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krinn
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Other that it being a Roman Numeral, none comes to mind.

Also mean V for victory (well, "victoire" which is victory in French), because easy made with fingers, resistance use it, but i'm unsure if it came from that, De Gaulle did too, see last phrase)

did i win most off topic answer? :)
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn,

The V for victory came from the Battle of Agincourt where the French came second.
Quote:
... that the French had boasted that they would cut off two fingers from the right hand of every archer ...

The V is supposed to be derived from the English archers showing off their bowstring fingers.
That's English history anyway :)

Back to topic.
After rebooting on 5 cores, the system ran all day yesterday.
This morning, its back on 6 cores.
5 cores or 6 cores make a difference to the 12v PSU load. I'm not sure if the PSU has a split 12v supply or not.
The reduced 12v load may be a pointer.

After the next incident, I'll go back to the old graphics card.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
The V for victory came from the Battle of Agincourt where the French came second.
Quote:
... that the French had boasted that they would cut off two fingers from the right hand of every archer ...

The V is supposed to be derived from the English archers showing off their bowstring fingers.
That's English history anyway :)


I had heard long ago that Churchill used it because the English use the two finger salute while the Americans use the middle finger salute.
Works for the English archers at Agincourt also.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
The V is supposed to be derived from the English archers showing off their bowstring fingers.
That's English history anyway :)

Funny because they were archers of King Henry V and the logical choice that came to my mind is showing their allegiance to King V rather than their bowstring fingers
We more came last than second :D
And you wonder why we have cut those stupid idiots King's head?

Tony0945: look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#Victory_sign
Sad it derail the subject so bad, because it's interesting point where the V sign came from.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
And you wonder why we have cut those stupid idiots King's head?

I'd like to cut off a stupid idiot President's head. (Sorry I lapsed into politics)
Quote:

Tony0945: look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#Victory_sign

So tha'ts why those few bars from the Fifth keep being played in the movie "The Longest Day"!
Quote:

Sad it derail the subject so bad, because it's interesting point where the V sign came from.

Yes, such an interesting conversation, but you are right, mon ami.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn,

I was trying to avoid an international incident :)

Back to topic.

The symptom recurred, so I'm back to the
Code:
NVIDIA Corporation G92 [GeForce 9800 GT] (rev a2)

The BIOS CPU Fan warning has gone away. I suspect that its linked with the BIOS cool'n'quiet.
It may not understand a fanless Graphics card and probably uses the same string everywhere.
I'll boot with the GPU fan stalled and see what happens.

While I was in the case, I rearranged the dust so I could read the PSU label.
Its a Corsair CMPSU-850TX
5V 30 A
3V3 30A
12V 70A
-12V 0.8A
5V Stby 3A

Note the use of uppercase V to denote Volts :)
No split 12V supply.

The CPU is about 120W. That's 10A from the +12V
Four HDD spin motors' about 1.2A each .,. 5A
Say another 120W for the old graphics card 10A. It has a separate +12V connector.
That's about 25A total, when the old graphics card is working hard.

With the new card, the total 12V load is less but its distributed differently.

Being lazy, I've been using the dual link DVI cable with both cards.
Maybe moving to display port with the new card may help ?
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
While I was in the case, I rearranged the dust so I could read the PSU label.

That may be your problem. I would blow out the PSU, the CPU cooler, the graphics card and the motherboard generally.

I use a 5 gallon compressor that's in my garage for car tires. I lower the pressure to 20 psi (have no idea what that is in metric), it's usually set at 40 for the tires (or tyres :-))
I have to hold the nozzle quite close to the CPU cooler to get all the dust out of the fins. Dust in the PSU can cause lots of trouble and so can old capacitors. But as you are a fellow engineer, I needn't tell you that.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945,

I clean the dust off when the CPU gets to 60C under load.
I use a stiff natural bristle brush, so I don't run the risk of static damage due to dry air becoming charged.
Air out of a compressor is dried as a side effect of being compressed.

20 psi is about 1.3 bar but I still check my tyres is psi :)

The PSU may be overdue a clean but with the total load down, I don't see it as a dust or thermal issue.
Its also very difficult to remove without taking everything out of the case.

The 12V connector for the CPU regularly gets charred. I have to keep cleaning that.
Four pins (total) for the Vcore is not enough.

I'll try wiping the contacts on the main motherboard power connector. It wall be carrying more 12v current that it used to.
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P.Kosunen
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Its a Corsair CMPSU-850TX

http://www.corsair.com/en-eu/tx850w
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/20793-corsair-tx850-850w-power-supply-review-7.html

Quote:
High quality Japanese capacitors provide uncompromised performance and reliability.


This model should be still good.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen warnings about using a compressor, thus have lowered the pressure. I don't like the canned air because it leaves a greasy residue. The brush sounds good but doesn't it raise a static risk also?

Your PSU is apparently made by ChannellWell rather than Seasonic http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/psu_manufacturers
I'm not familiar with them but apparently they made the Antec Smartpower 2.0 which was not bad but not terribly efficient at low power levels.
Last year I replaced mine with an Antec EDGE made by Seasonic. I now have one Seasonic PSU, two Antec branded Seasonic's and one Antec branded Delta.

I don't like the charred connector. I have never had that even though I run my 125W Phenom II 24 hours a day (Seasonic S12II 430B). The PSU is rated at 17A http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/seasonic-s12ii-bronze-430-w-power-supply-review/6/
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1clue
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you're cleaning out your machine you should leave it plugged in but powered off. That leaves the ground in place, which protects your electronics.

Any time you have air moving across anything it generates a bit of static electricity. The vacuum, the brush, whatever all have some risk of that.

AFAIK the biggest problem with a compressor is that the air coming out of it is not just air. It also has water droplets, dirt, oil and whatever else got sucked into the inlet. Including small bits of metal.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945,

Natural bristle is not a very good insulator, unlike say, nylon bristles.
While the brushing action will raise static, its conducted away again too.

The charred connector is a feature. This motherboard was probably not designed for a six core Phenom II.
The BIOS it was shipped with certainly wasn't. I had to do a BIOS update before it would boot the six core CPU.
It looks like the CPU power connector does not have enough pins for a six core Phenom II working hard, so the connector overheats.
Its a feature I'm aware of and manage.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which mobo? Mine is Gigabyte GA-880GA-UD3H. CPU is AMD Phenom II X6 1090T
It has onbard Radeon graphics but the Windows Catalyst drivers were so bad that I disabled it and installed an EVGA GeForce 8400GS
I don't think it has a fan. Right now it's at 121F (50 C).
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945,

dmidecode:
Base Board Information
   Manufacturer: ASUSTeK Computer INC.
   Product Name: M4A78T-E
   Version: Rev 1.xx


This board also has an onboard Radeon. It wasn't a good GPU when it was new and its been disabled since then.

The old GPU, now fitted, says
sensors:
nouveau-pci-0100
Adapter: PCI adapter
GPU core:     +1.05 V  (min =  +0.95 V, max =  +1.10 V)
fan1:        1494 RPM
temp1:        +54.0°C  (high = +95.0°C, hyst =  +3.0°C)
                       (crit = +95.0°C, hyst =  +5.0°C)
                       (emerg = +135.0°C, hyst =  +5.0°C)

Its not working hard either.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a wee while back on the old nVdia card, I've refitted the RX 460
The CPU Fan Error went away when the nVdia card was reinstalled.
Its stayed away with the RX 460 refitted. ... well, its only one boot so far.

I'm still using the Dual Link DVI port, I'll need to rake about for for display port cables.

-- edit --

Rebooted to give the motherboard power connectors a good 'graunch' in an attempt to reduce the contact resistance.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might be motherboard RAM ..

Its failed 3 times today. On 5 core, 6 cores and while doing a world update.
Always on the display port connector.

I was about to try the new AMD code in kernel-4.15 but I get segfaults trying to build it
However, each invocation of make builds a bit more.

I've kicked off memtest86+ its half way through the first pass.

-- edit --
memtest86+ the first pass, so I've stopped it

I still get
Code:
/bin/sh: line 1: 29635 Segmentation fault      ./tools/objtool/objtool orc generate --no-fp "arch/x86/kernel/x86_init.o"
with varying file names, even after rebuilding objtool.
However, its building on my mediaserver ...
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neddy, time for a new mobo https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Gigabyte-Technology-GA-880GA-UD3H-Rev-2-2-AM3-AMD-Motherboard-1/112660553884?epid=129638825&hash=item1a3b17a09c:g:f3YAAOSwbF1aHNqy

Or perhaps a full upgrade. I think these are new enough to be free of the segfault bug. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113434&cm_re=ryzen_1600-_-19-113-434-_-Product plus mobo plus new memory.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in a position to volunteer as test subject for that: I have a GA-MA770-UD3, and I've got a RX550 coming early next week. These Gigabyte boards (the -UD3 ones) are advertised as having thicker traces for power so maybe that'll make some difference.

The card specs say it pulls max 50W through the motherboard - my current one is a 6450 which is something weak like 25W. Either way I'm expecting a decent light show, whether it's on screen or on the mobo.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945,

I'm planning a full upgrade. I got the video card early as I though I might get a 4k display too :)
However my existing 9 year old video card won't drive 4k and I'm not one to keep a Ferrari just to drive to the corner shop.
Amazon had a good deal on this one and I wanted fanless ...

My motherboard is PCIe 2.0, maybe 2.1. The card is PCI 3.0, so it can get a lot more data down each lane.
Hmm ... Its in 8 lane mode now. I can set it in the BIOS. Maybe the timing balances on each lane are not what they need to be.
Heh a single lane Graphics card :)

Look at the newegg prices and change the $ to £. Buying from a US site costs me import duty and VAT. That adds abut 40% to the cost.
In some cases, its lower cost to fly to the USA, do your shopping, some sight seeing and put the stuff in your hold baggage.

Ant P.

I look forward to hearing about your light show.

-- edit --

Choosing the stackframe unwinder avoids the segfaults on the Phenom.
Its running on 4.15.0-rc1, with the new AMD kernel code and a single PCIe lane just now.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Look at the newegg prices and change the $ to £. Buying from a US site costs me import duty and VAT. That adds abut 40% to the cost.
In some cases, its lower cost to fly to the USA, do your shopping, some sight seeing and put the stuff in your hold baggage.
That was just for an example. I would assume there is a european source similar, amazon.uk? That sucks about the duty. Taxes are taxes. Some years ago I bought a DVD from amazon.uk (The Tripods: The White Mountains) that was not available in the US. I don't think they were supposed to sell it me because of copyright but they did. No duty, just shipping. Not even Illinois "use tax". Years later I joined a class action lawsuit (the usual postcard offer) about the exchange rate and got the default settlement that cut the price way down. Go figure. I don't mind artists getting compensated for their work. I think that's fine. But copyright has become a way for mega-corporations to restrain trade and that's wrong. There was a bookshop in Toronto that I visited in the mid-80's. For 15 years after, I bought British editions of books there that weren't available in the US. I used my credit card by phone and then internet and they mailed me the books.

The used board from ebay hopefully wouldn't have VAT tax. I suppose Brexit will just make it worse.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After two days of kernel-4.15.0-rc1 using the hew AMD driver that appears there and operation on a single PCIe lane, I've put the BIOS back to auto to detect the PCIe lane count.

I really know better than to change several parameters at the same time but a series of controlled experiments to do a binary search works too.

If this locks up, I'll put it down to PCIe lane trace length and impedance matching on a 9 year old motherboard and live with it until after Christmas, then get a new system in the January sales.

At least I can put it back to single PCIe lane operation.
There is also another slot I can try on the motherboard but that means gutting the system to rearrange all the plug in cards.

Single PCIe lane operation seems to work for my graphics workload.
Maybe a collection of 16 lane graphics cards all working on the same frame is overrated :)
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
If this locks up, I'll put it down to PCIe lane trace length and impedance matching on a 9 year old motherboard and live with it until after Christmas, then get a new system in the January sales.


Neddy, what CPU do you favor for your new system?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945,

Ryzen, or dual Ryzen in the same package :)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@NeddySeagon,
have you tried to update BIOS? Sorry if you did, tried to read the whole thread but didn't catch if you did so..

If getting segfaults randomly, I would also try swapping memories.. And wouldn't risk doing a live update on the BIOS..
Rather take out a programmer like ch341a wich is cheap and supports most desktop BIOS chips
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZeuZ_NG,

I have the latest BIOS. Its old but there is noting to update it to.
mtest86+ passes.

I think the segfaults are not related to the graphics problem because if I change a kernel option the kernel builds without any segfaults.
Its a new option in 4.15.0 too, so maybe it has a bug.

I'll test a while longer with 4.15.0-rc1 and in a week or two, try another -rc. I don't want any more variables that I can help.
That makes the problem space bigger.
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