep up.

How could a given unit of software struggle to keep up with faster hardware? This makes no sense.

If you have more powerful hardware you can (and will) do more complex stuff with it.
IOW the hardware allows to tackle bigger problems, so it's done despite the software side being just good-enough.

wswartzendruber wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
None of the software building tools today is used in the environment it was designed for. C was released in 1972, C++ in 1985. The Intel 80486 in 1989. Anyone using a 486?

What the hell are you rambling on about? Properly written C and C++ compile to whatever you want; it was never supposed to be tied to the processor in the first place. That was the whole point.

The point is the comparison between the two respective development paces.

wswartzendruber wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
Oh and, if you want to have a laugh, open his github. Of his 6 pinned projects 4 are written in Clojure. In case you don't know, Clojure is a Lisp-dialect (Lisp being released in 1958) with the added benefit of running on the Java-VM.

Okay, so it's old...what's your point?

Ok, question: Which implementation do you think is less bloated? The one written in '58 or the one running on the JVM?


Last edited by Dr.Willy on Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's basically saying one man's bloat is another man's detumescence.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
Ok, question: Which implementation do you think is less bloated? The one written in '58 or the one running on the JVM?

The one written in Rust. 8)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
Ok, question: Which implementation do you think is less bloated? The one written in '58 or the one running on the JVM?

The one written in Rust. 8)

Well I'll be damned, there is one.

But now that you brought up rust, there was another point I disagree with the article: Compile times.
Sure, noone aims for longer compile times, but if that's the price you pay for getting both performance AND correctness, then so be it.
And until the code-auditing industry is in deep crisis because the last buffer overread was discovered 2 years ago, compile times are simply not a priority.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Regarding the Web, I've concluded that the root of the problem is that there is such high demand for Web development, and there are many Web "developers" out there, but they are not engineers. I once had someone tell me in 2008 that CSS2 was a proper layout system.


Most web programmers couldn't figure their way out of a paper bag, even if they had sample code and a flow chart.
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