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notageek
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flysideways wrote:
That wouldn't be very law abiding of them.

Do you have an expectation that you will be the cause of them "losing their shit", making you a target?
Gun enthusiasts seem to be losing their shit on their own, for example this recent incident shot 58 people dead and injuring 851. Maybe he didn't like country music, maybe 1000+ people looked at him funny to make him lose his shit.
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notageek
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
By numbers maybe but the largest geographically.
So wouldn't it be a reasonable expectation that owning guns in a densely populated area (i.e. many people living in a geographically small area) is not only dangerous but unnecessary? Also how does one explain ownership of guns that are able to fire multiple rounds per minute?

The Doctor wrote:
No, since actually buying one doesn't need to coincident with a specific threat. Many people own power tools. It does not follow that all the buildings in the US are crumbling down.
So what triggers the need for buying guns? If there isn't any threat, that can be effectively countered by guns, what is the reason you're buying guns, at such huge rate? Do you buy a car when you have no reasonable expectation of driving it? Or for that matter do you buy anything that you have no need for?

The Doctor wrote:
The point is that it doesn't. Ban guns and they switch to knives and still kill a very large number. In fact, a larger number than a comparable population with guns in the given example.

Guns are not the causal factor of violence. It just proves that if you have a hammer everything looks like a nail.

A single shooter is able to kill tens of people and injure 1000s as recent incidents have shown. Imagine a person (or persons) with knife (or knives) trying to do that? What is he going to do... throw 58 knives at people?

The Doctor wrote:
Some of us actually try to see outside our bubbles.
So far I've seen no evidence that people living in gun bubbles are capable of doing that. They seem to be believing in pre-fabricated propaganda that somehow is able to tie gun ownership to a certain identity and way of life.

You don't really need guns to maintain that way of life or keep that identity.

The Doctor wrote:
Given that the most deadly terrorist weapon in history was a Boeing 767 hijacked with razor blades, that statement is a non sequitur.

EDIT: And it should go without saying, but you don't need a reason to make something legal in a free society. You need a good reason to make it illegal.
There are several reasons for making gun ownership illegal. Certain people just don't see it anymore.

Actually, given that quite a few gun manufacturers are having hard time doing business and going bankrupt because of falling sales, it's only matter of time that gun ownership becomes illegal.
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Last edited by notageek on Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
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notageek
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Interesting. Okay, let's spar. For as long as you can offer intelligent debate, I will discuss this with you. When you start to bore me, I will move on.
You need to cross that threshold before you ask others to be there. I read your responses and they're juvenile. Try harder.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Also how does one explain ownership of guns that are able to fire multiple rounds per minute?
A flint lock is about the only type of gun that takes more than a minute to reload. Practically any gun will fire multiple rounds per minute. That kind of rate of fire is necessary to do basically anything well.

If your asking about guns that are fully automatic or nearly so then there is no point as I've already answered that question. I completely reject your all or nothing stance.

notageek wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
No, since actually buying one doesn't need to coincident with a specific threat. Many people own power tools. It does not follow that all the buildings in the US are crumbling down.
So what triggers the need for buying guns? If there isn't any threat, that can be effectively countered by guns, what is the reason you're buying guns, at such huge rate? Do you buy a car when you have no reasonable expectation of driving it? Or for that matter do you buy anything that you have no need for?
What are the triggers for buying table saws, belt sanders, TIG welders, or sports cars? There is usually no reason other than you want one and that is enough. It doesn't negate their usefulness when the need arises.

notageek wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
The point is that it doesn't. Ban guns and they switch to knives and still kill a very large number. In fact, a larger number than a comparable population with guns in the given example.

Guns are not the causal factor of violence. It just proves that if you have a hammer everything looks like a nail.

A single shooter is able to kill tens of people and injure 1000s as recent incidents have shown. Imagine a person (or persons) with knife (or knives) trying to do that? What is he going to do... throw 58 knives at people?
No, someone with that kind of foresight would probably make a bomb or mix up some sarin or something. It isn't exactly difficult.

notageek wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Some of us actually try to see outside our bubbles.
So far I've seen no evidence that people living in gun bubbles are capable of doing that. They seem to be believing in pre-fabricated propaganda that somehow is able to tie gun ownership to a certain identity and way of life.

You don't really need guns to maintain that way of life or keep that identity.
You don't know that because you don't understand it.

I've lived my entire life in gun country. I can shoot with reasonable precision, care for a firearm, etc. and never felt the need to own one. Then again, I do have a rather nice collection of sharpened swords, so...

notageek wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Given that the most deadly terrorist weapon in history was a Boeing 767 hijacked with razor blades, that statement is a non sequitur.

EDIT: And it should go without saying, but you don't need a reason to make something legal in a free society. You need a good reason to make it illegal.
There are several reasons for making gun ownership illegal. Certain people just don't see it anymore.

Actually, given that quite a few gun manufacturers are having hard time doing business and going bankrupt because of falling sales, it's only matter of time that gun ownership becomes illegal.
You wish.

First, you can't demonstrate why they should be illegal. You just make blanket statements and hope something sticks.

Second, loosing specific manufactures just means fewer brands. Gun manufacturers have very large and very stable customer bases.
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notageek
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
A flint lock is about the only type of gun that takes more than a minute to reload. Practically any gun will fire multiple rounds per minute. That kind of rate of fire is necessary to do basically anything well.
Then by that account practically all guns are unnecessary for civilians. You don't need them.

The Doctor wrote:
If your asking about guns that are fully automatic or nearly so then there is no point as I've already answered that question. I completely reject your all or nothing stance.
Good for you.

The Doctor wrote:
What are the triggers for buying table saws, belt sanders, TIG welders, or sports cars? There is usually no reason other than you want one and that is enough. It doesn't negate their usefulness when the need arises.
Are you seriously saying people buy tools for no reason? Seriously?

The Doctor wrote:
No, someone with that kind of foresight would probably make a bomb or mix up some sarin or something. It isn't exactly difficult.
Actually it is difficult, at-least more difficult than buying guns and pulling triggers.

The Doctor wrote:
You don't know that because you don't understand it.
I understand it plenty. Guns = Muhricaa!! Constitution! God! USA! USA!

The Doctor wrote:
I've lived my entire life in gun country. I can shoot with reasonable precision, care for a firearm, etc. and never felt the need to own one. Then again, I do have a rather nice collection of sharpened swords, so...
Good for you.

The Doctor wrote:
You wish.

First, you can't demonstrate why they should be illegal. You just make blanket statements and hope something sticks.

Second, loosing specific manufactures just means fewer brands. Gun manufacturers have very large and very stable customer bases.


I think there have been many incidents lately that demonstrate why civilian gun ownership is unnecessary and should be illegal.

Gun manufacturers now have a shrinking customer base. Less and less people want guns and understand why they're completely unnecessary.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, thank you for proving my point notageek. You don't know what you are talking about, don't want to, and attempt bully everyone into accepting your edicts as fact.

Thanks for playing.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Well, thank you for proving my point notageek. You don't know what you are talking about, don't want to, and attempt bully everyone into accepting your edicts as fact.

Thanks for playing.


No thank you for proving my point.

That you don't really need guns and completely incapable of independent critical thought, when faced with evidence. But that's okay. It's only a matter of time only that gun loving bubbles disappear.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What evidence? You have posted nothing but your opinion for the past 2 pages. Don't project your lack of critical thinking skills on the rest of us.

Some people can actually make an intelligent argument for gun control. You are not one of them. The real irony is that I belong on the other side of this debate. However, I refuse to accept scapegoats, fantasies, or fanaticism.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
The real irony is that I belong on the other side of this debate. However, I refuse to accept scapegoats, fantasies, or fanaticism.

Then let's you and I talk. Do you see anything I have said that you disagree with?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
The real irony is that I belong on the other side of this debate. However, I refuse to accept scapegoats, fantasies, or fanaticism.

Then let's you and I talk. Do you see anything I have said that you disagree with?
Not that I can see.

I'm in favor of banning gun types that have a high rate of fire with little or no accuracy since their designed use is indiscriminate shooting of massed targets but I also acknowledge the difficulty in writing such a ban. I also can't see any good reason to outright ban guns designed for hunting, self defense, or hobby shooting. Preventing certain people from owning, yes but only with due process.

In my opinion the biggest problem with guns is a vocal minority who want to absolutely ban them forcing organizations like the NRA to take an absolutest position they would not otherwise hold.
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notageek
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
What evidence? You have posted nothing but your opinion for the past 2 pages. Don't project your lack of critical thinking skills on the rest of us.

Some people can actually make an intelligent argument for gun control. You are not one of them. The real irony is that I belong on the other side of this debate. However, I refuse to accept scapegoats, fantasies, or fanaticism.


What are you talking about?

It's evident from your response that you've failed to read and comprehend my response. I think this is a common pattern among the gun enthusiast populace.

Let's recap:

Guns are be useful for ranchers and farmers. Sure, that may be true but can that need extrapolate to larger populace? No. Absolutely not.
Automatic firearms serve a useful purpose. Except we don't see how in civilian context. You've only claimed to have argued successfully about such needs but they don't actually hold against any common sense.
People buying guns for no real need and according to you people also buy tools for no real need. What absurdity is this?

I don't see how you can honestly claim to have made critical arguments when each of your examples falls flat in the face of common sense.

But hey, enjoy living in the bubble.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Let's recap:
Fine.

notageek wrote:
Guns are be useful for ranchers and farmers. Sure, that may be true but can that need extrapolate to larger populace? No. Absolutely not.
No, in your opinion.You have no evidence to support that. Indeed you left one one example that does: hunting.
notageek wrote:
Automatic firearms serve a useful purpose. Except we don't see how in civilian context. You've only claimed to have argued successfully about such needs but they don't actually hold against any common sense.
No I have not unless you count anything that has a rate of fire above one round a minute as a "automatic firearm." In that case you are using absurd definitions.
notageek wrote:
People buying guns for no real need and according to you people also buy tools for no real need. What absurdity is this?
Have you seen 90% of garages? Most are filled to the brim with things that "could be useful" or only bought for a single project. Or how many men own large pickups which are in pristine condition 10 years later, etc. Claiming that people don't buy things "just because" is absurd.

Besides, if someone lives in a safe area and wants a gun just because and justifies it as for protection who cares? They still bought one, they didn't technically need it for anything and might actually use if for protection. I understand how this concept can be alien to you.

notageek wrote:
I don't see how you can honestly claim to have made critical arguments when each of your examples falls flat in the face of common sense.
I provided examples of where guns are useful. I have also provided an example of how removing guns does not necessarily correlate to reducing violence. That is more than you have done. All you have done is whine and demand we accept your opinion as fact.

notageek wrote:
But hey, enjoy living in the bubble.
Project much?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He probably failed background check.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
No, in your opinion.You have no evidence to support that. Indeed you left one one example that does: hunting.

It's a question of usage. Let me type this very slowly so that you can comprehend.

Ranchers, farmers and hunters may require guns for some use case. Does that use case exist in a civilian, densely populated context? List me instances. It's really common sense.

The Doctor wrote:
No I have not unless you count anything that has a rate of fire above one round a minute as a "automatic firearm." In that case you are using absurd definitions.
Consider a bolt action rifle. You fire a round, you pull the bolt to put a round in chamber. You have to re-aim. You cannot shoot multiple rounds per minute with such a rifle, unless you're extremely well trained.

Consider automatic guns, many if not all have recoil damping, allowing you to shoot multiple rounds per minute without adjusting (or adjusting minimally) your aim. When would you use such a gun? During hunting? What... are you taking out a complete herd or something? In civilian densely populated context when would you use it?

The Doctor wrote:
Have you seen 90% of garages? Most are filled to the brim with things that "could be useful" or only bought for a single project. Or how many men own large pickups which are in pristine condition 10 years later, etc. Claiming that people don't buy things "just because" is absurd.

Besides, if someone lives in a safe area and wants a gun just because and justifies it as for protection who cares? They still bought one, they didn't technically need it for anything and might actually use if for protection. I understand how this concept can be alien to you.


Since people fill their garages with junk, therefore gun enthusiasts should also keep buying guns and fill their garage with guns they don't need. Is that your argument?

If you're concerned about protection, steel reinforced doors and windows AND making houses out of concrete would serve better purpose than buying guns in anticipation of a home invasion.

The Doctor wrote:
I provided examples of where guns are useful. I have also provided an example of how removing guns does not necessarily correlate to reducing violence. That is more than you have done. All you have done is whine and demand we accept your opinion as fact.
The examples you've provided illustrate a very narrow use case. Very narrow.

And actually reducing guns to reduce guns is a direct one-to-one correlation. Less guns, less gun violence. How is that difficult to comprehend?

The Doctor wrote:
Project much?
No projection required, your responses speaks volume.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today before sunset I went to my backyard and did some target shooting with my 9 mm Beretta. That was fun. Why I did it? Because I can.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
Today before sunset I went to my backyard and did some target shooting with my 9 mm Beretta. That was fun. Why I did it? Because I can.
If a person has sufficient space for safety, I don't see any justifiable reason to prevent them from shooting a .50 cal full auto in their "back yard."
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Ranchers, farmers and hunters may require guns for some use case. Does that use case exist in a civilian, densely populated context? List me instances. It's really common sense.
Since there is no legal difference between a densely populated one and a rural one that would be an exercise in futility.

Common sense would dictate that a hunter's firearm choice would be equally valid no matter where they resided
notageek wrote:
Consider a bolt action rifle. You fire a round, you pull the bolt to put a round in chamber. You have to re-aim. You cannot shoot multiple rounds per minute with such a rifle, unless you're extremely well trained.
Clearly you don't have much experience. It takes very, very little practice to have a high rate of accurate fire. Go play air soft sometime if you are too scared of a real gun range.

I'd put it at about 1 shot per 10 seconds, easy. Probably more like 5.

notageek wrote:
Consider automatic guns...
Pointless as I've already stated I have no issue with regulating such guns.

notageek wrote:
Since people fill their garages with junk, therefore gun enthusiasts should also keep buying guns and fill their garage with guns they don't need. Is that your argument?
Notice how you shift things around from "why do people buy guns if they don't use them in every day life?" to "You argue that people should fill their garages with guns?" That is why we can't have nice things.

notageek wrote:
And actually reducing guns to reduce guns is a direct one-to-one correlation. Less guns, less gun violence. How is that difficult to comprehend?
London, 2018. No guns and violence is increasing beyond the level seen in New York with guns. Real life data to your whining.

And really who cares how the violence is caused? If you ban Cuban cigars people will settle for the regular variety. If smoking doesn't decrease does that justify banning the Cubans, politics aside? No it does not.

Really, your lack of intellectual honesty is quite appalling. Anyway, thanks for playing. This is getting boring.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Also how does one explain ownership of guns that are able to fire multiple rounds per minute?
Quite easily.

The rest of your postings on the subject seem to have more strawmen than a scarecrow convention and more bull than a veal finishing feedlot, I have no interest in wasting perfectly serviceable derision on such things.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're having to resort to personal attacks, then it's a clear indication that you've lost the debate.

The Doctor wrote:
Common sense would dictate that a hunter's firearm choice would be equally valid no matter where they resided
Seems like you completely missed the point. Let's try again, very very slowly: You expect a hunter in a densely populated civilian area, to go hunting?

When I asked about a use case in the context of a civilian densely populated area, the question was about how (and more importantly why) would you use a hunter's rifle in such an area? For what purpose?

The Doctor wrote:
I'd put it at about 1 shot per 10 seconds, easy. Probably more like 5.
I seriously doubt that.

The Doctor wrote:
Pointless as I've already stated I have no issue with regulating such guns.
Great! Good for you.

The Doctor wrote:
Notice how you shift things around from "why do people buy guns if they don't use them in every day life?" to "You argue that people should fill their garages with guns?" That is why we can't have nice things.
That is the argument *you* have made. "Since people buy things just because... therefore it is okay to buy guns in the same way." Your argument, not mine.

My argument is, "just because" buying stuff may be okay when the stuff is *not* a weapon. Buy as many lawn mowers you want, nobody cares. Buying a gun, for which you do not have use for, is not okay. Random stuff in garage is not the same as random guns in the household.

The Doctor wrote:
London, 2018. No guns and violence is increasing beyond the level seen in New York with guns. Real life data to your whining.
Shouldn't you be arguing that violence rates in NY is much lower because gun ownership prevents violence? If they're the same, how does that support your "guns are for self-defense" rhetoric/propaganda?

The Doctor wrote:
And really who cares how the violence is caused? If you ban Cuban cigars people will settle for the regular variety. If smoking doesn't decrease does that justify banning the Cubans, politics aside? No it does not.
You should care, if nobody else will because of your assertion that gun ownership keeps violence down.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
I have no interest in wasting perfectly serviceable derision on such things.
I guess you can only be creative in limited number of ways.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yawn. The problem with intellectually inferior is their world is so small. Nothing fits in there but their uneducated beliefs. I'll take my Mossberg 500 Tactical now and see how many shots I can fire in one minute, just curious.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Courage of freedom loving gun enthusiasts demonstrated under stress.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“I know I’ve been called Iron Man,” Arreaza said, reading the boy’s statement. “And while I’m honored to be called this, I am not. I’m a 15-year-old who’s been shot five times, while Broward Sheriff’s deputies waited outside and decided that they weren’t going to come in the building.”
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
I guess you can only be creative in limited number of ways.
You mistake lack of interest for lack of ability. Bring more than talking points from Micheal Bloomberg and you might garner more interest.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
notageek wrote:
I guess you can only be creative in limited number of ways.
You mistake lack of interest for lack of ability. Bring more than talking points from Micheal Bloomberg and you might garner more interest.


If only there was a discernible way to know for sure.
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