[Solved] OT³ Copy a Windows 10

[Marlo]

Hello @,

Yesterday I bought a heavily discounted desktop. It is a Ryzen system with an M2-SSD on which a Windows 10 OEM version is installed.
The computer can be upgraded with a Samsung SSD that I have.

My goal is to prepare the M2-SSD for Gentoo and to first copy the Windows 10 to the SSD and use it from there.

Samsung offers the "Data Migration Software". The description explains: "The OEM recovery partition created by the computer manufacturer as a factory setting will not be cloned."

I have no Windows 10 experience and therefore ask the question:
Is it still possible to safely use the cloned version? Are there any other points I should look out for?

I'm thankful for any hints
Ma
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[1clue]

Can't answer your direct question, but I can offer the probably-obvious advice that you should leave your original drive completely untouched until you find out for sure.

[The Doctor]

Cloning is a PITA. Your better off to do a clean install with the windows key on the box. As long as you posses the physical box and only have one install for the key you can do this. It would even be permissible to put windows in a VM.

Although if the goal is simply to move the windows install I fail to see any benefit. You can simply shrink partitions for spacing concerns.
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First things first, but not necessarily in that order.

Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box.

[1clue]

[The Doctor]

[pjp]

[1clue]

OEM installs are what comes on the computer when you buy from dell, hp or wherever you get your pc. It is licensed by the manufactureer of the hardware and the key will not work on an installer downloaded from Microsoft. If you call the microsoft help line they will tell you to contact the manufacturer of the pc, or buy a Microsoft operating system.

You can download the iso from microsoft and install it, and you get a couple months before you need to install a key. But a microsoft key will not unlock an oem windows and an oem key will not unlock a microsoft installer.

[pjp]

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit - OEM (newegg)

Microsoft Software | Windows 10 Home 64 Bit System Builder OEM | PC Disc (amazon)

I have read that once installed, they become tied to your hardware and cannot be moved to another system, but I don't know that with certainty.
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Quis separabit? Quo animo?

[charles17]

[Marlo]

Thank you all for the many hints,

[The Doctor]

Be very careful with this. One key=one install. Microsoft has been known to cancel keys when too many installs are running with it.
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First things first, but not necessarily in that order.

Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box.

[charles17]

[1clue]

[The Doctor]

[krinn]

[1clue]

I did a lot of testing builds with Microsoft operating systems. Different license types have different tolerances for number of re-installs.

We had an MSDN account with software testing licenses, back when that's what they did. I don't know now because I don't deal much with that part of it anymore. But it used to be that if you were a software developer/tester and used that type of license, you could install as many times as you wanted into a VM, as long as you only had one system active per key. So, for example, I could automate a testing process that actually installed Windows and entered a license key, and run that process several times a day with no ill effects.

For an off-the-shelf home license on the other hand, I think changing major hardware 5 times and they probably lock it down. Or less.

MSDN had a list of keys you got, some software products they gave you up to 3 or 4 keys, most of them you only got 1. So if you had 3 keys of something you could have 3 active systems with that product, each having their own key.

It's still one installed system per key though.

[1clue]

For the purpose of clarification, there are two different definitions of OEM on this thread.

Some are referencing OEM Windows as what comes from Microsoft on a CD, for which you buy a separate license.

I have always referred to OEM Windows as being what comes pre-installed on the computer you buy.

When you buy a car, drive it for a few years and start to replace parts on it, the OEM part is the exact same part that the factory put on the car originally. So if you want an OEM muffler it will be the same manufacturer and model that the manufacturer put it on as it went through the assembly line. An "aftermarket" part was something else, that you buy separately from the purchase of the new vehicle.

In my experience working with technical support of computer companies like Dell or HP or whatever, they refer to the OEM Windows as what Dell or HP or whatever installed on the system before you bought it. That doesn't make the installer from Microsoft into an 'aftermarket' Windows, but various other terms have been used, like 'genuine Microsoft' or 'pristine' or other terms.

In that sense, if you have a computer you bought and it has a Windows key and a pre-installed Windows that works for it, and that installed system has a bunch of demo-ware on it, that is the OEM system. If you use the 'restore to factory' feature on your system then the OEM system is what you get. The key you get with that system will work on only a handful of other identical systems from that manufacturer. As I said before, the manufacturers we used to buy crates of systems from in bulk keyed them so that any given installer CD worked with as few as 20 physical systems, and then you needed a new CD and new keys. These installations are tied to specific motherboards, specific processors and possibly other required hardware. Change too much and they don't work. Certainly, you CANNOT run this type of Windows inside a VM and expect it to work, even if the VM is on the same physical box that it was originally installed on. Virtualized hardware is NOT the same exact hardware that your system has installed.

The 'pristine/genuine Microsoft' installer will install on pretty much anything, and the license key will work on any system which was installed with that specific ISO. If you abuse the license and install it multiple times on different hardware, Microsoft will eventually get sick of it and mark your license key as dirty.

[krinn]

Let's clarify oem then:
- retail/box version: no limit to hardware change
- oem: a limit to hardware change, i don't remember well, but i think the limit was 3, maybe 5, but no more.
What is hardware change, that's the problem there, because only MS really knows what will be consider an hardware change or not, at least, video cards are not count as one, and a m/b do.
- genuine: genuine Windows is just a registered Windows: with your own key, you register the Windows version ; the problem is there because the key is use with another key (and that other key is a finger print of your hardware) ; hence the resulting "register" key may change if hardware change too much.
So both oem or box are genuine, box could only end genuine, and oem may fail to end genuine if you have change too much the hardware and exhaust your limit.
- box version is ~3.5x,4x the prize of oem version, oem version could only be sold by computer specialist (not only computer maker, computer specialist refer to a company that is register to sold computer related product), it's then per example illegal to sold oem version as user, even you have never use it. Box version could be sold by anyone. Amazon may not be a computer specialist seller but doesn't themselves sold it, you use a vendor thru amazon, but this mean if any vendor is not a computer specialist in amazon and he is selling oem version, you better not buy it. A vendor may be a professional, still it must be a computer professional, as only them have rights to buy oem license from microsoft. If you just trust his pro status without checking his computer related status, you take a risk. It is that simple, oem are sold cheaper by MS, and MS only sold them to computer specialist, keep also in mind: oem version support is done by the vendor, which mean the guy you are buying it from. Which for common user is not that much of an issue, but for the story, i remember an hospital having trouble with Windows 2k that mistake their scanner (not the tiny one to scan paper, but a big one that scan human body) for an UPS, and of course Windows was shutting down the computer each time they were turning it on as it was reporting battery too low ; something only MS or toshiba could had been of help with, and MS do have take action and fix it while the admin has taken like 15 years in between (lol really i saw the guy getting older each time i met him).
There's also limited support to oem version ; which mean any oem owner calling MS for anything will just be push out with a "contact your reseller", while box version users may query help from microsoft (which is close to nothing if you're not a professional asking help in real).
- the cdrom is the same for oem or box version, and you can share it with your friend too ; MS don't care you copy Windows (as long as you're not doing commercial crap with it) ; because what matter is the key. So you can gave a Windows cdrom to a friend so he could install it, and use HIS own key with it and this as long as his key is a key for that Windows version.
- Windows upgrade only (going from a version to another), i'm not sure if MS is still doing that ; it was like 70% down the prize of box version, and the limit was that you must gave the older Windows key to install it (or install the old version and upgrade it with that upgrade cdrom) ; but it was not well know for many users that it could just be install on a blank hdd and was querying you to provide older Windows key to continue the installation (which is better than install old one to just upgrade it after).
- any Windows key is limit to one installation at a time, this technically mean you can use any key in Windows VM, but you are not allow to have the key in use by two active Windows at a time (which mean you cannot use the key for the VM and install Windows on another VM or disk).
As stupid as it is, it also mean a backup is ok as long as the Windows cannot work. But backup by cloning the whole disk is illegal because you would had a working Windows which would made more than one ; but i'm sure MS won't get mad about it if you do ; but technically speaking, it's illegal to clone it.
- failure to register after like a month, Windows will start complaining with message (your Windows is not genuine...) and other disturbing procedure, dunno it might even stop working (i suppose it would, but never seen anyone going that much).
- you have also oem hardware: and this is really important to know about it: oem hardware is also only sold by computer specialist, they are bundle in basic plastic or even nothing (like hdd or mouse), but generally no box ; they nearly always lack software associate with it (drivers are not, but for scanner per example oem version may not provide any scanning software with it, while box may provide scanning utility, paint program...). An scsi card may be bundle with scsi cable, while oem version would not.
oem version have also "hidden" limit (you have no paper doc with it, and sometimes not even a cdrom with doc with it), but do have limit, you better ask them to the vendor prior buying it ; as example, some (adaptec) raid oem cards cannot get bios upgrade, while non oem do. The range of limit depends on the hardware (including no limit at all), but really you should query about that when buying them, and because they are only sold by computer specialist, it's something they should known and tell you (even they might not really in mood to share them without been asked).
- dell, or whatever company computer maker is providing oem version, which have the same rules as "classic" oem, the support is done by dell and not microsoft, the key may only be use with that computer, you can also use a normal cdrom from a friend to install a "normal" (without the dell crap preinstall tools) and use the provide key by dell to register that Windows. You may buy a computer from a specialist with a non oem Windows and he might pre install it for you, it would not make it oem, so pre installation doesn't make it oem, however dell and company like that of course install oem version because they pay them less.
- MS also sell Windows version with multi-keys, one server key with X client keys, but that's mostly only for professional (because even a bit cheaper, the bill should kill anyone). You can extend clients key, just by buying more clients keys.

note that my informations are outdate and i don't know the Windows 10 rules for oem, could had change.
just keep in mind: oem is cheaper always for the buyer, but may not always be cheaper when you buy it (you can sell oem version at normal prize, you're a fucking rat, and some do that, if you buy from computer specialist, make sure you pay oem prize and if you pay box prize, make sure to get the box and its content with it, it's easy to pay a video card box prize to end up with an oem one in your computer ; it's even worst for some hardware with oem limitation that you would discover later), oem is cheaper but at cost of packaging (well, not much an issue), and sometimes limit (better ask them!), and should only be sold by specialist, better watch out who sell it to not get stole. (i must say grey market exist, where a specialist sell to another specialist, and this one resell them behind, it's call grey market, i'm not sure about legality of such operations, and it's done more than you think, specially with cpus (mostly because of supply quantity in some countries), and they don't really like that, why, because a computer seller in France should buy cpus from Intel France supplier at Intel France prizes, when you could buy cpus from another computer reseller in India that brought them at Intel India's prize and resell them in France, with enough quantity it might be cheaper even with shipping costs add) ; it's not really an issue with your local computer reseller, it's an issue when you buy from random company in internet ; because if you need support from the maker, the result is random (don't be stupid, with serial number any maker knows to what country the product should had been sold).

I think, even some informations are outdated and need to be check, that should help make it clearer.

[pjp]

[The Doctor]

The box OEM versions of windows are supposed to be bought by people who build a box, install windows, then sell the box. Ie, high end custom PCs. Technically buying it and installing on your own hardware is a violation. It also happens to be a violation that apparently no one cares about, including M$.
_________________
First things first, but not necessarily in that order.

Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box.

[1clue]

You know, clicking on the links supplied here and also doing my own searches, it seems that there's confusion about what "oem" means elsewhere too.

It would almost be easier to start over without using the term "OEM" at all. Reading krinn's post leaves me confused, and I already knew how it worked. On top of that, there's all sorts of talk about "home" vs "pro" and whatever. Those variants are available from both sources.

I think the key difference between the types of licenses is this:

Unmodified Microsoft installer image.

1. Install media image created by Microsoft.
   
2. The support and license key comes from Microsoft.
   
3. Costs a lot because the buyer pays the full price of the Microsoft license.
   
4. Installs on pretty much any computer that can run any Windows.
   

Pre-installed image that came with the computer

1. Install media license agreement between hardware vendor and Microsoft.
   
2. Install media starts the same as above.
   
3. Hardware vendor adds their own tools, drivers and support apps
   
4. Software vendors contract with the hardware vendor to install demo-ware, ad-ware and other "free" installers.
   
5. The support and license key comes from the hardware vendor.
   
6. Due to the contracts with software vendors, most or all of the Windows license fees are paid by the software vendors.
   
7. Often keyed to the hardware by the hardware vendor to only work with a narrow group of machines.
   

I don't mean to change the discussion but it seems that the more we talk about it the less clarity there is.

[krinn]

thanks pjp for correction on amazon

[Marlo]

1035/5000
Thanks to all for the many helpful information.

As suggested, I downloaded a Win10.iso directly from Microsoft.
So I have done a clean Win10 installation on the M2-SSD. Afterwards, I removed the M2-SSD and stored it safely.
On the Samsung SSD I have repeated the installation of Win10. In the settings this message appeared:
"This system has been activated with a digital license". The input of a separate key was not necessary.
But in the .iso of Microsoft was also included advertising for games and xing.
However, the "digital license" makes it easy to delete or reinstall Windows 10.

I still have opensuse Leap 42.3 installed on the Samsung SSD. From there in chroot genntoo on a new, larger M2.
Only the kernel still makes difficulties. I'm still looking for the right settings for the motherboard. It's only a matter of time.

Thanks again to all for the detailed explanations!
Ma
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