Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Police shoot unarmed person dead. Caught on body camera
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
juniper
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 763
Location: EU

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:25 pm    Post subject: Police shoot unarmed person dead. Caught on body camera Reply with quote

Holy fuck this is terrifying.

I honestly don't know what is going on with law enforcement in your country. The video, I would say, is incredible.

Oh, the police officer is now no longer a cop. But walked away a free man.
_________________
wswartzendruber wrote:
Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 686
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LAW ENFORCEMENT is an annoying term. Decades back, cops were called "peace officers".

Something I noticed in airports years ago, the Japanese writing was extremely polite while the English signs in the US were all authoritarian commands.

Guys like the murderous prick who walked free seem to share that twisted mentality, and obviously don't have the proper mindset to be in a position of "defending the peace". Training is obviously lacking, but screening seems to be the most lacking.
_________________
People Of Love

Kindness Evokes Kindness

Peace Emits Positive Energy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16832

PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched a video the other day where a cop didn't shoot a much larger person who was attacking him. I couldn't believe he didn't shoot. Eventually another officer arrived and eventually that officer shot the guy.

The bad stuff you rarely see is part of the problem.

In the above video, I was expecting something much less vague, where the guy might have been shot while prone or similar. Looked like the guy was reaching for something.

The failure here to me seemed like having him move if he was that much of a threat.
_________________
...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BonezTheGoon
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 1375
Location: Albuquerque, NM -- birthplace of Microsoft and Gentoo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guy that got shot sure didn't seem to be listening very well to instructions.
_________________
mcgruff wrote:
I can't promise to be civil.


pjp wrote:
The greater evil is voting for the "lesser evil."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16832

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, but he also seemed quite terrified. Doesn't seem like a wise decision to have him move in that condition. It also seemed premature to fire the weapon.
_________________
...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BonezTheGoon
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 1375
Location: Albuquerque, NM -- birthplace of Microsoft and Gentoo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
No, but he also seemed quite terrified. Doesn't seem like a wise decision to have him move in that condition. It also seemed premature to fire the weapon.


Yes. He did "seem" quite terrified. I agree. Sadly some people can act well enough for that to be a cover. I haven't done a lot of research in this particular shooting. Anyone care to either link an informative article or give me the "Cliff's Notes" version at least as to why the police were there and what they where responding to?

I agree that having the suspect move was odd given the situation. I would have personally preferred having him stay completely still while neutralized if there were no other perceived threats present.

That's just it though, it does seem that they suspected another threat as they continually asked about any other people in "the room".

It could have been genuine terror causing the deceased to act like a moron. That certainly does happen, and I'd say I'm likely guilty of that myself. I'm just saying that the officer in question had reason to be concerned for his own life given the erratic actions of the suspect. When he put BOTH hands where the officer could not see them I expected that was when the shots would be fired. However the officer still tried to keep the situation under control. After that when the suspect AGAIN failed to keep his movements clear/obvious to the officer I can scarcely fault the officer for fearing for his own safety.

Like I already said I'd be very interested to know what the nature of the call was that caused the officers to be on the scene as that could seriously change the "climate", if you will, of the situation.

I mean if the original call was just people yelling then it looks WAY too hostile an approach. If, however, instead there was some physical violence and a deadly weapon things are certainly different.

I do think it was good that the officer asks if the suspects are capable of understanding his directions. So in that case even if mind-altering chemicals were in play the suspects stated they could understand and comply, even though eventually he did not for reasons unknown.

It's a sad and scary thought that acting like an idiot can get you killed. I understand that. However, acting like an idiot at the top of a gorgeous natural feature (like, say, the "Crest" as they call it here in Albuquerque) where acting like an idiot can launch you a few hundred feet to your own death is not something that I feel we should all be too damned concerned with! I've done some jackass style stuff in my life and I don't whine or bitch about my broken bones or scars. Act an idiot and you get what idiots get!

Act an idiot with an officer and you may very well end up dead.

As you pointed out earlier there are MANY other videos showing just the kinds of threats that officers have to deal with. Here is a video where the officer was just trying to check out a vehicle that was on the shoulder of an interstate and was trying to find out if the driver needed assistance.

One can see just how quickly a seemingly innocent scenario can go to life threatening!
_________________
mcgruff wrote:
I can't promise to be civil.


pjp wrote:
The greater evil is voting for the "lesser evil."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaglover
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 6085
Location: Saint Amant, Acadiana

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not following orders. Typical scenario. Single mother, her word does not mean much, easy to ignore, nobody is there to kick the butt. Then school. Teacher has no authority, what can he/she do? If they touch me I'll sue. And my civil rights, indeed. After all that we have a youngster who never learned some orders need to be followed. Remember that little 6'3" 220 lbs kid who was shot dead? He said: you are too pussy to shoot me. It never occurred to him something bad may happen. So he got shot dead and US president attended his funeral. Yes, weird world we live in. The most powerful man in the world attended the funeral of a common criminal.
_________________
Please learn how to denote units correctly!

Political Correctness is all about replacing imaginary injustice with real injustice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16832

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@BonezTheGoon,

I pretty much agree. Based on the thread title, I was expecting something much more blatant.

This is the incident to which I was referring.

And then there's the matter of making sure you have all the info before deciding guilt based on a video.
_________________
...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BonezTheGoon
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 1375
Location: Albuquerque, NM -- birthplace of Microsoft and Gentoo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
This


Terrifying!
_________________
mcgruff wrote:
I can't promise to be civil.


pjp wrote:
The greater evil is voting for the "lesser evil."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Doctor
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 2361

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are bad apples in every bunch. Best you can ever do is get rid of them as you find them. However when someone reaches for their shorts that really explains why a cop might panic. Of course, if cop does panic that would be a good reason to take away his badge.

Probably about 90% of the time something like this comes up there is much more to the story. For example, the 12 year old kid that got himself shot. At first glance it looks absolutely horrifying... until the fact that he was reaching for a replica gun.

Police officers can get scared too. When that happens and they screw the results can be quite unfortunate.

Here is an incident worth remembering (but unfotunetly I don't have a link. Technical difficulties). The Guardian ran it as an example of "driving while black" and police brutality. The story goes like this, black guy is driving his brother in the family pickup. The cop pulls them over. The cop starts writing him a ticket when the brother tries to exit the vehicle because it was his first traffic stop and he didn't know what to do. The older brother throws himself across the cabin to stop him. The cop sees movement out the corner of his eye and promptly shoots the elder brother. Fortunately it is with a taser and his injuries are relatively minor. Oh, and this completely unjustified ticket given to the black guy for being black? Expired tags that actually where expired. The officer's response was definitely excessive but completely understandable. Two guys making fast moves out of the corner of his eye.

Suddenly the unjustifiable looks quite reasonable.
_________________
First things first, but not necessarily in that order.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1605
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cop probably played too much FPS as a kid and spent four years in Afghanistan

Dude reached for rear waistband. No better way to get cop-shot. #Darwin

Also, where's the blame for the idiot when called cops saying these people were aiming a rifle out the hotel window? That's who should be going down for this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
juniper
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 763
Location: EU

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BonezTheGoon wrote:
The guy that got shot sure didn't seem to be listening very well to instructions.


That's not what I saw.

The instructions were way too complicated for a guy who was clearly shitting his pants. You can hear him crying. Just before being shot the suspect was told to 1) keep his hands in the air then 2) crawl. I interpret crawl to mean crawl on all fours, whereas what the cop wanted the suspect to do was walk on his knees. If the cop wanted to be clear, he should have said, "While keeping your hands in the air, walk on your knees towards me." In any case, it's obviously a problem that a slight misinterpretation (crawl vs walk on knees) shouldn't lead to death.

But, he also said he had to do this while keep his feet crossed. I don't think I could do that.

The trouble is that the cop seemed to raise the temperature of the situation when it wasn't needed. The article I think hits it bang on. the instructions were overly complicated, given in a angry heated tone, to someone who was, at the end, obviously having trouble following the instructions because he was scared witless (literally).

It's strange because even the way the encounter began, there was already good indications that these people were walking casually.

Fucked up. That's how your police kill 1000 people a year.
_________________
wswartzendruber wrote:
Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
juniper
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 763
Location: EU

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
There are bad apples in every bunch. Best you can ever do is get rid of them as you find them. However when someone reaches for their shorts that really explains why a cop might panic. Of course, if cop does panic that would be a good reason to take away his badge.


it's not just "a few bad apples". There is a huge problem with cops shooting people in the US. And, of course, guns are a huge problem. Why was the cop that scared of a guy who was audibly crying? he might have a gun.

It's a pretty sorry state of affairs if cops can shoot unarmed people on their knees crying and asking not to be shot.
_________________
wswartzendruber wrote:
Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16832

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd agree with you 100% except for the actions taken just prior to being shot. What was he reaching for / doing? It was not at all apparent that he was unarmed as no one had checked him for weapons. He did not have a weapon in his hands, but MAY have been reaching for one. That does in fact happen.
_________________
...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Doctor
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 2361

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
it's not just "a few bad apples". There is a huge problem with cops shooting people in the US.
No it isn't. Almost inevitably whenever a cop does anything to a black person Black Lies Matter make it sound like a cold blooded killing. When you actually look at the facts that version of events is rarely supported.

For example, Michael Brown. They say he was shot in the back. Forensics prove he was shot at close range from the front while pummeling the officer. 100% justified self defense.

Or Sandra Bland. They say she was driving while black. The facts are she was pulled over for doing 70 in a 35. She was arrested for failing to appear in court on a valid arrest warrant. She hanged herself with no intervention by any officers. The officers did exactly what they where supposed to and removed a dangerous person from the roads. What she did after that is on her.

Then there is Tamir Rice. They say he was shot for being black. The fact is he was playing with a toy gun illegally modified to appear identical to a real one. When police arrived he responded by reaching for his gun. 100% correct action by the officers to stop him before he had a chance to kill them or any bystanders. Everyone with basic gun literacy knows a gun is real and loaded until proven otherwise.

List goes on. Basically every BLM claim to a dirty cop does not stand up. BLM even whines when a black woman starts shooting at police and using her small child as a human shield. For 8 hours before SWAT finally ends the stand off. BLM is political BS machine, not an accurate picture of cops in the USA.
_________________
First things first, but not necessarily in that order.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BonezTheGoon
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 1375
Location: Albuquerque, NM -- birthplace of Microsoft and Gentoo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
. . . Black Lies Matter . . .


I can't tell for sure if that was unintentional. Freudian slip?
_________________
mcgruff wrote:
I can't promise to be civil.


pjp wrote:
The greater evil is voting for the "lesser evil."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
juniper
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 763
Location: EU

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
No it isn't. Almost inevitably whenever a cop does anything to a black person Black Lies Matter make it sound like a cold blooded killing. When you actually look at the facts that version of events is rarely supported


Strawman. Who's talking about black lives matter or police shooting black people? I am not. In fact, this particular post is about a white guy getting shot.

If you don't think it's a problem that US police kill over 1000 people a year, well then that's fine. It's definitely out of step with pretty much every other developed nation, including Canada, which is similar to the US in many ways.

If I had to guess, more people were killed by USian police in the last year, than people killed by police since 1900 in the UK.

But what's doubly disturbing is how this particular person got shot. Unarmed, clearly scared, by some cop shouting out ambiguous instructions.

pjp wrote:
I'd agree with you 100% except for the actions taken just prior to being shot. What was he reaching for / doing? It was not at all apparent that he was unarmed as no one had checked him for weapons.


The article interprets his hand movements as reaching to pull up his pants. Of course, there is no way for the officer to know that, so he gets that benefit of the doubt. What's clear is that they guy is shit scared. And gets increasingly scared to the point of crying.

I just want to take a step back from the scene, because it should be really scary. As far as we know, there is no connection between this guy and any crime.

Yet he's dead.

Doesn't that bother people?
_________________
wswartzendruber wrote:
Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
richk449
Guru
Guru


Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 345

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
I just want to take a step back from the scene, because it should be really scary. As far as we know, there is no connection between this guy and any crime.

Yet he's dead.

Doesn't that bother people?

No.

He reached his arm behind his back, therefore his death doesn't bother me at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wswartzendruber
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 1243
Location: ID, USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think that in order to fire on someone, that a weapon should first be positively identified.
_________________
Gun: Glock 19 Gen 4
Sights: XS DXT Big Dot
Holster: Alien Gear ShapeShift IWB
Ammunition: Federal Premium HST 124gr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16832

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
pjp wrote:
I'd agree with you 100% except for the actions taken just prior to being shot. What was he reaching for / doing? It was not at all apparent that he was unarmed as no one had checked him for weapons.


The article interprets his hand movements as reaching to pull up his pants. Of course, there is no way for the officer to know that, so he gets that benefit of the doubt. What's clear is that they guy is shit scared. And gets increasingly scared to the point of crying.

I just want to take a step back from the scene, because it should be really scary. As far as we know, there is no connection between this guy and any crime.

Yet he's dead.

Doesn't that bother people?
Your thread positioned itself as attacking police in general and the specific officer involved. That posturing made the death a secondary issue. Based on the video alone, I don't see any evidence suggesting the officer shouldn't have "walked away a free man."

Yes, it is bad that someone died when it could have been avoided. I've already described my non-expert concerns about the events which transpired, so I don't think I need to say more about that. But I will reiterate as I have mentioned many times, there needs to be more training, better training, or both.


wswartzendruber wrote:
I would think that in order to fire on someone, that a weapon should first be positively identified.
In a perfect world, you are 100% correct. Panic creates a severely imperfect world that exists in fractions of a second. Which is why I've long commented on training.
_________________
...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Doctor
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 2361

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
No it isn't. Almost inevitably whenever a cop does anything to a black person Black Lies Matter make it sound like a cold blooded killing. When you actually look at the facts that version of events is rarely supported


Strawman. Who's talking about black lives matter or police shooting black people? I am not. In fact, this particular post is about a white guy getting shot.
No it isn't. You are talking about the perception of police being out of control and shooting everyone in sight. BLM is responsible for that propaganda.
juniper wrote:
If you don't think it's a problem that US police kill over 1000 people a year, well then that's fine. It's definitely out of step with pretty much every other developed nation, including Canada, which is similar to the US in many ways.
Apples to oranges, unfortunately. Take it case by case and if you can't find a pattern it doesn't exist. The US has problems that Canada or the UK does not. Liberals running around insisting that prison sentences are too harsh doesn't help either.
juniper wrote:
If I had to guess, more people were killed by USian police in the last year, than people killed by police since 1900 in the UK.
That is, as you say, a guess. But what isn't a guess is to compare the number of acid attacks and Muslim gangs raping underage girls in the UK to the United States. You have that problem, we don't.

juniper wrote:
But what's doubly disturbing is how this particular person got shot. Unarmed, clearly scared, by some cop shouting out ambiguous instructions.
Yes, which is why he is no longer a cop! He was clearly unfit for the job. The fact that the guy he shot was reaching for his pants clearly gives him an excusable reason to think he was going for a weapon. That is why he isn't in prison.

juniper wrote:
I just want to take a step back from the scene, because it should be really scary. As far as we know, there is no connection between this guy and any crime.

Yet he's dead.

Doesn't that bother people?
Of course it does. But one bad apple does not speak for the bunch.
_________________
First things first, but not necessarily in that order.


Last edited by The Doctor on Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Doctor
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 2361

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
I would think that in order to fire on someone, that a weapon should first be positively identified.
The problem is to positively identify a weapon that means shots are fired. The body count would go way up and include far more innocents dead as well as police officers.
_________________
First things first, but not necessarily in that order.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
patrix_neo
Guru
Guru


Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 436
Location: The Maldives

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wants to air my op. on this. That police officer should be on a desktop job.
Out in the field with a potential armed POI, doing what he did, is not exactly a gold star performance.
Whom ever put him there should be shot
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16832

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I would think that in order to fire on someone, that a weapon should first be positively identified.
The problem is to positively identify a weapon that means shots are fired. The body count would go way up and include far more innocents dead as well as police officers.
And that's where the decisions made in fractions of a second while under severe stress cannot adn should not be so easily dismissed.

Watching a video is obviously a different perspective than what the officer was actually seeing. But it appeared that the guy was reaching for something. Maybe it was to pull up his pants -- seriously? Ok, he's panicking -- and after having watched that section multiple times, it does appear that the officer could have waited to see what the suspect did next. Even if the suspect was reaching for a weapon, his hand didn't appear to actually make contact with anything. Maybe if the officer waited just slightly longer the suspect wouldn't have been shot or what he was doing would have become more clear.

Evaluating that in milliseconds is a different matter.

Deescalate. Deescalate. Deescalate. And keep it simple.
_________________
...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
o'bogamol
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 90
Location: Detroit, Michigan - The Home of Rock and Roll

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
I just wants to air my op. on this. That police officer should be on a desktop job.
Out in the field with a potential armed POI, doing what he did, is not exactly a gold star performance.
Whom ever put him there should be shot


Training video for pjp.
_________________
"History began on July 4,1776. Everything before that was a mistake." -Ron Swanson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum