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juniper
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
cokey wrote:
Muso wrote:
A young psychopath.
Isn't it the ability of the young and the psychopaths to get hold of these weapons the problem?

If you can't keep them out of their hands by means of rules then you should keep them out of their hands by way of lack of opportunity

Obviously, he'd have just used something else, like the various home-made bombs he had been experimenting with. Or, he'd pliw a car into a crowd of people. There is only one viable solution: put chips in their heads.


it's harder to build bombs then get a ready made gun. Terrorists too vote with their feet.

No one walks anywhere in the US :lol: , so the car is a non-issue.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
If you use the evil government argument at least do it right by saying RPGs, Planes, Apache helicopters and other military grade equipment should be legal because that is what it would take to stop the US government
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=NFA+destructive+device
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Muso wrote:
A young psychopath.

He's more than that: He forces us to reasses how active shooters behave. School shooters have, until now, never willfully engaged armed resistance.
If I were an "active shooter", I'd have a plan for the resulting urban warfare...

But before that, I'd wipe all hard drives, install Windows with nothing on it but all of the latest Justin Bieber albums and the last three Barbie games. That'll give 'em something to think about...
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we have a sign or sticky post (with lots of strikethrough) that says ' xx days since last mass shooting'?
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
Okay, that's all good, and maybe you've got a point there, but what about what cokey said. He says it's for the greater good of the people of a civilized nation if only their government is allowed to have dangerous weapons, so they can't hurt each other. That sounds pretty smart, don't you think? I mean, come on: it's the greater good, man. How you gonna argue against the greater good. Do you hate facts, science and logic? And he's British, and they know what they're talking about.
I'm fine with hunting weapons, just with severe restrictions. I hunt myself.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zixnub wrote:
Can we have a sign or sticky post (with lots of strikethrough) that says ' xx days since last mass shooting'?
or just a countdown from 30
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
I hunt myself.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

What's the last big game you hunted? :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The real sad thing is, that seemingly intelligent people argue in extremely idiotic and selfish ways (to keep their precious precious guns) to make it look like gun control would bring nothing.
Well, it does! Everwhere else at least...

In the USA things are different. Very different. At least what the words "common sense" mean, it seems...
How else can you Americans explain, that the Trump administration rolled back Obama-era restrictions that had been passed in the wake of Sandy Hook, right after the Las Vegas massacre? This roll-back made it easier for people with mental illness to buy guns. Wow. (Of course "the National Rifle Association had pushed for the repeal, and Republicans argued it infringed upon Second Amendment rights by denying due process." :roll: )
So what is that good for? "We can't treat our mentally ill, so give'em guns!" ???

It's that circle of madness that costs so many lives:
  • Stricter gun laws help preventing gun deaths!
  • "But we need to be able to defend ourselves!!!"
  • "Not if firearms were illegal."
  • "But...but... my Second Amendment rights! (*whinewhinecrycry*)"
  • "Oh, right... So no stricter laws then."
  • "Fine! Everyone can buy guns!"
  • "But then more gun violence can occur!"
  • "Then lets loosen the laws, so people can defend themselves!"
This is (roughly) the chain of argument, mainly propagandized by the NRA, that allows potential killers to easily buy guns for decades now.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:

How else can you Americans explain, that the Trump administration rolled back Obama-era restrictions that had been passed in the wake of Sandy Hook, right after the Las Vegas massacre? This roll-back made it easier for people with mental illness to buy guns. Wow. (Of course "the National Rifle Association had pushed for the repeal, and Republicans argued it infringed upon Second Amendment rights by denying due process." :roll: )
You probably do not know that the ACLU, hardly a right wing group, supported the repeal of the Obummer order. You see, Obummer didn't even go through the legislative process. Like the Third World dictator he always strove to become, Obummer just unilaterally signed an executive order, which allowed Trump and Congress to easily repeal. That is how I can explain it. :roll: See, I can do a 13 year old girlie eyeroll too.

Quote:
The American Civil Liberties Union actually sided with Republicans in urging the repeal of the rule, writing in a letter to members of Congress that, "We oppose this rule because it advances and reinforces the harmful stereotype that people with mental disabilities, a vast and diverse group of citizens, are violent."

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
You probably do not know that the ACLU, hardly a right wing group, supported the repeal of the Obummer order. You see, Obummer didn't even go through the legislative process. Like the Third World dictator he always strove to become, Obummer just unilaterally signed an executive order

Obama just unilaterally signed an executive order? Wow, I guess he really was a dictator. Since Trump is "unilaterally" signing more executive orders then Obama did, I guess he is an uber-dictator or something?
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
...

Your post mentions "gun deaths" as if that matters. Why don't you look at homicide as a whole across the world and then tell me that we are crazy.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Old School wrote:
You probably do not know that the ACLU, hardly a right wing group, supported the repeal of the Obummer order. You see, Obummer didn't even go through the legislative process. Like the Third World dictator he always strove to become, Obummer just unilaterally signed an executive order

Obama just unilaterally signed an executive order? Wow, I guess he really was a dictator. Since Trump is "unilaterally" signing more executive orders then Obama did, I guess he is an uber-dictator or something?
Trump is just trying to out do Obummer. I'm just waiting for Trump to assassinate twice as many American citizens as Obummer. Yep, Trump is the devil. Putin is making him do it. :lol:

IT'S THE RUSSIANS!!!!!!!!!

The Donald is so deep in your head, everything is about Trump. :wink:
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
Opportunity's got little to do with it. The opportunity to mow people down in a car is so high, it takes skill and concentration to not do it.
Opportunity IS key with the school shootings. They WANT people to know who's doing it and they want people to be running from them and they often want to be shot by the police. Running people over takes out two of those. With a knife you may get away with stabbing one or two people or even 3 or 4 but by then everyone has run away and stabbing victims survive 9 out of 10 times

Nonsense.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Old School wrote:
You probably do not know that the ACLU, hardly a right wing group, supported the repeal of the Obummer order. You see, Obummer didn't even go through the legislative process. Like the Third World dictator he always strove to become, Obummer just unilaterally signed an executive order

Obama just unilaterally signed an executive order? Wow, I guess he really was a dictator. Since Trump is "unilaterally" signing more executive orders then Obama did, I guess he is an uber-dictator or something?

It makes perfect sense if you think about it. Trump has to issue an executive order for every one that Obama did so he can undo all those undemocratic abuses of power: so he automatically starts off with at least the same number that Obama had. Then, on top of that, he has to issue any that he himself wants. So really, Trump would have to do twice the number of executive orders that Obama did in order to merely match him, never mind outdo him. Think about it. Or, more to the point, why didn't you think of that yourself? Oh wait, I already know why, never mind.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Old School wrote:
You probably do not know that the ACLU, hardly a right wing group, supported the repeal of the Obummer order. You see, Obummer didn't even go through the legislative process. Like the Third World dictator he always strove to become, Obummer just unilaterally signed an executive order

Obama just unilaterally signed an executive order? Wow, I guess he really was a dictator. Since Trump is "unilaterally" signing more executive orders then Obama did, I guess he is an uber-dictator or something?
Trump is just trying to out do Obummer. I'm just waiting for Trump to assassinate twice as many American citizens as Obummer. Yep, Trump is the devil. Putin is making him do it. :lol:

IT'S THE RUSSIANS!!!!!!!!!

The Donald is so deep in your head, everything is about Trump. :wink:

I told you: Democrats have gone on an epic Lemmiwinks journey up their own ass.
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
cokey wrote:
I hunt myself.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

What's the last big game you hunted? :lol:
Trump's ego. Plenty of roe deer round me and one hunt has chinese water deer.

I have a tweed jacket and everything :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
...

Your post mentions "gun deaths" as if that matters. Why don't you look at homicide as a whole across the world and then tell me that we are crazy.
That's pretty easy: http://static1.uk.businessinsider.com/image/54637f2add08959c5b8b4577-908-577/screen%20shot%202014-11-11%20at%205.56.18%20pm.png
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, no. Nice graph, but it actually proves you wrong. Do you need it explained to you?
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Old School wrote:
You probably do not know that the ACLU, hardly a right wing group, supported the repeal of the Obummer order. You see, Obummer didn't even go through the legislative process. Like the Third World dictator he always strove to become, Obummer just unilaterally signed an executive order

Obama just unilaterally signed an executive order? Wow, I guess he really was a dictator. Since Trump is "unilaterally" signing more executive orders then Obama did, I guess he is an uber-dictator or something?

It makes perfect sense if you think about it. Trump has to issue an executive order for every one that Obama did so he can undo all those undemocratic abuses of power: so he automatically starts off with at least the same number that Obama had. Then, on top of that, he has to issue any that he himself wants. So really, Trump would have to do twice the number of executive orders that Obama did in order to merely match him, never mind outdo him. Think about it. Or, more to the point, why didn't you think of that yourself? Oh wait, I already know why, never mind.

Yes, since Obama was the first US president, that makes perfect sense.
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
So, no. Nice graph, but it actually proves you wrong. Do you need it explained to you?
Obviously.

Please tell me how a graph that shows higher homicide rates per 100,000 people in the US compared to the UK, Canada, Australia and the Netherlands actually says they are the same or lower.

Please tell me how an intentional homicide rate of 4.88 in the US is less or equal to 0.92 in the UK
Please tell me how an intentional homicide rate of 4.88 in the US is less or equal to 0.61 in the Netherlands
Please tell me how an intentional homicide rate of 4.88 in the US is less or equal to 1.68 in Canada
Please tell me how an intentional homicide rate of 4.88 in the US is less or equal to 0.98 in Australia

Please tell me how the graph says anything but it's almost 5x more than those countries?

Please, I'm dying to know. I'm serious! This could be a breakthrough in maths of monumental proportions!
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
So, no. Nice graph, but it actually proves you wrong. Do you need it explained to you?
Obviously.

Please tell me how a graph that shows higher homicide rates per 100,000 people in the US compared to the UK, Canada, Australia and the Netherlands actually says they are the same or lower.

Please tell me how an intentional homicide rate of 4.88 in the US is less or the same as 0.92 in the UK
Please tell me how an intentional homicide rate of 4.88 in the US is less or the same as 0.61 in the Netherlands
Please tell me how an intentional homicide rate of 4.88 in the US is less or the same as 1.68 in Canada
Please tell me how an intentional homicide rate of 4.88 in the US is less or the same as 0.98 in Australia

Please tell me how the graph says anything but it's almost 5x more than those countries?

Please, I'm dying to know. I'm serious! This could be a breakthrough in maths of monumental proportions!

:facepalm:

The graph shows is the homicide rate in the US dramatically increasing and then decreasing, while regulation of guns has remained virtually unchanged. It demonstrates that homicide rates are a sensitive function of something -- something that's NOT firearms restriction. This invalidates your main argument.

What you focus on instead, which doesn't take a time-series graph to show, is the difference between the average homicide rate in the US and some selected Western countries. You also jump to the conclusion that this must be due to gun rights, Ignoring that we already KNOW (above) that homicide rate must be largely a function of something else. In addition to that stupidity, you ignore the misleading cherry-picking so obvious in this graph.

It should jump right out at you, but it doesn't because of your deep bias. If you re-did this graph to reflect reality, with the axis starting at zero and including all industrialized countries, you'd have a graph showing the homicide rate in Western countries is not only virtually the same, it's negligible.

These are the main things anyone sees in that graph if they are both educated and capable independent thought.

Why do you allow your thinking to be driven so far afield from objective reality? You are being herded, in very Orwellian fashion, to submit to authoritarian violation of your basic rights, and you're not only submitting, you're joining enthusiastically in the chanting as you stare at the image of Big Brother with Love and a tear in your eye.

And, you're obnoxious about it, flaunting your ignorance loudly in our faces. You're a walking, talking tragedy, oblivious to your own pitiable state. Snap out of it. Your Countrymen need you to pull your head out of your ass, Neo!
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
cokey wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
So, no. Nice graph, but it actually proves you wrong. Do you need it explained to you?
Obviously.

Please tell me how a graph that shows higher homicide rates per 100,000 people in the US compared to the UK, Canada, Australia and the Netherlands actually says they are the same or lower.

Please tell me how an intentional homicide rate of 4.88 in the US is less or the same as 0.92 in the UK
Please tell me how an intentional homicide rate of 4.88 in the US is less or the same as 0.61 in the Netherlands
Please tell me how an intentional homicide rate of 4.88 in the US is less or the same as 1.68 in Canada
Please tell me how an intentional homicide rate of 4.88 in the US is less or the same as 0.98 in Australia

Please tell me how the graph says anything but it's almost 5x more than those countries?

Please, I'm dying to know. I'm serious! This could be a breakthrough in maths of monumental proportions!

:facepalm:

The graph shows is the homicide rate in the US dramatically increasing and then decreasing, while regulation of guns has remained virtually unchanged. It demonstrates that homicide rates are a sensitive function of something -- something that's NOT firearms restriction. This invalidates your main argument.

What you focus on instead, which doesn't take a time-series graph to show, is the difference between the average homicide rate in the US and some selected Western countries. You also jump to the conclusion that this must be due to gun rights, Ignoring that we already KNOW (above) that homicide rate must be largely a function of something else. In addition to that stupidity, you ignore the misleading cherry-picking so obvious in this graph.

It should jump right out at you, but it doesn't because of your deep bias. If you re-did this graph to reflect reality, with the axis starting at zero and including all industrialized countries, you'd have a graph showing the homicide rate in Western countries is not only virtually the same, it's negligible.

These are the main things anyone sees in that graph if they are both educated and capable independent thought.

Why do you allow your thinking to be driven so far afield from objective reality? You are being herded, in very Orwellian fashion, to submit to authoritarian violation of your basic rights, and you're not only submitting, you're joining enthusiastically in the chanting as you stare at the image of Big Brother with Love and a tear in your eye.

And, you're obnoxious about it, flaunting your ignorance loudly in our faces. You're a walking, talking tragedy, oblivious to your own pitiable state. Snap out of it. Your Countrymen need you to pull your head out of your ass, Neo!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That was pathetic. I mean REALLY pathetic. Next time just dont reply 8) 8) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones wrote:
The graph shows is the homicide rate in the US dramatically increasing and then decreasing, while regulation of guns has remained virtually unchanged. It demonstrates that homicide rates are a sensitive function of something -- something that's NOT firearms restriction. This invalidates your main argument.

Cokey, he could have stopped right there, and blown your pathetic argument out of the water. The murder rate is not dependent upon the tool used, whether it is a gun, knife, or baseball bat. It is societal, pure and simple. Your society. This shit did not happen like this when I was just a kid like you.
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I know is, we've got guns in Idaho. We've got AR-15s (including full autos), suppressors, easily concealable handguns...we've got guns guns guns coming out of our ears. Residents don't even need a license to carry anymore!

Uh, I think the Treasure Valley area (pop. 664K) had a murder last January.
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
Bones wrote:
The graph shows is the homicide rate in the US dramatically increasing and then decreasing, while regulation of guns has remained virtually unchanged. It demonstrates that homicide rates are a sensitive function of something -- something that's NOT firearms restriction. This invalidates your main argument.

Cokey, he could have stopped right there, and blown your pathetic argument out of the water. The murder rate is not dependent upon the tool used, whether it is a gun, knife, or baseball bat. It is societal, pure and simple. Your society. This shit did not happen like this when I was just a kid like you.
it wasn't an argument, it was a fact, the numbers don't lie. You are too prejudiced to look at it with a clear mind.

I understand you thinking the US should be working towards some hippie utopia and it's a noble thought but it's not going to happen. Working towards making your society safer is always the answer and gun control is just one part of that because there is no one solution. I've never been for a total prohibition on firearms, just ones that can be hidden easily and those whose very nature is to do as much damage as possible.

And just in case you still think you are right maybe you should go back and look what I was replying to, i.e. rates v rest of the world. :roll:
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