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CasperVector
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
A quick glance at the docs page tells me it's functional, which means most admins are going to have switch mental gears when they work in it.
By all means show us some examples which prove me wrong, or I'll check for some next time I come online. I know functional languages are good for writing parsers for other languages.
Sure you can provide the same format. However if I have to switch to (functional (programming) (in (order to) implement)) anything, then it's not going to fly, afaic.

The core advantange of Lisp is not functional programming, but homoiconicity (in a way superior to many other homoiconic languages, perhaps except for Mathematica):
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=15805 wrote:
In the beginning Turing created the Machine. And the Machine was crufty and bogacious, existing in theory only. And von Neumann looked upon the Machine, and saw that it was crufty. He divided the Machine into two Abstractions, the Data and the Code, and yet the two were one Architecture. This is a great Mystery, and the beginning of wisdom.


steveL wrote:
Yes, I like rc; it's aimed explicitly at the scripting side of it, which is ofc much less to worry about.
Most of the "baggage" in shell comes from it having to cope with random user input at the terminal. (It helps to bear that in mind when scripting it, ime; it makes it much easier to relax into quoting, for a start.)
I like execline too; it has a different niche. Though personally I'd roll it into standard arg processing, on a "--!" parameter.

I would be glad to know, specifically, which of the historical baggages that came from "having to cope with random user input" are still necessary with scsh or rc(1).
IMHO execline is a misguided (but not malicious; I fully trust the integrity of Laurent :) creation, and would be simpler yet more flexible if reimplemented in Scheme.

steveL wrote:
For the reasons stated above, you will never supplant the shell in UNIX. As a direct consequence, every admin worth the name, and every user who is not a total end-user, knows it, and uses it regularly; daily and routinely on the part of admins.
It makes much more sense to let that knowledge work for you, rather than force busy admins and other people who might be able to patch and will definitely be able to QA, to switch headspace.
At least from where I'm sitting, typing on a machine built with the results of that proven approach.

I do not want to force the Lisp / Unix (the latter might be Plan 9 + djb-esque design) reconciliation on anyone. However, I am convinced that Lisp (at least Scheme) is, in many aspects, more Unix-ish than C.
(BTW, I do not consider Scheme to be the Ultimate Language: see the last paragraph of this post for a glimpse of what I personally imagined.)
I believe the reconciliation will result in a system of significantly lower total implementation complexity, yet much higher flexibity: IOW, better adherence to the Unix philosophy.
And the Unix philosophy is, by the way, the only technical means by which we can get rid of control by big companies like the one which attempts to push systemd everywhere.
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proteusx
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Gentoo leaves democracy" to become an Idiocracy.
The Sylvester Stallone film, where in the not so distant future, all restaurants were Pizza Hut, and they had wall mounted bad language detectors to automatically fine offenders, also comes to mind.
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bunder
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's just sad. While two wrongs don't make a right by posting irc logs to mailing lists, I can't say I agree with led up to it. I can't even talk in #gentoo and comrel says they can't help me, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of power play going on. He really should have filed a bug, and dealt with it that way. If filing a bug doesn't/can't help, then I'm not sure what else there can be done. :(
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bunder wrote:
While two wrongs don't make a right by posting irc logs to mailing lists, I can't say I agree with led up to it. [...] He really should have filed a bug, and dealt with it that way. If filing a bug doesn't/can't help, then I'm not sure what else there can be done. :(

bunder ... it could be argued that there were grounds for drobbins to act outside of the usual channels (ie, comrel) given that the complaint (re mgorny) made by him in the previous bug/ban wasn't acted (or followed up) on. If this is a case of "whistleblowing" then I think there is an imperative that overrides the "public posting of private conversations with the intention to discredit", because any such rules are intended to protect the innocent, not to provide a shield for those who would be "discredited" were their actions to be made public (I'm reminded of the recent arguments made WRT the inviolability of "attorney client privilege", and of the case made against Antoine Deltour).

best ... khay
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, there is no excuse for drobbins' campaign...
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proteusx
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Posting mgorny's irc remarks has not discredited him in the least, and besides nothing posted on the internet is really private.

Upon reading the altercations I would side with mgorny rather than drobbins.

However, banning drobbins (isn't he our founding father?) for this, or for calling someone an arsehole is infantile.
Argue with the man, do not ban him. We are not an Ursuline nunnery here. A few expletives here and there serve to spice up the discussion. Also, drobbins has an intelligent turn of phrase and I enjoy reading his posts.
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

proteusx wrote:
However, banning drobbins (isn't he our founding father?) for this, or for calling someone an arsehole is infantile.
(He is.) I think there's more than just a single insult behind this. I really haven't cared enough to go too deep into the ml portings of this topic.
proteusx wrote:
Argue with the man, do not ban him.
I kinda agree. But the clutter (off topic) from the arguing, that fills the actual conversation, must be dealt in some way.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People,

It occurred to me a couple days ago that I was arguing pointless bullshit on a thread that I don't actually care about. This constitutes trolling. I hate trolls especially when I'm the troll, and I hate hypocrisy especially when I'm the hypocrite.

I would like to apologize for my trolling. I originally posted because I did not and still do not see the Gentoo community as a democracy, but that still does not address what is happening with dev-ml. What happened since I first posted here, when i look at it through the lens of time, is clearly trolling on my part even though I didn't think so at the time.

I don't particularly care about dev-ml. I have never followed it and don't even know its actual purpose. I don't anticipate following it in the future. I DO care that regular users have a voice, and that the powers that control Gentoo listen too that voice. I don't believe that voice must be manifested as write permission to every single communication channel in the organization.

I started apologizing to a few of the people I argued against in PMs but they're not the only ones who suffered through my BS. I don't want to derail the current discussion as it seems productive and concerned about real events which I have not followed.

I would not object to having a forum administrator clean up this thread. I seriously doubt that any of my posts would remain after that (except maybe this one), and probably most of the responses anyone made to me would be gone too.

Feel free to PM me and rant. I get passionate about discussions and that happens whether I have a leg to stand on or not. In this case I have none.

It's clear to me now that mv has raised a valid point that needs to be discussed. I don't want my sole contribution to that discussion to be a massive distraction.

Nothing in this post is intended to be an excuse, only an explanation.

Thanks.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

proteusx wrote:
Posting mgorny's irc remarks has not discredited him in the least, and besides nothing posted on the internet is really private.

Just because leaks happen does not mean they should be tolerated.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
I would like to apologize for my trolling.
This is a rare sight on discussions on the internet. You have my respect, 100% of it.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Just because leaks happen does not mean they should be tolerated.

asturm ... that entirely depends on what interests are being served. Also, what constitutes "private conversations" in such cases, it there an implicit NDA that anyone privy to the "development process" is constrained by?

The Gentoo Charter (emphasis mine) wrote:
Every aspect of Gentoo is and remains open. Gentoo does not benefit from hiding any of its development processes (whether it is source code or documentation, decisions or discussions, coordination or management).

best ... khay
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A 1-on-1 conversation is not part of the development process. Do we now need to contractualise every aspect of human interaction to know what's right or wrong?
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
A 1-on-1 conversation is not part of the development process.

asturm ... I can't see how you can argue that mgorny as acting as a private individual in this case, the subject matter is entirely gentoo related, and so "part of the development process."

asturm wrote:
Do we now need to contractualise every aspect of human interaction to know what's right or wrong?

That isn't what was being argued, and as I said, the right and wrong of it depend on what interest is being served.

best ... khay
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
This is a rare sight on discussions on the internet. You have my respect, 100% of it.
++
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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hard to say, it's like if a certain President of a great nation has paid an cinema industry worker to not say she has slept (yeah he have trouble finding sleep) with him while married.

If she is say it, while they do have agreed to slept with each other, would you think she is doing that for:
1/ truth
2/ money (making a book about will sure make money, or selling the story)
3/ discredit that President (like if she could do more harm than what he is doing himself)

The question is then, does she discredit him for saying it, or because it is true?
If the answer is, because it's the truth, then saying it is still breaking privacy (which is bad imo), even her intention is not to discredit the President himself (dunno why, i think she goes more toward option #2, time will tell), the result might still be because of "HIS" action, not her ; except if she say that and she is lying of course, this would put discredit for a bad action that President didn't made.
And if he was himself all good in his shoes (well, for a French, this is ridiculous, all our Presidents are getting all women they could ; with respect of course, our Presidents aren't cave guys, why would you want be President if it's not for that (*), the place stinks, always someone somewhere to bug you and you're paid like 1/100 of what a big industry guy earn each month), why he has first paid her to remain silent ;)
(i think the explain on the why, is first because the big country population have a kinda huge different view than French when it comes to cheating your wife)

I agree drobbins shouldn't have release that to public, first because you don't need this private message to get an idea, second, because the ones he try warn against that, are just already aware of it, they do interact themselves with him, and it's also sure he speak like that with many in private.
But i don't think drobbins has create that message, and so, you cannot blame drobbins for any discredit made by the message content if the content wasn't create by him, if any discredit were made, it was a result of what was said, not because it was made public.

* of course women aren't men's toys, this is only speculation i'm making, the real reason is certainly because with such power they need a lot of good advises to take good decisions for the country, and who else than women could provide them that!


Last edited by krinn on Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pjp
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why did this suddenly become a Trump thread?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Why did this suddenly become a Trump thread?
No one mentioned Trump before you. :twisted:
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
pjp wrote:
Why did this suddenly become a Trump thread?
No one mentioned Trump before you. :twisted:
Technically, yes, pjp was the first to mention Trump by name, but krinn's hypothetical is so clearly based on current events in the US that it was a mention in all but name.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
Technically, yes, pjp was the first to mention Trump by name, but krinn's hypothetical is so clearly based on current events in the US that it was a mention in all but name.
Yes. Tehnically. There was a lot of sarcasm in between the words I wrote. ;)
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Why did this suddenly become a Trump thread?

pjp ... because nothing speaks opprobrium, and the ethical and political questions that surround it, than that particular individual. While krinn's, perhaps ill advised, analogy could have the potential to derail the thread, the substance of the analogy does point to the subject ... all we need do is to focus on what purpose the analogy serves ... and leave the question of that name aside.

krinn wrote:
I agree drobbins shouldn't have release that to public, first because you don't need this private message to get an idea, second, because the ones he try warn against that, are just already aware of it, they do interact themselves with him, and it's also sure he speak like that with many in private.

@krinn ... it seems to me neither of those justifications address the question of why the release of such "private conversations" warrant censure. There is nothing (ie, some form of implicit, or explicit, agreement) that would make the act punishable, in fact the opposite, the charter's "open" principle would place the entire conversation (business conducted by developers) as non-private.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

proteusx wrote:
Posting mgorny's irc remarks has not discredited him in the least, and besides nothing posted on the internet is really private.
asturm wrote:
Just because leaks happen does not mean they should be tolerated.
Only a total newb, or a complete bulshytter, would expect "confidentiality" over a plaintext channel like IRC, designed for broadcast communication.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
it seems to me neither of those justifications address the question of why the release of such "private conversations" warrant censure. There is nothing (ie, some form of implicit, or explicit, agreement) that would make the act punishable, in fact the opposite, the charter's "open" principle would place the entire conversation (business conducted by developers) as non-private.

Sorry, i'm European, worst, i'm French, and worst of the worst, i'm old, so maybe some French new facebook generation take less care about privacy, but holly shit, for an old French like me, the subject is just not open! Privacy or die!

I agree with you on that: CoC doesn't punish privacy breach, as such, he shouldn't be punish for this (even if i would really find that myself bad to break it).
Because privacy protection is what make people say things they wouldn't say in public, you're more free to speak, because you can say something without having to backup yourself or justify it with hundreds of word, you want a simple example?
I couldn't say : all French are bitches (well, here i could, because it's an example), because he could be read as racist, first because public don't know if really i'm French or not, second because it's just stupid as not base on any real data and it's pure speculation ; but doing that with my friends, i don't have to tell them millions words to prevent them to sue me or blame me or whatever these crazy French would do to me. It's even funnier, because my interlocutor could agree with me, while he is himself a French (and the "so called" bad phrase or insult, is including him so).
So it's arguable to speak about the value of a person, base on his private message. I'm not racist myself, but i have (yes, sad to say) plenty racist friends, in public they take care to keep their poison, they are also friendly with my other French, but not French born friends ; but in private, they do say racist things to me ; and did i care, not really, they are my friends, and well, this dark side is coming with them, and i accept it, because even they are wrong on this, they are still my friends.
Same, i have Jews friends, and they do jokes about Jew with me, i myself avoid doing this too much (but i do too), but they aren't closed mind, and know a joke is a joke, and most joke are made against someone/something ; French have a real lot of jokes about Belgium (read: against) ; still i don't think the French culture is racist against Belgium.
Anyway, the point is, you will never see me or my Jews friends doing Jew joke publicly, while we do in private.

And if they release some private about me, then you could only come to the conclusion that krinn is: racist and racist hater, gay and gay hater, Belgium hater, French hater, men hater, women hater, baby hater, Pottering hater (ah well, some might be even be true), gentoo hater or puppies hater (i'm stopping but the list is just "any word" follow with hater).
It depends also on with whom i'm speaking with, while i could do Jew jokes with my Jew friends, i take great care not doing it with my racist friends, because well, i won't like if they would comment it, so no need to push them, and my racist friends also do that, they take care to not express their racism anger with me (well, as much as they could).

This to point, judging value of someone for what he is saying in private is well, hard and arguable ; even if he say "i'll like take women by their pussy", just because i could in private say myself "fuck, we should kill all babies, they keep crying and shitting everywhere!", and last time i have check my doctor didn't tag me as a babies serial killer still.

So as i say, he (drobbins) has done shit for me doing so, but CoC have no entry against that, but they are basing bug #1 on insult, and bug#2 on "the wanted goal is discredit someone".
For bug#1, drobbins argue it's base on a known for gentoo devs usage of the word, and i tend to agree with him, else why not opening a bug also against the video author? He is gentoo dev and use the word in the video.
For bug#2 If the goal was the truth and discredit is a side effect of what mgorny has said, then i don't see why someone should be punish for saying the truth.

But, like French said: "Qui veut noyer son chien l'accuse de la rage"... (i will let you google translate it this time, to not translate it bad, and make you learn French a few, because we sucks, but our language is the most beautiful and subtle in the world!)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
, but our language is the most beautiful and subtle in the world!)

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/nYggKeP
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
krinn wrote:
, but our language is the most beautiful and subtle in the world!)

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/nYggKeP

Yeah so pussy to say 81, when you could say 4 (20) and 1 (four twenty one), but that's also the number of subtle we have just to express love :)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
but our language is the most beautiful and subtle in the world!

Truth. Italian being the second.

Mostly what I've heard has been Canadian French and Louisiana French which I suspect sounds strange (outre ?) to "real" French speakers.

Even in Italy, there is a marked difference between the Northern language and the Southern. My grandfather was born in Calabria and I found a web page by his home town. It included local proverbs including a translation from Italian (local) into Italian (official)!
Here in the USA, the most extreme differences that I have heard were Boston Massachusetts compared to Jackson Mississippi.
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