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cokey
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flysideways wrote:
cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
cokey wrote:
Armed police don't stop shootings in the US so why think that putting them in schools would work?

Curious. You have access to empirical data that I do not. Please cite this information so that I can assimilate it into my reasoning.
because there are still shootings in the US.

Is that empirical enough?


http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-european-school-shootings12-pg-photogallery.html
https://www.frontpagemag.com/point/169699/europe-has-same-rate-multiple-victim-shootings-daniel-greenfield
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/timeline-tragic-school-shootings-1642690.html
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers_(Europe)[/url]
https://www.expatica.com/be/news/country-news/Mass-shootings-in-Europe_306243.html

Your trope is tired.
eh? I don't see your point
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cokey
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
cokey wrote:
Is that empirical enough?

No, it's not. It's not even close.
Well then you don't understand empirical. Or language. Or common sense.

As for the rest, I couldn't care less
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cokey
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
For anyone who has ever popped an E, you know that feeling of being deeply connected and empathetic to everyone you are around... that's from the flood of serotonin that is released. SSRIs inhibit serotonin... just imagine that.

Now look at the rate of SSRI use with these school shooters.
No they don't, completely the opposite in fact. SSRIs are re-uptake inhibitors so they make your body produce MORE - hence increasing mood
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
That was Jihad, a different animal altogether.


I don't see why that makes a difference to this conversation.

From what I can tell, we have had just one successful Jihadist mass shooting.

juniper wrote:
So you confirmed all of them were not in gun free zones.

Everything I found out about Texas law at the time said that guns aren't allowed in churches. If I found that information, I might think all attendees and the gunman would as well. This is not something I should have to explain.

juniper wrote:
So, the deadliest shooting (Vegas) was not a gun free zone, and neither were the other two I mentioned, and they both rank quite highly on the list too.

No, and the Apollo 13 service module also had faulty oxygen lines, but that didn't make it an inherently unsafe vehicle. You don't get to take outliers and act as if they are the norm. That is not how reason works.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
Muso wrote:
For anyone who has ever popped an E, you know that feeling of being deeply connected and empathetic to everyone you are around... that's from the flood of serotonin that is released. SSRIs inhibit serotonin... just imagine that.

Now look at the rate of SSRI use with these school shooters.
No they don't, completely the opposite in fact. SSRIs are re-uptake inhibitors so they make your body produce MORE - hence increasing mood


Cokey is closer on this one. The transmitting neuron expels serotonin to the receptors of the receiving neuron and then reabsorbs them. SSRIs block that reabsorption making it so the existing serotonin keeps hitting the receptors.

The problem is probably not the SSRI, it is what the SSRI is treating. Treatment requires faithful dosing of the medication as well as professional monitoring by a mental health professional. That's not something we do well at. We've stigmatized mental illness rather than treated it.


All that said suicidal ideations are possibly a side effect of taking SSRIs. Neurochemistry is hard. Serotonin is known to do things but it probably also does other things and when we mess with neurochemistry, we are hijacking entire cascade systems within cells that we don't fully understand.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
From what I can tell, we have had just one successful Jihadist mass shooting.


Still a shooting and lots of death. Just because they are muslim it doesn't count? odd accounting going on.

juniper wrote:
Everything I found out about Texas law at the time said that guns aren't allowed in churches. If I found that information, I might think all attendees and the gunman would as well. This is not something I should have to explain.


let me get this straight. you are claiming that it was a de facto gun free zone because people went on the internet and found this law? riiiiiight.

juniper wrote:
No, and the Apollo 13 service module also had faulty oxygen lines, but that didn't make it an inherently unsafe vehicle. You don't get to take outliers and act as if they are the norm. That is not how reason works.


the oxygen line on the Apollo 13 may not have been inherently dangerous but they also weren't designed to be. Guns are designed to kill. Not only are they inherently dangerous that's their raison d'etre.
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wswartzendruber wrote:
Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
flysideways wrote:
I will posit that someone who is not to be trusted with a weapon in civil society really does not deserve to roam freely within that civil society, but, well ... responsibility and all.

Why? In other areas of life, we have graduated levels of trust - just because you have the right to walk on the sidewalk, doesn't mean you have the right to drive a car on the street. And just because you have a drivers license, doesn't mean you have the right to drive a big-rig.

Why must the default setting for guns be "full trust"?


Huh. I don't think I should be trusted with a weapon because I don't know how to properly fire or store one. Yet, the number of people I have killed, or merely injured, is 0.

But hey if you want to live in an authoritarian place where people must carry weapons...

what a strange test for whether someone should be roaming free.
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wswartzendruber wrote:
Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartz wrote:
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Listen, I do not give a flying fuck about what a stable person chooses to spend their money on. But raving lunatics, I don't want them having any damn weapons.


given there are enough guns one for each man woman and child, how do you propose to keep guns from these people? You wouldn't have to make it impossible for them to get a gun. What you would need to do is make it difficult.
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wswartzendruber wrote:
Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Still a shooting and lots of death. Just because they are muslim it doesn't count? odd accounting going on.

Compared to mass shootings in the U.S. as a whole, the ones motivated by jihad account for a tiny fraction of casualties. In fact, I believe you lot have a bigger problem with this than we do.

juniper wrote:
let me get this straight. you are claiming that it was a de facto gun free zone because people went on the internet and found this law? riiiiiight.

That is exactly how carrying a gun works. You don't just get to go anywhere you want and the responsibility is on you to determine if you should go some place.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
Still a shooting and lots of death. Just because they are muslim it doesn't count? odd accounting going on.

Compared to mass shootings in the U.S. as a whole, the ones motivated by jihad account for a tiny fraction of casualties. In fact, I believe you lot have a bigger problem with this than we do.


agreed. Jihadists are a small fraction of the shooters. but i don't know why you decided to separate by motivation all of the sudden. We are talking about mass shooting here. The ones in schools, clubs by jihadists, and crazies. We are talking the whole works.

yes, we do have a worse problem with jihadists.

I think mass shooting are actually a red herring. your big problem is your overall homicide rate and you police homicide rate. That's where much more work needs to be done.
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wswartzendruber wrote:
Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need larger "Gun Free Zone" signs at these schools. Apparently these people are unaware they are not allowed to have a gun on school property.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
but i don't know why you decided to separate by motivation all of the sudden.

Understanding the motivations of mass shooters is the key to thwarting their behavior. Jihadists, for example, seek to be martyred while killing infidels. In this way, they are not afraid of armed opposition nor does it ever serve as a deterrent to them. They simply have to be killed with superior force as they are encountered.

The typical American mass shooter, on the other hand, avoids gun zones like the plague and instantly offs himself at the first sign of resistance. They will either do this, or retreat and then surrender without incident.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
We need larger "Gun Free Zone" signs at these schools. Apparently these people are unaware they are not allowed to have a gun on school property.
And because you (you and other defenders) havn't come up with a viable alternative the disgust will keep getting more vocal until the bottom feeders that are politicians will need to do something to stay voted in or people will stop supporting (financially or by votes)

Sort out your mental health support or it really doesn't matter what you think because the masses will get things change as you find you are then the minority in thinking
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Old School wrote:
We need larger "Gun Free Zone" signs at these schools. Apparently these people are unaware they are not allowed to have a gun on school property.
And because you (you and other defenders) havn't come up with a viable alternative the disgust will keep getting more vocal until the bottom feeders that are politicians will need to do something to stay voted in or people will stop supporting (financially or by votes)

Sort out your mental health support or it really doesn't matter what you think because the masses will get things change as you find you are then the minority in thinking
I think I have made it plain that I believe the underlying problem really is medications given to people in combination of recent detrimental societal norms; starting with the devaluation of the life, even of the most vulnerable of those among us.

I think we have established that there really is no such thing as a gun free zone.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I want to know is this...why did kids only recently start shooting schools up?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
starting with the devaluation of the life, even of the most vulnerable of those among us.

Please tell us more about it.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
What I want to know is this...why did kids only recently start shooting schools up?
social media and the demonisation of all things male gender
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Old School wrote:
starting with the devaluation of the life, even of the most vulnerable of those among us.

Please tell us more about it.
Don't patronize me. You do not want to hear.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
What I want to know is this...why did kids only recently start shooting schools up?


good question. Is it true (i.e. are there in fact more mass shootings by children now)?

The only thing I know is that homicides are way down in the US (and Canada) from the 90s.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
good question. Is it true (i.e. are there in fact more mass shootings by children now)?

It's obscene. It's like 1970 rolled around and some people lost their shit, then the 1990s came on and everyone just lost their minds.

juniper wrote:
The only thing I know is that homicides are way down in the US (and Canada) from the 90s.

I can appreciate that.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
asturm wrote:
Old School wrote:
starting with the devaluation of the life, even of the most vulnerable of those among us.

Please tell us more about it.
Don't patronize me. You do not want to hear.

Empty phrase I'll have to assume then.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Empty phrase I'll have to assume then.
Have to? What groups would you put on a list of "most vulnerable of those among us" where us refers to the US, or "first world" civilizations in general? It's a short list.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For all of the Democrat threats to the second amendment, the real threat may have just arrived.

$

Prominent Republican Donor Issues Ultimatum on Assault Weapons
Quote:
A prominent Republican political donor demanded on Saturday that the party pass legislation to restrict access to guns, and vowed not to contribute to any candidates or electioneering groups that did not support a ban on the sale of military-style firearms to civilians.

Al Hoffman Jr., a Florida-based real estate developer who was a leading fund-raiser for George W. Bush’s campaigns, said he would seek to marshal support among other Republican political donors for a renewed assault weapons ban.

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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't GWB's party anymore. If they (the GOP) go through with this, their NRA support is gone.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
For all of the Democrat threats to the second amendment, the real threat may have just arrived.

$

Prominent Republican Donor Issues Ultimatum on Assault Weapons
Quote:
A prominent Republican political donor demanded on Saturday that the party pass legislation to restrict access to guns, and vowed not to contribute to any candidates or electioneering groups that did not support a ban on the sale of military-style firearms to civilians.

Al Hoffman Jr., a Florida-based real estate developer who was a leading fund-raiser for George W. Bush’s campaigns, said he would seek to marshal support among other Republican political donors for a renewed assault weapons ban.
what did I say... 5 posts up. Society sets the direction and society are getting sick of seeing this happen and nothing is being done to mitigate this very american problem.

A donor has threatened to pull money, the NRA could threaten to pull money... before you know it an independent politician comes in with ties to none BUT has the voice of the community. If a viable, workable, implementable (and done quickly with visible changes) doesn't occur soon it won't be long...
The celebrities are getting in on this, they have seen how much they can swing public opinion with the #MeToo & it is now being focused on to guns
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