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Zucca
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tholin wrote:
it's a opportunity to investigate what can be done to improve the distribution.
True. I think topics that aid to solve and avoid conflict/blocker -problems should be given more visibility (in wiki/handbook). What I've seen it that these kind of problems seem to be the most common ones. Also it is needed to emphasize how important it is to read the news.

It is not healthy to just run certain commands in succession and call it a day when updating your system.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tholin wrote:
1clue wrote:
I just don't get the point of writing a "dear John" letter to a Linux forum.

Based on how much activity there is on this forum compared to the heydays of gentoo there must have been a big exodus of users. Most users never bother to explain why they move away so when there is an explanation it's a opportunity to investigate what can be done to improve the distribution.

No what 1clue is saying is that:
Why do you complain to us? What let you think us, the users in a forum, could fix anything of what you said?

So any "i'm leaving gentoo" thread are as good as writing a letter to your doctor and complaining about how your garage mechanic guy is awful and sucks ; with the big emphasis that your doctor should really care because if he don't do anything (something he cannot help you with) "you will find another garage !".
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
vokiel wrote:
What would the point of running Gentoo if we're not running mixed stable/testing systems exactly?
While Gentoo is pretty capable of doing this, there should be (imo) a note/warning in the Handbook that mixing stable and unstable will eventually resort in blockers that need manual intervention.
I run amd64 on my server and have had exactly zero problems with blockers. On my ~amd64 desktop I've had some. Maybe because a huge set of use -flags in make.conf and several added overlays... One could say I've been asking for conflicts. ;)

At least in my case -- and I suspect in the case of many other users of the so-called Stable branch as well -- it is simply impossible to have a pure (or almost pure) Stable installation, however much one would like to do that. Several of the packages I need to use either do not have a Stable version or the Stable version lacks functionality I want/need. Sometimes I have to use an Unstable package from a third-party overlay or in my local overlay. Sometimes I have to use a package that does not have a Stable version at all. And I can think of several occasions when a so-called Stable package has had a bug in it and I had no choice but to install a later, Unstable, version because I was not in a position to wait for someone to fix the package (either source code or ebuild) and release a new Stable version.
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Spargeltarzan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:

No what 1clue is saying is that:
Why do you complain to us? What let you think us, the users in a forum, could fix anything of what you said?

So any "i'm leaving gentoo" thread are as good as writing a letter to your doctor and complaining about how your garage mechanic guy is awful and sucks ; with the big emphasis that your doctor should really care because if he don't do anything (something he cannot help you with) "you will find another garage !".


Gentoo developers usually will also have an account in this forum. At least they should read it. This is the platform to talk about Gentoo. We do not have another place to talk, and in my opinion, developers should be active here too. And you see they are, and you see also according to asturm's post how ignorantly blind they are and how less they care.

tholin wrote:

Developers don't seem to care about this and are happy to blame the users for any problem (see asturm's post above). Because of the endless stream of blockers and other problems there will eventually not be any users left, just developers who can deal with problems themselves.


Yes, there will be a time when only (some) developers and NeddySeagoon are left.

In all these days we have got no positive statement and no plans how they plan to improve this situation. Because there are no plans. And actually also enthusiasts as NeddySeagoon stated that testing is all to users and we should compile in a test system and deploy when things are not broken. Yes - he meant an enterprise environment, but when someone relies on his desktop or notebook, it will be true too. Okay okay, let's imagine I have got a second notebook to test updates - I still will have to troubleshoot the negligences of the developers.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spargeltarzan,

You don't need a second system or even a second install, except in a production environment.
I currently run ~x86, ~amd64 ~arm64 and util a few years ago, ~arm and ~sparc.

Testing is mostly solid. Its a lot better than it was in the days of testing being the development playground.
The development playground has mostly moved to overlays and testing stuff is now almost tree ready.

The following rules will always apply to Gentoo updates, stable or testing.
Don't do it when you are in a hurry.
Do keep binary packages, so you can downgrade the odd broken package quickly.

Don't mix stable and testing. That's hard blockers waiting to happen.
Likewise, take great care with overlays.

Gentoos problem, as well as its strength is that every Gentoo install is unique.
When you design your own distro using Gentoo, you need to take good care of it too.
You really might be the only one with a system like yours.
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1clue
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't thought there would be so many interpretations of what I said.

My comments aren't specifically about Gentoo. Every distro I've ever used since the mid 90s has had a mailing list or forum. There's always somebody who writes a dear john letter. It's all drama, hoping for somebody to be heartbroken and beg them to stay.

If this thread were actually about wanting help, its subject shouldn't contain any variant of "I'm leaving Gentoo." It should be some variant of "Portage broken, can't get rid of blockers, system maintenance time untenable." Inside of that, it's feasible that the OP may give up, thank everyone for their time and then sign off for good.

Ever since around 1998 or so, I've maintained multiple Linux boxes for home and work. Ever since around 2002 or so, the collection of boxes I maintain has had multiple distributions on them. When installing a box or a vm, I evaluate the needs of the system and decide which distro to use. Sometimes it's Ubuntu Server, sometimes it's Gentoo, sometimes it's something else. RHEL, CentOS, Suse, Arch, Debian or one of the clones pretty much covers most of them.

I see value in knowing about and using several distributions. It helps me understand what Linux is about, what FOSS is about, and how non-free software interacts with FOSS.

I appreciate that those maintaining a distro may want to know why people leave, and if the situation is still tenable maybe fix the problem for the remaining users. I get that. What I don't get is why somebody picks such an unrelated subject and expects anyone to care. This sort of subject automatically makes me not care, to the point that I ask the sort of questions I asked, to find out why somebody else cares.
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Spargeltarzan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the topic of this thread has changed very quickly to "Portage broken, can't get rid of blockers, system maintenance time untenable" and it is not about one user who left Gentoo. This user posted exactly once that he is on Ubuntu now and absolutely does not ask somebody to be heardbroken... it's all the other users who are on Gentoo, who are willing to stay and who speak about Portage!

Please don't ask us to open a second thread...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
So any "i'm leaving gentoo" thread are as good as writing a letter to your doctor and complaining about how your garage mechanic guy is awful and sucks ; with the big emphasis that your doctor should really care because if he don't do anything (something he cannot help you with) "you will find another garage !".

I don't think that is a good analogy, because doctors and garage mechanics are in completely different fields, whereas the OP is a Gentoo Linux user and he is addressing Gentoo Linux users (which includes Gentoo developers, since some developers read the posts in these forums even if they don't all post in them). Perhaps a more appropriate analogy would be a doctor who is addressing fellow doctors about the surgical tools in the operating theatre of his hospital.

What would be the OP's alternative to posting his grievance (whether or not it is justified) in these forums? To simply stop using Gentoo Linux and install a different distribution without telling anyone? In which case, how would Gentoo Linux users, developers and council members* (those three are not mutually exclusive) have any inkling that a wider problem may be developing and that the user base is dwindling due to dissatisfaction (whether or not justified)? Without any feedback at all, it would be a case of "Will the last person to leave the room please switch off the lights."

*From some past posts in these forums I get the impression Gentoo Linux is an anarchic commune. Or, to put it another way, a headless chicken. ;-)

[By the way, in my opinion merging world once a month is still too infrequent. I personally try to merge world roughly once a week. Sometimes I wait longer than that because it is too risky to change anything while I am away from home on a work trip lasting several weeks. If I merge world more regularly, there are fewer (or no) problems. It is obviously easier to deal with one or two problems than a plethora of problems that has built up over time. Gaps of several months between upgrading is asking for trouble when using a rolling distribution.]
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get this mentality people keep coming here with, of “I ignored the manual and neglected my system to the point it'd be faster to do a new install than repair it, but I can't reinstall the distro now that I'm so set on blaming it for my mistakes - time to install another one out of spite”.

You'll have much worse problems if you try to apply the Windows-owner mindset to something like Debian or Ubuntu; neglect it for a year and one day you'll find yourself with a half-configured systemd or your formerly working desktop has been replaced by GNOME.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
You'll have much worse problems if you try to apply the Windows-owner mindset to something like Debian or Ubuntu; neglect it for a year and one day you'll find yourself with a half-configured systemd or your formerly working desktop has been replaced by GNOME.

Windows 10 wants to upgrade itself all the time! Automatically. ;-)
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
I don't get this mentality people keep coming here with, of “I ignored the manual and neglected my system to the point it'd be faster to do a new install than repair it, but I can't reinstall the distro now that I'm so set on blaming it for my mistakes - time to install another one out of spite”.


I believe we do not want to repeat again, that here, we speak as stable amd64 users, who maintain their systems, install unstable packages only if absolutely necessary (due to bugs in stable release version, requested features in unstable, or simply the fact that for many packages no stable version exists - but these are all only a few number of unstable packages all in all)

... and we still suffer from this wine breakage, gst-plugin breakage, etc. Give me one good reason, why the wine split now leaded to the fact we had to uninstall winetricks. Problems like this shouldn't even exist in ~amd64, because if the developer runs a test only a single time, he will realise, that other packages depend on wine and this should be resolved! And this issue even goes to stable amd64! This is 100% the fault of the developer. We as users can do absolutely nothing against it.
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spargeltarzan wrote:
install unstable packages only if absolutely necessary
Allowing some ~packages on amd64 is safe. My rule is that if the ~package pulls any other ~package then don't install it. Exception are of course if the other ~package (that is being pulled as depency) is really just a part of the ~package being installed. For example openshot requires libopenshot. It's not gonna hurt to then allow libopenshot too. And when accepting ~packages on stable system, I always accept only the single version so that it doesn't update any further without my allowance.

Anyway the winetricks... There really weren't any news or emerge didn't tell anything about it?
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ian.au
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spargeltarzan wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
I don't get this mentality people keep coming here with, of “I ignored the manual and neglected my system to the point it'd be faster to do a new install than repair it, but I can't reinstall the distro now that I'm so set on blaming it for my mistakes - time to install another one out of spite”.


I believe we do not want to repeat again, that here, we speak as stable amd64 users, who maintain their systems, install unstable packages only if absolutely necessary (due to bugs in stable release version, requested features in unstable, or simply the fact that for many packages no stable version exists - but these are all only a few number of unstable packages all in all) <snip>


So many complaints about blockers, yet I rarely see a hard block on any of my mixed-branch systems. I try to keep ~ packages to a minimum, at present on this machine:
Code:
lw3 # eix -c --installed-unstable
[I] app-emulation/virtualbox (5.1.30@21/11/17): Family of powerful x86 virtualization products for enterprise and home use
[I] app-emulation/virtualbox-extpack-oracle (5.1.30.118389@21/11/17): PUEL extensions for VirtualBox
[I] app-emulation/virtualbox-modules (5.1.30@28/11/17): Kernel Modules for Virtualbox
[I] app-office/libreoffice (5.4.3.2@21/11/17): A full office productivity suite
[I] app-office/libreoffice-l10n (5.4.3.2@15/11/17): Translations for the Libreoffice suite
[I] app-portage/logclean [2] (14.2.0@03/06/17): Keep only (compressed) logs of installed packages and cleanup emerge.log
[I] app-text/diffpdf (2.1.3@21/11/17): Program that textually or visually compares two PDF files
[I] app-text/libstaroffice (0.0.5@21/11/17): Import filter for old StarOffice documents
[I] app-text/yagf (0.9.5@21/11/17): Graphical front-end for cuneiform and tesseract OCR tools
[I] dev-perl/Modern-Perl (1.201.701.170@22/04/17): enable all of the features of Modern Perl with one import
[I] dev-util/mdds (1.3.1(1)@15/11/17): A collection of multi-dimensional data structure and indexing algorithm
[I] gnome-extra/chrome-gnome-shell (9@29/05/17): GNOME Shell integration for Chrome/Chromium, Firefox, Vivaldi, Opera browsers
[I] net-im/skypeforlinux (5.5.0.1@10/10/17): Instant messaging client, with support for audio and video
[I] net-libs/libeXosip (4.0.0@18/06/16): library to use the SIP protocol for multimedia session establishement
[I] net-voip/linphone (3.6.1@18/06/16): Video softphone based on the SIP protocol
[I] www-client/google-chrome-beta (63.0.3239.59@23/11/17): The web browser from Google
[1] "zugaina" /var/lib/layman/zugaina
[2] "mv" /var/lib/layman/mv


My world updates are completely smooth 99% of the time, and don't require my intervention. When they do throw a block that portage can't resolve, (or portage starts screaming that it wants a bunch of files added to ~ ) it is almost always an entry in ../package.accept_keywords that is at the root of the problem. I do avoid Nvidia on Gentoo systems, and find that has reduced my admin time considerably.

As each gentoo box is essentially completely customised, it is up to the builder of the system to document their personalised installation and administrative tasks. If one just wants a vanilla desktop computer, a binary distro makes much more sense.

I don't think it is a case of Gentoo 'being only for power users' as was stated further up this thread - it's more a matter of knowing if you need Gentoo or not for a particular purpose on a machine. I couldn't live without it, but I have other distros running on machines where Gentoo is unjustified. At present Debian on some desktops and dual-booting Galliumos / Chromeos on a couple of chromebooks (where I haven't had time to get a happily working kernel under gentoo, but really Gentoo is not required on a chromebook ;)).

So with Gentoo you get unparalleled flexibility, with a cost of effort in system administration both in setup and maintenance. With a decent binary distro you'll get something that justWorks 99% of the time and the updates are rolled out for you by others. Whenever I've to install something that is unsupported into a binary distro, I'm reminded of how relatively simple and powerful Gentoo is, but it is not for systems that one wants to 'install and rarely update'. I update Gentoo systems weekly when possible, and rarely let a system go more than a fortnight without update. Unmaintained systems will break, I don't know what the Dev's here can do to help with that.
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1clue
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW I get complications on updates about as often on Ubuntu as I do on Gentoo. Gentoo definitely takes more time to administer but you knew that going in. Complications take about the same time on any distro I currently use.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most people have problems because they don't update often. It's hard to say how frequent is enough, but I update daily, and I rarely have any issues at all.

The second most common cause is using unstable packages and not knowing how to deal with the breakage when it happens. I realize one of the main benefits of running a rolling-source-based distro is the possibility of running bleeding-edge stuff, but you can't expect a package that hasn't gone through the time test to be as good as a package that has had months of production test.

But IMO the are that Gentoo really shines is managing your install. Gentoo is, by far, the best distro to customize beyond what the default gives you, while still maintaining a sane, centralized and fine-grained config to manage it.

Also, I've always found much easier to deal with occasional breakage on Gentoo than on Ubuntu. Especially because during the process of learning to use Gentoo you get to learn a lot about how a Linux system works in general, which doesn't happen with Ubuntu.

However, Gentoo suffers from not having enough manpower to keep everything running smoothly all the time. And, when there are other options out there, often you are faced with the choice to a) put some time and effort to learn and contribute to Gentoo - or b) just install something that is better supported. The latter usually wins.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tholin wrote:
Based on how much activity there is on this forum compared to the heydays of gentoo there must have been a big exodus of users.
That is the pessimistic view. The optimistic view is that forum activity has dropped off because a greater fraction of the install base is now self-supporting than it was back then. The forums are used extensively for help solving problems that the thread starter cannot solve on his/her own. If more users are now self-supporting, we get fewer help requests.
Spargeltarzan wrote:
Gentoo developers usually will also have an account in this forum. At least they should read it. This is the platform to talk about Gentoo. We do not have another place to talk, and in my opinion, developers should be active here too. And you see they are, and you see also according to asturm's post how ignorantly blind they are and how less they care.
For good or ill, asturm is an anomaly. He isn't the only developer I see active on the forums, but I see him post here more often than most other Gentoo developers. Some of them I can say I've never seen them post. I can't say whether other developers ignore the forum entirely or just don't post here, but there are many Gentoo developers who are active in the tree, but never post here.
Spargeltarzan wrote:
In all these days we have got no positive statement and no plans how they plan to improve this situation. Because there are no plans.
Do you have any indication that the people you expect to make these plans are even aware that a plan is required? As discussed above, many Gentoo developers are silent on the forums on do not read them at all. If they don't read your thread, they won't know you expect them to devise an improvement plan (setting aside whether that expectation will cause anyone to work on such a plan). If you want an improvement, you need to get the attention of the people responsible for making it happen. Unless you get lucky, posting here isn't the way to get the right attention.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting. I came to the forum this evening because of an update failure. :-)

I ended up updating my profile to 17 and I have another another update running in a terminal. My system is a very old x86 and I run stable.

I don't usually have trouble with updates. I check updates daily, automatically, with the following in crontab:
Code:
emerge --sync
echo "emerge -uDN world -p" > /home/figueroa/bin/emergeauto.txt
emerge -uDN world -p >> /home/figueroa/bin/emergeauto.txt 2>&1


Which I then also mail to myself also via crontab. I usually apply updates daily on my production desktop/server as well which take very little time most of the time. My laptop, however, I try to do at least monthly.

Gentoo in general and portage specifically is far superior to the bad-old-days (2004 to about 2010).

I support a half dozen machines remotely 700 miles away. No problem. I try to update them weekly. I also keep the kernel on a current LTS version so things don't get too out-of-date or vulnerable.

That's my testimony. Good job Gentoo developers.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saboya wrote:
I think most people have problems because they don't update often. It's hard to say how frequent is enough, but I update daily, and I rarely have any issues at all.

Prior portage versions (old old days) weren't using blockers, and weren't checking the clash, it mean if package A need B and B need A, you were having no circular dep issue, because portage wasn't checking if any exists, it was emerging both and let the user do the job if something nasty happen.
But in the case where package A that is install use package B and package C dislike B: portage was also doing it nicely, it install package C, remove package B and well, package A was dead.
That's why you have blockers: portage now check everyone's deps with the rule: everyone must remain working, if i see something bad will happen: blockers -> and you get package B is blocking package C message: because package C cannot be install with B, and B cannot be remove to not break A.
You still can emulate previous portage handling thru --nodeps, disallowing portage to look at deps make it blind to blockers ; but it comes with the prize: whatever happen need to be fix by user (which is less an issue than earlier days when you need to look everywhere who is dead now, because revdep-rebuild do the job at pointing them for you now).

So it's false to say updating often prevent getting blockers, because you could have blockers just because two packages cannot be use at the same time, and you can --sync any 1s it won't change.
It's also false to say not updating often lead to trouble: because i'm not doing that, and look how much threads i have created with blockers issue myself : and i'm in no way a portage dev.

The real issue is fishing. NeddySeagoon tell it a lot: better learn people how to fish than giving them the fish ; but when you see people from 2003 or 2010 asking "how could i emerge this?" and showing a huge list of blockers, you're not really in mood to explain them how to read blockers output, because obviously you'll waste your time.

So it's a problem with people: they want portage to do all the work, when portage or any other tool cannot do it: just blocking two packages because of a tiny use flag conflict is something portage cannot handle: to know which package use flag should be change, portage need to know what package user care the most and use flag user care the most.
And people don't care about what portage say, nor they care to learn how to read what portage is saying: it's their primary tool in use in the distro and people don't wish learn it.

And while they don't want to learn how to read portage output, they don't see that 99.9% of the time, they are able to fix themselves the issue ; when portage is saying "mmx? any-of (sse, mmxext)" it's then easy for user to set either mmxext or sse or -mmx, and user knows how to do that generally.
But tell me: how could portage itself fix the issue without blockers just like that? portage is not in user mind. He don't know what user wish, some will prefer sse, some will goes with mmxext and some will prefer -mmx solve.

It's less case with binary distro, because it's done for user: if package A need package B and package C can run only if package B is not install, you will get binaries of package A without dep on B (so lacking feature) and package C. Or only package A or package C in their tree.
Easy, but not flexible, users will complain: hey i have package A but i don't see feature from package B or why we don't have package C in the tree?
Just this simple example show gentoo flexibility: you have package A, B and C at hands: but it doesn't mean you will still be allow to do something undoable: so you cannot have package A, B and C install at the same time. (dot)
It's not portage fault, it's like that, and you can whine all you wish and take another distro you will not get that too. But users have choices to use package A with B without C, package A without B and with C, package C without A and B or even package B without A and C.
But as soon as package A, B and C comes to be install: you get blockers and need to tell portage what to do.

So, from gentoo side, gentoo has evolve greatly in the right direction, portage do take care of packages, while previously it was crushing any and user was alone to fix them, it has increase flexibility with slots, it have add security/easiness thru binaries packages, it have even add easiness with pre-build binary version of big package to build (libreoffice, firefox...), or emerge by file (emerge /etc/init.d/net.lo) or directory... List of additions that really help user is way too long!
From users side, i don't think anyone has done any wiki entry to explain people "portage speech" (and this include myself of course, but i don't touch the wiki), but i'm also not really seeing users doing any effort to figure out portage language when you could just ask in the forum and get answer to your problem (yeah, you could learn portage language or delegate your system administration to forum users, but hey, so easy to delegate).

You are the admin of your distro, gentoo has never lied about it, it is said even prior using it, as it is YOUR task to install gentoo, gentoo is not installing itself for you: you do the job.
When i see people complain against gentoo, most of the time, their complains are resume to that: WTF i need to admin my distro!?!? Why portage is not doing everything for me???
The very same user i suppose complain to binary distro forum: why package A lack that feature?? i need it, who's the dumb ass dev who build it without it!?!!?
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saboya wrote:
I think most people have problems because they don't update often.
Exactly this.
The rule which I don't follow very well. :|
To think of it... I need to update my server. \o
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1clue
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
tholin wrote:
Based on how much activity there is on this forum compared to the heydays of gentoo there must have been a big exodus of users.
That is the pessimistic view. The optimistic view is that forum activity has dropped off because a greater fraction of the install base is now self-supporting than it was back then. The forums are used extensively for help solving problems that the thread starter cannot solve on his/her own. If more users are now self-supporting, we get fewer help requests.


+1 for this. I can verify that Gentoo is a lot easier now than when I started. I took a break from Gentoo for awhile, came back and was surprised how easy everything was after that.
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McQ
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Hu wrote:
tholin wrote:
Based on how much activity there is on this forum compared to the heydays of gentoo there must have been a big exodus of users.
That is the pessimistic view. The optimistic view is that forum activity has dropped off because a greater fraction of the install base is now self-supporting than it was back then. The forums are used extensively for help solving problems that the thread starter cannot solve on his/her own. If more users are now self-supporting, we get fewer help requests.


+1 for this. I can verify that Gentoo is a lot easier now than when I started. I took a break from Gentoo for awhile, came back and was surprised how easy everything was after that.


Absolutely. Compared to 5 or so years ago Portage has advanced light years.

The amount of re-compiling and user intervention has reduced greatly.
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Aiken
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McQ wrote:
The amount of re-compiling and user intervention has reduced greatly.


Gentoo still has it's moments.

After reading the latest news item I have 14 systems to do a full rebuild on. A mix of servers, desktops and laptops. Something I am not looking forward to. Also eselect news read new &> /dev/null will be getting some use. An option to turn news off would be nice. Eselect news is handy but I do not need to read the identical thing on all 14 computers every time there is a new news item.

The python update required intervention on several machines. The gst-plugin change and subsequent revert felt like a waste of time for nothing. With my build server there is ongoing maintenance just with ROOT=/var/tmp/images/delme emerge -pvt -K $(qlist -CI) to verify the binary packages are still consistent and maintaining a local distfiles/ for everything installed an emerge -pve world to verify I have all sources packages as the contents needed in distfiles/ changes without installing new packages or doing updates. Both of these I have always assumed ebuild changes with no version bump.
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artbody
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

years ago 1994 i installed a Suse Linux ... therefore i had to open my 286 pc and have to look if that chip is from xyz with the number nnn and so on
days later it worked ... :wink:
in these day i learned to build up a 386 PC from a list of linux supported Hardware ... 8O

1998 i killed my last Windowsinstallation
since that day i've Linux only

2000 or so i discovered MandrakeLinux developer version
at that point where 2005 Mandrive jumped in
i began to search a real good linux

Enlightenment(16), worker and scite three must have packages
gentoo yes that's great :D they have it

reading the Handbook to install and compile every package
days later it worked ... :wink:

what has changed since these days ?
it's the complexity of all that stuff
Linux fails because of egocentricity
Rather than cooperating, hobby programmers, Linux distributors, and Linux-based hardware manufacturers are all too often doing their own thing. No wonder, because that's how they stand out and stand in the spotlight. Much more important, but not as public appeal , the basic work remains there on the track.

i thing every developer did a good job but they have all the same problem as nearly the whole mankind
each one of us lives in his very own small cave (read Platon politeya)
the only thing we see are the shadows of some gamers. :D

so if i , as a USER, ask friendly for help :arrow: there will be one who helps
if someone pushes his own disaster and chaos to all the others :arrow: :D :lol: :D
i take a step aside :D
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Polynomial-C
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Joined: 01 Jun 2003
Posts: 1411
Location: germany

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aiken wrote:
After reading the latest news item I have 14 systems to do a full rebuild on. A mix of servers, desktops and laptops. Something I am not looking forward to. Also eselect news read new &> /dev/null will be getting some use. An option to turn news off would be nice. Eselect news is handy but I do not need to read the identical thing on all 14 computers every time there is a new news item.


What's wrong with
Code:
FEATURES="-news"

in /etc/portage/make.conf file?
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Aiken
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Joined: 22 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not in the features list in the make.conf I have been staring at that has the features listed so did not see it will be my excuse. Last time I read anything about this an option to disable the news did not exist. This is why I started with that redirect.

I would also rather an option outside of make.conf. Most of the make.conf are identical. Edit the master and it is distributed so with those machines I do not want to start with some having different make.conf files to the others. All I can think of at the moment with that option is FEATURES="-new" emerge whatever and editing scripts is more effort than leaving the redirect to /dev/null in place.
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