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cokey
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
cokey wrote:
Armed police don't stop shootings in the US so why think that putting them in schools would work?

Curious. You have access to empirical data that I do not. Please cite this information so that I can assimilate it into my reasoning.
because there are still shootings in the US.

Is that empirical enough?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Put armed cops in lolgov schools and get rid of those stupid "gun free zones". Murderous psychopaths know where they can find a bunch of disarmed victims with no protection.


I've heard that armed maniacs don't like armed resistance (see wswartz comment above).

Won't they just go elsewhere? A park? You can't really arm everyplace.

it's a unique place, the US of A. Gun violence a problem? Solution: more guns! Well, it worked for ....
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wswartzendruber wrote:
Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the phenomena with this particular troll? Folks here just can't stop feeding him. His brain is washed alright. You cannot fix it. It has been tried for so long time and nothing worked. Don't you really have nothing better to do than trying it again and again and again? Don't you know arguing with idiots never works? They tear you down to their level and then beat with persistence.
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Old School
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gun did not cause this action.

But guess what. Like so many before him, this killer was taking psychiatric medication. Just a few examples:

Quote:
Fact: A disturbing number of perpetrators of school shootings and similar mass murders in our modern era were either on – or just recently coming off of – psychiatric medications. A few of the most high-profile examples, out of many others, include:

Columbine mass-killer Eric Harris was taking Luvox – like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor and many others, a modern and widely prescribed type of antidepressant drug called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs. Harris and fellow student Dylan Klebold went on a hellish school shooting rampage in 1999 during which they killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 24 others before turning their guns on themselves. Luvox manufacturer Solvay Pharmaceuticals concedes that during short-term controlled clinical trials, 4 percent of children and youth taking Luvox – that’s one in 25 – developed mania, a dangerous and violence-prone mental derangement characterized by extreme excitement and delusion.
Patrick Purdy went on a schoolyard shooting rampage in Stockton, California, in 1989, which became the catalyst for the original legislative frenzy to ban “semiautomatic assault weapons” in California and the nation. The 25-year-old Purdy, who murdered five children and wounded 30, had been on Amitriptyline, an antidepressant, as well as the antipsychotic drug Thorazine.
Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents in 1998 and the next day went to his school, Thurston High in Springfield, Oregon, and opened fire on his classmates, killing two and wounding 22 others. He had been prescribed both Prozac and Ritalin.
In 1988, 31-year-old Laurie Dann went on a shooting rampage in a second-grade classroom in Winnetka, Illinois, killing one child and wounding six. She had been taking the antidepressant Anafranil as well as Lithium, long used to treat mania.


Source
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just like nuclear weapons don't cause mass death.

Just like that.
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wswartzendruber wrote:
Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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Old School
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Just like nuclear weapons don't cause mass death.

Just like that.

:?:

Do you work for a pharmaceutical?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nope.

I am talking about the nuclear weapons that have been used.

Knives don't kill people either. And cars don't cause people to be transported. People do.

It's the silliest argument in the world.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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richk449
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
Quote:
Fact: A disturbing number of perpetrators of school shootings and similar mass murders in our modern era were either on – or just recently coming off of – psychiatric medications. A few of the most high-profile examples, out of many others, include:

Columbine mass-killer Eric Harris was taking Luvox – like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor and many others, a modern and widely prescribed type of antidepressant drug called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs. Harris and fellow student Dylan Klebold went on a hellish school shooting rampage in 1999 during which they killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 24 others before turning their guns on themselves. Luvox manufacturer Solvay Pharmaceuticals concedes that during short-term controlled clinical trials, 4 percent of children and youth taking Luvox – that’s one in 25 – developed mania, a dangerous and violence-prone mental derangement characterized by extreme excitement and delusion.
Patrick Purdy went on a schoolyard shooting rampage in Stockton, California, in 1989, which became the catalyst for the original legislative frenzy to ban “semiautomatic assault weapons” in California and the nation. The 25-year-old Purdy, who murdered five children and wounded 30, had been on Amitriptyline, an antidepressant, as well as the antipsychotic drug Thorazine.
Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents in 1998 and the next day went to his school, Thurston High in Springfield, Oregon, and opened fire on his classmates, killing two and wounding 22 others. He had been prescribed both Prozac and Ritalin.
In 1988, 31-year-old Laurie Dann went on a shooting rampage in a second-grade classroom in Winnetka, Illinois, killing one child and wounding six. She had been taking the antidepressant Anafranil as well as Lithium, long used to treat mania.


Source

I am interested in this argument. I wish there was more information available from reliable sources.
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richk449
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
richk449 wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I've been thinking about this, and best thing I can come up with is:
..
3. Anyone expelled from high school cannot legally purchase a rifle until the age of 21 as opposed to 18.

You are in favor of gun control?

Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Listen, I do not give a flying fuck about what a stable person chooses to spend their money on. But raving lunatics, I don't want them having any damn weapons.

Sounds reasonable.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
cokey wrote:
Armed police don't stop shootings in the US so why think that putting them in schools would work?

Curious. You have access to empirical data that I do not. Please cite this information so that I can assimilate it into my reasoning.
because there are still shootings in the US.

Is that empirical enough?


http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-european-school-shootings12-pg-photogallery.html
https://www.frontpagemag.com/point/169699/europe-has-same-rate-multiple-victim-shootings-daniel-greenfield
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/timeline-tragic-school-shootings-1642690.html
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers_(Europe)[/url]
https://www.expatica.com/be/news/country-news/Mass-shootings-in-Europe_306243.html

Your trope is tired.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
richk449 wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I've been thinking about this, and best thing I can come up with is:
..
3. Anyone expelled from high school cannot legally purchase a rifle until the age of 21 as opposed to 18.

You are in favor of gun control?

Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Listen, I do not give a flying fuck about what a stable person chooses to spend their money on. But raving lunatics, I don't want them having any damn weapons.

Sounds reasonable.


I will posit that someone who is not to be trusted with a weapon in civil society really does not deserve to roam freely within that civil society, but, well ... responsibility and all.
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richk449
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flysideways wrote:
I will posit that someone who is not to be trusted with a weapon in civil society really does not deserve to roam freely within that civil society, but, well ... responsibility and all.

Why? In other areas of life, we have graduated levels of trust - just because you have the right to walk on the sidewalk, doesn't mean you have the right to drive a car on the street. And just because you have a drivers license, doesn't mean you have the right to drive a big-rig.

Why must the default setting for guns be "full trust"?
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
pjp wrote:
But raving lunatics aren't really the concern, are they? How many have been quite clearly definable as "raving lunatics" prior to the shootings? Which makes the issue more "if you go to the doctor for help," are you too much of a risk?

No. You become too much of a risk when you have a history of violence and then broadcast to the world that you're going to be a professional school shooter.

Quote:
People who voluntarily seek mental health treatment can still buy a gun, a loophole intended to not penalize them for seeking help. Cruz was in mental health treatment until 14 months ago, when he stopped going, Broward Mayor Beam Furr said.
(source). A "loophole."

Quote:
A loner. Troubled. Depressed.

That’s how some students and police investigators describe Nikolas Cruz
(source)

The FBI knew, but "couldn't identify" the person (I call BS). The sheriff couldn't do anything because nothing had happened.

He wasn't a student, faculty or any kind of authorized worker, so shouldn't have had access. This seems like the biggest problem.

He passed the background check, I've heard in part because nothing was submitted that would deny the application. I can't find a reference to this, so maybe I misheard or has since been found inaccurate.

The background check or more restrictions don't appear to be the problem in this incident.

Also from the second link above:
Quote:
Broward County Mayor Beam Furr told CNN that Cruz had been receiving treatment at a mental health clinic for a while, but that he had not been to the clinic for more than a year.


Possibly referencing what I'd heard about the lack of reporting:
Quote:
“So many signs that the Florida shooter was mentally disturbed, even expelled from school for bad and erratic behavior. Neighbors and classmates knew he was a big problem. Must always report such instances to authorities, again and again!” Trump tweeted.

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flysideways
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
flysideways wrote:
I will posit that someone who is not to be trusted with a weapon in civil society really does not deserve to roam freely within that civil society, but, well ... responsibility and all.

Why? In other areas of life, we have graduated levels of trust - just because you have the right to walk on the sidewalk, doesn't mean you have the right to drive a car on the street. And just because you have a drivers license, doesn't mean you have the right to drive a big-rig.

Why must the default setting for guns be "full trust"?


Re-read, weapons, not guns. People that use what tools are available to inflict harm and death upon others are not appropriate to civil society. Actions that are justifiable by law may even be suspect.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
...

Schools are the only place where there are dense congregations of people and guns are strictly prohibited.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokey wrote:
Is that empirical enough?

No, it's not. It's not even close.

Here, do this:

Code:
/sbin/fsck /dev/deductive-reasoning

And come back when you possess the capacity for intelligent thought. Until then, you're a complete waste of my time.

EDIT: You're back on the ignore list for another several months. I'll re-asses at that time if you're worth responding to.
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Old School
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
nope.

I am talking about the nuclear weapons that have been used.

Knives don't kill people either. And cars don't cause people to be transported. People do.

It's the silliest argument in the world.
What I said is SSRI's are killing people. If these people taking SSRIs didn't have access to a gun, they would find some other weapon. Like a car.

Besides, this school was a gun free zone. There could not have been a gun used in this killing.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For anyone who has ever popped an E, you know that feeling of being deeply connected and empathetic to everyone you are around... that's from the flood of serotonin that is released. SSRIs inhibit serotonin... just imagine that.

Now look at the rate of SSRI use with these school shooters.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
pjp wrote:
Which makes the issue more "if you go to the doctor for help," are you too much of a risk?

More like, "If you don't have health insurance, you're screwed and left alone with your lunacy, but at least the government made it easy for you to buy a gun".
Buying health insurance isn't "hard." It's really pretty easy. Could it be easier with fewer government regulations? Possibly.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
asturm wrote:
pjp wrote:
Which makes the issue more "if you go to the doctor for help," are you too much of a risk?

More like, "If you don't have health insurance, you're screwed and left alone with your lunacy, but at least the government made it easy for you to buy a gun".
Buying health insurance isn't "hard." It's really pretty easy. Could it be easier with fewer government regulations? Possibly.

For a teenage high-school dropout? Sure. It seems the parental situation was rather grim in this case.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid#Eligibility_and_benefits

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States)#Eligibility

As I wrote, regulations may make it more difficult.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
The FBI knew, but "couldn't identify" the person (I call BS).
And.... BS confirmed. FBI admits fault.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
...

Schools are the only place where there are dense congregations of people and guns are strictly prohibited.


Is being gun free really the operative variable? What about Vegas? Sutherland Springs? San Bernadino? I don't know if the others were in gun free zones, but I suspect not.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
juniper wrote:
...

Schools are the only place where there are dense congregations of people and guns are strictly prohibited.


Is being gun free really the operative variable?

In the vast majority of cases, yes.

juniper wrote:
What about Vegas?

Superior vantage point into an open, condensed crowd combined with distance rendered any return fire useless. While his crowd was open, he was well concealed, and echoes off buildings masked his true location.

juniper wrote:
Sutherland Springs?

Immediately after this happened, I looked up Texas law on guns in churches. My research led me to believe that they were prohibited, but the AG has since clarified that they are not.

juniper wrote:
San Bernadino?

That was Jihad, a different animal altogether.

juniper wrote:
I don't know if the others were in gun free zones, but I suspect not.

Virtually all of them are.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
That was Jihad, a different animal altogether.


I don't see why that makes a difference to this conversation.

Quote:
juniper wrote:
I don't know if the others were in gun free zones, but I suspect not.

Virtually all of them are.


I meant of the three I mentioned. So you confirmed all of them were not in gun free zones. So, the deadliest shooting (Vegas) was not a gun free zone, and neither were the other two I mentioned, and they both rank quite highly on the list too.

So, if we just restricted our conversation to non-gun free zone mass shootings, you are still number one.
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