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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
I'm out. You're only here to win an argument.

Really? Here's your context:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
They're doing the same thing with introducing meson (build system) with no warning, news, etc. Typical boorish behavior from the devs, it seems.

Even reiterated in bold:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
It was about the lack of developer communication with the end users about pkgs, like meson, that will affect more than just a package or two.

If you agree with that, then I really can't help you.
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blopsalot
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so lets get back on topic. asturn you are perpetuating the off topic conversation, this thread is not about meson. it's about a stupid commit beneficial to a select few while wasting everyone's time.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blopsalot wrote:
so lets get back on topic. asturn you are perpetuating the off topic conversation, this thread is not about meson.

I would have very much preferred not to have had the discussion but I'm not obliged to stay quiet when met with knee-jerk remarks either.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blopsalot wrote:
it's about a stupid commit beneficial to a select few while wasting everyone's time.

+1
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Hu
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blopsalot wrote:
Quote:
x11-base/xorg-server: Fix missing revbump after dep change
Fix missing revision bump to propagate removing xf86rushproto
dependency. Otherwise, all systems with xorg-server installed can't be
upgraded to xorg-proto due to impossible blockers.

Closes: https://bugs.gentoo.org/648926
Was the lack of a bump a mistake or a deliberate choice?
Anon-E-moose wrote:
My post and point wasn't about whether they used meson or not, or it's viability.
Having did a little reading/googling, it seems to be a reasonable attempt at a build system.

It was about the lack of developer communication with the end users about pkgs, like meson, that will affect more than just a package or two.
The same thing with going -suid, a simple news release would be nice.
What exactly about meson is important for end users to know? Will installing it break some other application? Is it unusually large or inefficient at its job? In short, as an end user, why should I care that upstream added a dependency on meson?
Anon-E-moose wrote:
It takes maybe 5 minutes to make a news post, and that's if one is a two finger typist.
What exactly do you propose as criteria for these news posts? Should every new dependency earn a news post? If not, then which new dependencies merit news posts and which ones can be passed silently?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

acrew it

Last edited by blopsalot on Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
My post and point wasn't about whether they used meson or not, or it's viability.
Having did a little reading/googling, it seems to be a reasonable attempt at a build system.

It was about the lack of developer communication with the end users about pkgs, like meson, that will affect more than just a package or two.
The same thing with going -suid, a simple news release would be nice.
What exactly about meson is important for end users to know? Will installing it break some other application? Is it unusually large or inefficient at its job? In short, as an end user, why should I care that upstream added a dependency on meson?


For me it was a surprise that meson and python3 were trying to be pulled in, when I did an sync/emerge.
I doubt I'm the only one running a python2 system.
I didn't know what meson was, before I googled it.
But I wanted to know why certain pkgs were being pulled in, which I think is reasonable.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I doubt I'm the only one running a python2 system.

If you really run a python2 only system at this point I would say you are part of a very tiny minority.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would rather get rid of 2.7. the problem now is we stuck with two. it adds alot of MB to custom stage3.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I may add a few words, I would like to point out that:

1) People often choose Gentoo because it offers a lot more control over what gets installed on one's system. When surprises (like what triggered this thread) happen, that often pushes the wrong buttons.

2) Gentoo is a volunteer project, and developers do not get paid for their work. Also, Gentoo is perpetually understaffed, and developers have limited time and energy. It is often a thankless task, and more often than not feedback is only received when something goes wrong. When users are demanding better solutions to their problems, that can come across as entitled, pushing the wrong buttons.

I hope we can try to understand each other more, and avoid name-calling. Let's try to achieve better solutions thru working together. Gentoo really is a community project. Devs are simply users with commit access.

blopsalot wrote:
i would rather get rid of 2.7. the problem now is we stuck with two. it adds alot of MB to custom stage3.


This is actually another topic, but also one I am interested in. I used to have a python 2.7 only system for the longest time, exactly because I dislike the useless duplication. Then I went away for a while, and having recently returned, I am now looking into the feasibility of a 3.5 only system.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
If I may add a few words, I would like to point out that:

1) People often choose Gentoo because it offers a lot more control over what gets installed on one's system. When surprises (like what triggered this thread) happen, that often pushes the wrong buttons.

2) Gentoo is a volunteer project, and developers do not get paid for their work. Also, Gentoo is perpetually understaffed, and developers have limited time and energy. It is often a thankless task, and more often than not feedback is only received when something goes wrong. When users are demanding better solutions to their problems, that can come across as entitled, pushing the wrong buttons.

I hope we can try to understand each other more, and avoid name-calling. Let's try to achieve better solutions thru working together. Gentoo really is a community project. Devs are simply users with commit access.

blopsalot wrote:
i would rather get rid of 2.7. the problem now is we stuck with two. it adds alot of MB to custom stage3.


This is actually another topic, but also one I am interested in. I used to have a python 2.7 only system for the longest time, exactly because I dislike the useless duplication. Then I went away for a while, and having recently returned, I am now looking into the feasibility of a 3.5 only system.


the trend lately is to take that control away and "you get what we think is best". testing is so sporadic with the plethora of overlays, glitches in the tree are often overlooked. My attempts to fix problems were ignored before I became so outspoken about this. I am not simply bitching without having attempted to change with my own work. my first action was a pull request for a trivial change. after it sat for months, my ebuild skills increased dramatically, and i am beginning to wonder what most of these people do besides stand on the shoulders of those that came before them. To be toxic to someone offering to help because they naive to the culture and nuances of gentoo development is bizarre and there is no rational explanation for it.
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yngwin
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blopsalot wrote:
My attempts to fix problems were ignored before I became so outspoken about this. I am not simply bitching without having attempted to change with my own work. my first action was a pull request for a trivial change. after it sat for months, my ebuild skills increased dramatically,

That's great that you're trying your bit to contribute! I know it can be a frustrating experience, until you've got a workflow set up. Are you on IRC? Especially the #gentoo-proxy-maint channel is a good one to get attention for your PRs and working with devs to get them into the right shape.

Unfortunately, things do often fall between the cracks, so a combination of patience and persistence is needed.
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blopsalot
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
blopsalot wrote:
My attempts to fix problems were ignored before I became so outspoken about this. I am not simply bitching without having attempted to change with my own work. my first action was a pull request for a trivial change. after it sat for months, my ebuild skills increased dramatically,

That's great that you're trying your bit to contribute! I know it can be a frustrating experience, until you've got a workflow set up. Are you on IRC? Especially the #gentoo-proxy-maint channel is a good one to get attention for your PRs and working with devs to get them into the right shape.

Unfortunately, things do often fall between the cracks, so a combination of patience and persistence is needed.


No, the truth is I made base system people look stupid because I called them out on their mishandling of ncurses, so now they attempting to ignore me to cover for their oversight instead of admitting error and moving on.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judging by $language here and conduct in other recent threads, I can see why people would ignore you...
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Judging by $language here and conduct in other recent threads, I can see why people would ignore you...


you mean the threads where you started name calling because its your group of friends I am questioning publicly.

IS THIS A COMMUNITY PROJECT OR A DICTATORSHIP?????

here's the text:
Quote:

Created attachment 511626 [details]
patched ebuild

I am oblivious to the political side of things and I am by no means knocking GNU, but they have been slow and disorganized lately with ncurses. Considering Thomas Dickey's long history, involvement, and knowledge of ncurses and curses libraries in general, IMHO it would be wise to switch to his development cycle. cdk ebuild in portage already follows this scheme. I believe being closer to an active upstream, Gentoo will improve both in stability and security.

I am no expert in portage but I am using this ebuild, its mostly original with only change being sourcing. It is stable for my use case. glibc ~amd64


http://invisible-island.net/ncurses/NEWS.html
https://invisible-mirror.net/archives/ncurses/current/
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blopsalot wrote:
IS THIS A COMMUNITY PROJECT OR A DICTATORSHIP?????

I hate to admit the answer.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Competent and effective dictatorship is far more preferable
than a corrupt democracy run by posers, sloths and dimwits.
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Hu
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a community project run by humans, most of whom likely react better to polite interactions than public shaming. Even if their actions deserve a shaming (and I have not followed along to even know which actions are under discussion, much less judge whether they are shameful), publicly belittling people is unlikely to get them to cooperate with you. Once you establish a reputation for unpleasantness, it's much harder to get people to work with you later.
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blopsalot
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is only one person here resorting to public shaming and similar degenerate type behavior. Here's another example of a my past exchange on my concerns with Pacho, who had the decency to at least comment on the matter. Anyone who tries to say I have not been friendly and civil unless confronted and provoked is flat out lying.

I am only assuming they are trying to pretend it's broken by design as that seems to be a reoccuring theme here. Fact remains, every single distro follows TD's snapshot dates for versioning. The reasoning is that he allows for enabling/disabling features through symbol versioning which changes even though the ABI does not.

Quote:

Ah, I have seen you already did... I have assigned it to proper people and I
have also CCed myself as I am also interested

See you!

El mar, 26-12-2017 a las 13:19 +0100, Pacho Ramos escribió:
> Personally I would start opening a bug report in bugs.gentoo.org to suggest
> its
> maintainers to switch to the new fork if wanted.
>
> El mar, 26-12-2017 a las 04:08 -0600, Paul Joseph escribió:
>> It seems difficult to get through to anyone. GNU has been disorganized
>> with ncurses, issues have lingered for too long. Thomas Dickey is
>> involved in GNU Project and has been the primary contributor to ncurses
>> for over 20 years. It reflects negatively on Gentoo when such a critical
>> system is updated on the ~ side so infrequently.
>>
>> IT took me a while to overlook this as well, so I just figured I'd try
>> to help.
>>
>> https://invisible-mirror.net/archives/ncurses/current/
>>
>> http://invisible-island.net/ncurses/NEWS.html
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Paul
>>
>> On 12/25/17 04:29, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>>> El dom, 24-12-2017 a las 22:56 -0600, Paul Joseph escribió:
>>>> Hey,
>>>>
>>>> My name is Paul, I've used Gentoo since early days, 2002ish on a
>>>> pentium3 . I've learned so much lurking on forums through the years,
>>>> i'd like to give something back.
>>>>
>>>> My skills and interests for exceed woeusb, I just use it sometimes, I
>>>> thought that it would be a good place to start, if not, I'd love another
>>>> project.
>>>>
>>>> Quick Question? Have you guys talked about switching ncurses sources to
>>>> Thomas Dickeys page, gentoo already switched to his style on cdk. Its
>>>> working fine for me installed through portage.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, and HAppy Holidays
>>>>
>>>> Paul J
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I am not ncurses maintainer (that is base-system@gentoo.org
>>> project),
>>> hence, they will know much more then me about it. But as far as I can see
>>> from
>>> latest ebuild, it seems it's relying on GNU tarball for providing our
>>> ncurses
>>> lib
>>>
>>> Best regards
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:47 am    Post subject: Re: RFE: news item for new build dependencies Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
[Moderator note: this post, and all posts up to and including the first post from proteusx, were originally posted in [SOLVED] xorg-server-1.19.5-r1 suid use-flag removal, but were off-topic for that thread. -Hu]

NathanZachary wrote:
I think that the worst part is that there wasn't a news item about it. I don't mind procedure changes, but I need to know about them.


They're doing the same thing with introducing meson (build system) with no warning, news, etc. Typical boorish behavior from the devs, it seems.

The only reason I mention this, is during the latest sync, I saw that python3 (which is not installed) was trying to be installed along with meson.
I had to go google to see what this latest cluster-f**k from the devs (python3/meson) is all about.

I shouldn't have to wonder what new stuff is being put on my system, that's what news articles are supposed to be for.
And I don't really want to hear, "well it was discussed on the dev's iirc" not all of us have the time or inclination to deal with that silliness.

Is there still no good 3rd party solution to the abandoned "emerge --changelog" functionality? I miss that feature.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blopsalot wrote:
asturm wrote:
Judging by $language here and conduct in other recent threads, I can see why people would ignore you...

you mean the threads where you started name calling because its your group of friends I am questioning publicly.

it adds to the picture that you can't take it when you are called out for blunder only once.

PS: While you are using the plural for your attempts to solve issues in Portage, one single neglected bug while unfortunate is not enough data points to make a point about it.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
blopsalot wrote:
asturm wrote:
Judging by $language here and conduct in other recent threads, I can see why people would ignore you...

you mean the threads where you started name calling because its your group of friends I am questioning publicly.

it adds to the picture that you can't take it when you are called out for blunder only once.

PS: While you are using the plural for your attempts to solve issues in Portage, one single neglected bug while unfortunate is not enough data points to make a point about it.


Speak more simply, you are thrashing the English language, I get the gist of it, but you're obviously exceeding your grasp here. What are you referring to specifically?

if your views represent that of the Gentoo Foundation, then it gives others very little recourse aside from forking the tree. If base system is not receptive to constructive criticism, than in my world, they are incompetent and immediate replacement is necessary. I get carried away at times and I am wrong at times, but my ideas are solid and I never projected anything in such a way that I alone have all the answers. Gentoo is what it is today because of many people's intersecting ideas. You are turning it into a computer club of mostly people of similar backgrounds/cultures, with very little interaction outside of their bubble, and zero ability to work with others. Thanks but no thanks. My tiny forked tree just went live on my production servers. It's still rough but at least I do not have to expect abrupt breakage from someone tinkering in the main tree with stuff that should be getting tested in a staging area or years old libraries of questionable reliability and security focus.

This is my @#@# $@# to the people who prioritized financial gain over community development. I suppose it gets confusing when your paycheck is tied to the distribution in many ways, but hopefully they taught engineering ethics at your schools and you learned how to apply it to life.

You are toxic and a disgrace to the Gentoo name.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you could learn some humility... so far it is only you that is spewing vitriolic posts while simultaneously expecting priority for your findings.

Does Gentoo have its problems? sure... ivory tower, not listening, forcing the views of 1-2 people on the masses (ffmpeg is a case point...) BUT those that work on it are good technical people and as long as a report is sound it will be acted upon
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
you could learn some humility... so far it is only you that is spewing vitriolic posts while simultaneously expecting priority for your findings.

Does Gentoo have its problems? sure... ivory tower, not listening, forcing the views of 1-2 people on the masses (ffmpeg is a case point...) BUT those that work on it are good technical people and as long as a report is sound it will be acted upon


I forked. I expect nothing. Yeah ffmpeg and x264 ebuilds were some of the first to be rewritten. Convoluted garbage. Bye everyone, its been fun.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
... ivory tower,

Rats in the basement is the metaphor I'd use.
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