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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a lot of noise on both -dev and -project following the council vote.
Now its council election time.

https://projects.gentoo.org/council/meeting-logs/20171210.txt:

[19:44:29] <dilfridge> vote: 'do we want a public mailing list with posting restricted to devs (+ voiced contributors)'
[19:44:42] -*- slyfox no
[19:44:46] -*- K_F yes
[19:44:51] -*- dilfridge yes
[19:44:53] -*- mgorny yes
[19:44:56] -*- mrueg yes
[19:45:14] -*- ulm yes (under the condition that it will be -dev)
[19:45:23] -*- K_F adds same condition as ulm
[19:45:33] <dilfridge> ok
[19:45:38] -*- WilliamH  not a new mailing list
[19:45:46] <ulm> K_F: it's a majority without that anyway
[19:45:49] <dilfridge> motion passed in any case
[19:45:51] -*- WilliamH no


As GLEP 39 used to say, "Vote the bums out".
Its time for the devs opposed to this decision to make their votes count.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
The ideal end result here is the Gentoo community slowly adopting an Exherbo-style distro model where everyone maintains a few ebuilds in their repo, and a few others run services that bring them all together.
Yup. I suppose that's exactly what would happen if shit actually hit the fan.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Its time for the devs opposed to this decision to make their votes count.

This would be a great announce for dev ml, but... we cannot post there :)

But i'm also afraid that if only devs could vote for a candidate, how fair the vote will be if devs that would vote against him are all ban?
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn,

Its off topic for the -dev ml. The poster could get banned from the list.
It would be OK on -project though.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Its off topic for the -dev ml. The poster could get banned from the list.
That says it all for me.

What a bunch of fscktards.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
Its off topic for the -dev ml. The poster could get banned from the list.
That says it all for me.

What a bunch of fscktards.
Really? You're surprised that someone wants to keep their place neat and tidy?
Ask admins here how many bans they hand out every day :lol: and mind that they are very, very lenient.
Funny enough, even really harsh places with very strict rules (and gangs of mods enforcing them with full brutality) find their communities.

Btw, Neddy even already gave you a solution to your problem:
Quote:
It would be OK on -project though.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Btw, Neddy even already gave you a solution to your problem:
Quote:
It would be OK on -project though.

My little finger is speaking (yep i'm ash)
krinn's little finger wrote:
What let you think you'll get your head cut speaking in the tyran's castle but not if you do on the place in front? You'll probably be report (hey that's democracy!) by the tyran ; than face the tribunal that is rule by... oh lol the tyran. Case closed.


This wake up my middle finger, but it have nothing to say...
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szatox
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krinn, I completely don't get your point here.
Quote:
What let you think you'll get your head cut speaking in the tyran's castle but not if you do on the place in front?
Well... Because it's not speaking itself but the fact that your tyrant doesn't like being interrupted?
BTW, that trailer is disgusting. I've been expecting jump scares since the very first glance, and even with those low expectations I'm still disappointed.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
szatox wrote:
Btw, Neddy even already gave you a solution to your problem:
Quote:
It would be OK on -project though.

My little finger is speaking (yep i'm ash)
krinn's little finger wrote:
What let you think you'll get your head cut speaking in the tyran's castle but not if you do on the place in front? You'll probably be report (hey that's democracy!) by the tyran ; than face the tribunal that is rule by... oh lol the tyran. Case closed.


This wake up my middle finger, but it have nothing to say...


Right On!
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steveL
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Btw, Neddy even already gave you a solution to your problem
You see, you always do this.
You frame the discussion so that it is about the person making a point, not the point being made.

You did the same thing in another thread, positing that I only had a "problem with the facts", as if that were any sort of point at all.

When you can see what I am talking about, without trying to deflect into personalisation, we might have something to discuss.

Until then, your problem stops you from seeing the picture others are discussing, and leads to vacuous argumentation that does not have any meaning.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
szatox wrote:
Btw, Neddy even already gave you a solution to your problem
You see, you always do this.
You frame the discussion so that it is about the person making a point, not the point being made.
You did the same thing in another thread, positing that I only had a "problem with the facts", as if that were any sort of point at all.
I only see you're way softer than I thought you are. Fine, I got this part. As a friendly remark, being offensive towards others (people at dev lm in this case) and being easily offended is not a good combination.
Quote:

When you can see what I am talking about, without trying to deflect into personalisation, we might have something to discuss.
Until then, your problem stops you from seeing the picture others are discussing, and leads to vacuous argumentation that does not have any meaning.

Where do I "deflect into personalisation*"? Be honest, please, let's sort it out in 1 or 2 posts.

*You can skip the bit on me misjudging thickness of your skin.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been honest already, and given you two examples, one of which is on this webpage.

Disingenuous really is boring.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WRT the substantive, there is (or used to be) a saying amongst Gentoo devs:

List discussion stays on-list.

This is especially vital when one is discussing something that can be seen as "Constitutional" wrt how the list operates.

Stopping Joe User from commenting, definitely counts as this.
DRobbins was quite vocal about it, when setting up Gentoo, and this was accepted even back in the days when the "devs" were trying to hobble any real moderation ("proctors") before it got started.

From where I am sitting, it looks like an attempt to stifle any discussion about the awful upcoming EAPI-7, from all those pesky cross-compilers.

Well, that and deliver us into the hands of RedHatGooglePlex, supine and compliant as a testbed. ("every distro has crazy users, right? we can just ignore them..")

As mv pointed out, users are what have made Gentoo strong.
Ignore or sideline them, at your peril.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org/msg83122.html

Another one.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

{deleted} "And men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil."

Last edited by Tony0945 on Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Hu
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
https://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org/msg83122.html

Another one.
Realistically, you cannot legislate good behaviour at this level of granularity. If the developers don't want feedback from non-developers, they can ignore it just as readily by ignoring the posts to the forum as by explicitly stating that the GLEP does not go through the forum.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
https://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org/msg83122.html

Another one.
Realistically, you cannot legislate good behaviour at this level of granularity. If the developers don't want feedback from non-developers, they can ignore it just as readily by ignoring the posts to the forum as by explicitly stating that the GLEP does not go through the forum.
And then we get the mess that is ffmpeg and libav imposed on gentoo users....
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
And then we get the mess that is ffmpeg and libav imposed on gentoo users....

I know this is a very popular example; but in the end that mess is a consequence of the choice expected of Gentoo by its users. There are a lot of other examples not getting the same credit as ffmpeg/libav: jpeg vs. libjpeg-turbo, imagemagick vs. graphicsmagick, libressl vs. openssl... regardless of how all those started, they are a mess or ultimately getting there. But no one would appreciate the developers forcing any one of those options or omitting the other.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Naib wrote:
And then we get the mess that is ffmpeg and libav imposed on gentoo users....

I know this is a very popular example; but in the end that mess is a consequence of the choice expected of Gentoo by its users. There are a lot of other examples not getting the same credit as ffmpeg/libav: jpeg vs. libjpeg-turbo, imagemagick vs. graphicsmagick, libressl vs. openssl... regardless of how all those started, they are a mess or ultimately getting there. But no one would appreciate the developers forcing any one of those options or omitting the other.
but this example is a clear indication to influence the choice NOT associated with choice in general when developers, one with a vested interest, decided to bias the choice and convolve the means to choose. This is before even raising the topic of politics getting in the way of security and sanity to push something that was not form fit and functional... so it isn't comparable with your examples of choice... it is comparable to developers not listening to their userbase, which is easier to do if they disavow the community
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krinn
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
If the developers don't want feedback from non-developers, they can ignore it just as readily by ignoring the posts to the forum as by explicitly stating that the GLEP does not go through the forum.

There's a difference still between seeing users comments while ignoring them and not seeing any because none could be made.
The very same difference between not giving a damn about the thousand people yelling and walking in the street and disallowing anyone in the street.

So they don't want forum to be use for GLEP while restricting with a white list the mailing list : aren't they just changing GLEP 1 from getting gentoo community comments to gentoo devs only comments?
This also mandate that, as only dev ml could be use for GLEP instead of forum, no users could do any GLEP anymore.

A tiny change that is huge.
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bunder
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

we actually have a developers subforum on fgo, sadly it gets (quite literally) zero usage. it hasn't had a legitimate post since 2012 or 2014.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologize to anyone from a non-American culture who was offended by my previous post who was offended by my previous post or anyone at all who misconstrued its colloquial meaning and usage and was thereby offended. My only intent was to offend secretive and dictatorial devs and I specifically do not apologize to them.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
https://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org/msg83122.html

Another one.
I see what you mean.
Once the "precedent" has been established, they move ahead swiftly to ensure that other processes are exclusionary of the userbase, too.

The excuse this time being that "we haven't been following our own rules" ("so let's get rid of them".)

That says it all for me, and I don't see the point in commenting further on the Gentoo Putsch, since it has already happened.

Ant: in other topics, you've mentioned your overlay with older ebuilds, and ebuilds with correct dependency information (rather than trying to force everyone to upgrade for the sake of it.)
Is that publically accessible?
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Ant: in other topics, you've mentioned your overlay with older ebuilds, and ebuilds with correct dependency information (rather than trying to force everyone to upgrade for the sake of it.)
Is that publically accessible?

Yeah, it's in layman nowadays and there's a link to the repo on my wiki user page.

It's kind of drifted away from that goal in the meantime, I've cleared out a lot of things I no longer use and what's left is highly niche stuff and temporary patches from bugzilla. You might be disappointed if you were expecting anything like the sunset overlay.
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
https://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org/msg83122.html

Another one.
I see what you mean.
Once the "precedent" has been established, they move ahead swiftly to ensure that other processes are exclusionary of the userbase, too.

The excuse this time being that "we haven't been following our own rules" ("so let's get rid of them".)

That says it all for me, and I don't see the point in commenting further on the Gentoo Putsch, since it has already happened.

Ant: in other topics, you've mentioned your overlay with older ebuilds, and ebuilds with correct dependency information (rather than trying to force everyone to upgrade for the sake of it.)
Is that publically accessible?


Going back some 12 years or so, when I first installed Gentoo, one of my earliest observations were how isolated the devs kept themselves from the community and how insular the dev community was. Despite Gentoo needing help then, they seemed to do everything they could to dissuade users from becoming devs. There was endless bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy and you were either part of the clique or you were out. That mentality became even more pronounced when a certain group of devs made a large political push in an effort to control Gentoo and force their will on everyone else. Having gained political power, those same devs have abused it the same way their friends in Debian did. This just another natural step on their path.
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