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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover,

Its not distcc itself. Its mixing some gccs built with USE=pie and some with USE=-pie, with the aid of distcc.
distcc does what it always does, sends things out to be built and gets the responses back to be linked.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not in my case, it is not. All gcc-s involved are built with pie, there is no fancy cross-compiling either. All boxes are ~amd64 no-multilib with gcc-7.2. Not sure what is going wrong. :? Example error below:

Code:
/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/7.2.0/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: error: run-parts.o: requires dynamic R_X86_64_32 reloc against 'classicalre' which may overflow at runtime; recompile with -fPIC

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Spargeltarzan
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Gentoo developers should take these kind of postings as a constructive feedback and should continue improving Gentoo steadily. We all will suffer when these postings are underestimated or excuses like "Gentoo is for powerusers", "Gentoo is from volunteers" or only a personally misconfigured system is blamed for breakage. A poweruser is someone who is able to get work done very efficient and not necessarily a sysadmin nor a developer. (Yes in our case deep Linux knowledge is necessary, but we shouldn't be asked to know Gentoo from the developers' perspective to resolve conflicts or to know the impact of every use flag in deep dependencies)

Gentoo states itself as a flexible distribution what can become anything what we need, but currently this cannot be achieved. Flexible means it should be possible to configure the system to achieve enterprise availability what RHEL/CentOS, SUSE or Debian is able to deliver. When someone follows all guidelines for a stable amd64 system, a clean world file and appropriate use flags and still suffers breakage, some research should be investigated to change this situation. I understand users who do not upgrade half a year because they are afraid the system might break and breakage could mean not to be able to boot or emerge some packages any more - total loss. The poweruser is suddenly not able to work powerful anymore. I also suffered from these listed blockers and still face several other issues since gcc 6.4, only in the last past days (on a stable amd64 system), what is in my opinion too much breakage when I calculate all effort I made in advance to have a stable system. Once we have done our initial configuration and in the case we do not change it, our systems are supposed to work.

When I now read how extremely careful users touch their system, I can feel how much fear (and unfortunately experience) of a non-working system is given:
Quote:

As i usually don't have a lot of time to take care of my gentoo system, i'm pretty careful :
- i use a stable system (fewer library updates which lead to fewer compilations) with a few ~amd64 packages
- i use lts kernels which makes kernel updates easier and faster
- when a major upgrade is available, I wait for a few days before applying these updates
- applying updates regularly lead to less large breakages and helps figuring out issues
- i postpone updates if I need my computer
- i'll use buildpkg in the future but also a alternate boot drive

Users should also be able to update important security/stability updates, what I do not understand how to be able to do, when I cannot try updating my system in periods when I fully rely on a working computer. I even have another distribution on a several partition, just to be on the safe side.

Gentoo has lost many users and is probably about to lose more what will be a pitty because then the downward spiral is harder to turn.

I want to stay on Gentoo, I really like its approach, but also want to share my opinion that further testing should be done before deploying (The last blockers actually were really only a result of a lack of attention!) and the internal news feed could be used much more to inform users about possible issues. For example, when some packages cannot get compiled with gcc-6.4, why do we not get an information?

We should also see how many packages work without any issue and how many hours we enjoy our Gentoo system! Thank you for this work done and I hope we will increase this number even more - take users' feedback serious and the situation will improve!

Kind Regards
Spargeltarzan
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philip
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All,

I am now on Ububtu on my laptop and Mint on my stationary PC. It is not without sorrow I leave Gentoo. It has been a companion for more than 14 years. I value the friendly and professional help in the Gentoo Forum especially.

I urge advocates of Gentoo to develop the means to avoid blockers ( I allude to the phrase: " If there is Linux, there is a way). I believe this is crucial for the survival of Gentoo. It can not be the "end in itself" to be interested in Gentoo and use ones Linux skills to solve blockers and all the time and frustration it consumes.

I hope to be back when the blockers issue is gone and Gentoo is soaring to new heights.

Fare Well /Ph
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fedeliallalinea
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

philip wrote:
I urge advocates of Gentoo to develop the means to avoid blockers ( I allude to the phrase: " If there is Linux, there is a way). I believe this is crucial for the survival of Gentoo. It can not be the "end in itself" to be interested in Gentoo and use ones Linux skills to solve blockers and all the time and frustration it consumes.

Usaually blocked packages are caused by extended period without update or a bad management of packages, at least in stable branch
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm full with Spargeltarzan - with this attorney's speech did you think to become a lawyer? :D

edit:get->become - sorry
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Last edited by Waterdevil on Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spargeltarzan,

Everyone I'm aware of that uses Gentoo in a production environment, builds and tests on a non production system.
They then use the binaries built on the test system to update production systems.

That is, they build and test their production environment the way they want to then deploy it once testing has passed.
RHEL/CentOS, SUSE or Debian or any other binary disto does that by distributing binaries.
If you want to build from source, the testing step is all yours.

You have a misconception of a Gentoo install. Gentoo is portage and the gentoo ebuild repository. That's all. Everything else is $UPSTREAM.
When you install Gentoo, you make your own distro your way, using the toolkit provided by Gentoo.
If you deploy it in production with no testing, you get to keep all the pieces.

If you need the assurances provided by a binary distro, you should use a binary distro.

Lets take a look at the USE flags on libreoffice for example.
Code:
bluetooth +branding coinmp collada +cups dbus debug eds firebird gltf gnome googledrive gstreamer +gtk gtk3 java jemalloc kde libressl mysql odk pdfimport postgres qt4 qt5 quickstarter test vlcr

That's 28, ignoring the USE expands. So Gentoo offers over 2^28 ways to build that one package. Binary distros don't give you any choice at all.

Expand that 2^28 by all the packages that make up a desktop system ...
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1clue
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bye, phillip.
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Waterdevil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
factor $(( 2**28 ))
268435456: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2


Good example - now I know where all the hours of the day are gone with gentoo.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
philip,

I suspect you are running a mixed stable/testing system. That's recipe for regular blockers.
world file pollution is another.
Hard blockers always need your intervention. Only the system admin can choose between several equally valid paths.
Hence it cannot be automated.

Gentoo is not for everyone. Its not all even for any individual all the time.

I wish you well with your new distro of choice.


What would the point of running Gentoo if we're not running mixed stable/testing systems exactly?

I feel the same pain as Phil. This dependency system now feels just as bad as Ivy to me now. Hours of debugging for very little return.

Lately it's been crap Perl release, smelly portage deps.. I don't know, next system I install will be something else as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vokiel wrote:
What would the point of running Gentoo if we're not running mixed stable/testing systems exactly?

I feel the same pain as Phil. This dependency system now feels just as bad as Ivy to me now. Hours of debugging for very little return.

Lately it's been crap Perl release, smelly portage deps.. I don't know, next system I install will be something else as well.


Long, long ago, my perception of the Portage tree is that it was more current. I think I briefly tried ~arch and quickly ditched it for lack of interest in what was then a seemingly more troublesome emerge experience (I prefer minimal failures requiring my intervention). Except for the occasional testing package, I don't often unmask something. When I do, I typically force it to a specific version, or minor version. Also, flexibility in choice of software which may not be available elsewhere.

Personally, I'd hoped for two things. First, implementation of GLEP 19: Gentoo Stable Portage Tree (Status Withdrawn) and general support in Linux for the concept of boot environments as implemented in ZFS (man beadm). Summary of the latter, create an environment before patching. If it fails, quickly and easily revert to the pre-patched environment.

As frustrating as it can be at times, I've yet to discover a "better" alternative to Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
vokiel wrote:
What would the point of running Gentoo if we're not running mixed stable/testing systems exactly?

I feel the same pain as Phil. This dependency system now feels just as bad as Ivy to me now. Hours of debugging for very little return.

Lately it's been crap Perl release, smelly portage deps.. I don't know, next system I install will be something else as well.


Long, long ago, my perception of the Portage tree is that it was more current. I think I briefly tried ~arch and quickly ditched it for lack of interest in what was then a seemingly more troublesome emerge experience (I prefer minimal failures requiring my intervention). Except for the occasional testing package, I don't often unmask something. When I do, I typically force it to a specific version, or minor version. Also, flexibility in choice of software which may not be available elsewhere.

Personally, I'd hoped for two things. First, implementation of GLEP 19: Gentoo Stable Portage Tree (Status Withdrawn) and general support in Linux for the concept of boot environments as implemented in ZFS (man beadm). Summary of the latter, create an environment before patching. If it fails, quickly and easily revert to the pre-patched environment.

As frustrating as it can be at times, I've yet to discover a "better" alternative to Gentoo.


Well since we can't update anything anymore because of ridiculous blockade constructs, I think it'll be easier to find a "better" alternative. One of my systems just can't update portage anymore. This stupidity is gonna have to change imho.
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Hu
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perl upgrades are a bit of a nuisance, but mainly because the lack of slot support means that I have to disable any cron jobs that run Perl scripts during the upgrade, since the modules will be broken until the upgrade finishes.

As for inability to update Portage, I've sometimes hit blockers on outdated systems, but I've yet to hit one I can't solve using the output from Portage.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well since we can't update anything anymore because of ridiculous blockade constructs, I think it'll be easier to find a "better" alternative. One of my systems just can't update portage anymore. This stupidity is gonna have to change imho.


Quite a few blockers are due to user error, and rather easy to fix if you read the output. I do admit portage's output isn't always too clear, especially when on python changes, which tends to be the more difficult ones. Even then, they are not always too difficult to figure out if you look at what USE flags portage is wanting to install the packages with (I almost always use -v to show the USE flags for the packages).

From what I often see, is that it seems that people are too afraid to read the output. Other times, they only consider shoving the entire elephant down your throat at once; when it would be easier to break it up into pieces... In the end, a good portion of blockers are easy to identify the issue if you look for key words. It's just like a word problem in math; the problem may give you more information than you need, you just need to ignore the extra stuff and use what you need. Likewise, in a large math problem, its often much easier to to solve a problem if you break it up into pieces.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ct85711 wrote:
Quote:
Well since we can't update anything anymore because of ridiculous blockade constructs, I think it'll be easier to find a "better" alternative. One of my systems just can't update portage anymore. This stupidity is gonna have to change imho.


Quite a few blockers are due to user error, and rather easy to fix if you read the output. I do admit portage's output isn't always too clear, especially when on python changes, which tends to be the more difficult ones. Even then, they are not always too difficult to figure out if you look at what USE flags portage is wanting to install the packages with (I almost always use -v to show the USE flags for the packages).

From what I often see, is that it seems that people are too afraid to read the output. Other times, they only consider shoving the entire elephant down your throat at once; when it would be easier to break it up into pieces... In the end, a good portion of blockers are easy to identify the issue if you look for key words. It's just like a word problem in math; the problem may give you more information than you need, you just need to ignore the extra stuff and use what you need. Likewise, in a large math problem, its often much easier to to solve a problem if you break it up into pieces.


Well I disagree, the latest output I've seen is garbage. As in rambling about circular dependencies between 2 python libs (six & setuptools) and other weird artifacts suggesting to put some libs under ~amd64 for no reasons. That's either a poorly designed dependency tree or some serious bugs. I had to emerge everything up to portage manually by disabling dependency resolution (--nodeps). Surely we shouldn't be satisfied with a system that can be fixed in an easier manner by deactivating it!!?

Anyway, I not familiar with every effort that goes into this, so forgive the ranting...

That said I still think the original complaint in post #1 should be taken seriously.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just don't get the point of writing a "dear John" letter to a Linux forum.

There is no cash prize for staying with one distro.

There is no serious benefit to you for staying with one distro.

There is no money made or lost by anyone based on what distro you use, unless that distro charges money for your installation.

It is a very valuable thing to be familiar with multiple distros at the same time. Go explore, have fun, maybe we'll see you in another life.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue,

The point is there is a prize for Gentoo when this situation improves. Happier existing users, more new users, better reputation, more volunteers who contribute, easier life for Gentoo developers since they don't have to troubleshoot an emergency when things are broken, ...

There is a benefit for users when staying in a distro: using the system which they are used to be, feeling trust to the system, no migration effort, ...

When a distro steals time or is broken, it usually could also mean to lose money

It is valuable to know distros, but distro-hopping is nonsense and when we already use the most flexible distro existing, we can create exactly the system we need. Just it shouldn't become broken.

Therefore, it's highest time for a "dear John" letter. Let's change things!

For me it is actually hard to understand why Gentoo developers don't admit to mistakes and let us know they are working on it.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vokiel wrote:
Surely we shouldn't be satisfied with a system that can be fixed in an easier manner by deactivating it!!?

Anyway, I not familiar with every effort that goes into this, so forgive the ranting...
The tools are generally being developed for improvements. Are you aware of a solution which can be implemented in tooling? Some problems can be difficult to crack. I don't know about the specific issues you mentioned, but it may be that no one has found a way to do it.

vokiel wrote:
That said I still think the original complaint in post #1 should be taken seriously.
What, exactly? In a subsequent post, the author clarified the problem as such:
philip wrote:
I run a mixed stable/testing system [and] I update my system quite seldom in fact.
Gentoo has always been a rolling release which requires "frequent" updates (thus my earlier reference to the GLEP).

I believe the general consensus is to perform updates at least once per month. I have read of some who only update security fixes and consider anything else (in my words) the equivalent of a major release update. Often with a BINHOST to reduce time.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe the general consensus is to perform updates at least once per month. I have read of some who only update security fixes and consider anything else (in my words) the equivalent of a major release update. Often with a BINHOST to reduce time.


How does it work to update only security fixes? Will I have to decide manually which packages to upgrade?

Quote:

What, exactly? In a subsequent post, the author clarified the problem as such:
philip wrote:
I run a mixed stable/testing system [and] I update my system quite seldom in fact.


We also identified blockers occuring on a stable amd64 system which was up to date.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spargeltarzan

Code:
emerge @security
checks your installed packages against GLSAs.
You only get fixes after they have been announced that way.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have got a new example:

The recent wine split into wine-vanilla, wine-staging, wine-d3d9, wine-any was quite good prepared, there was a news item about it and I was able to resolve the blocker by making a choice which new wine version I want to use. Also a great improvement that we can install different wine versions simultaneously. Almost "thumbs up - very well done" for it if there was not:

"The stable version of app-emulation/winetricks still depends on app-emulation/wine, which was masked due to the package split. Bug"

So again clean amd64 users have got a "not-so-easy if not impossible" to resolve blocker due to - I guess not enough testing before deploying. It is not a users job to troubleshoot this!

What I do not understand additionally is, there is a ~amd64 branch where these kind of issues should be resolved at the latest.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's so difficult about `emerge -Cq winetricks`?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vokiel wrote:
What would the point of running Gentoo if we're not running mixed stable/testing systems exactly?
While Gentoo is pretty capable of doing this, there should be (imo) a note/warning in the Handbook that mixing stable and unstable will eventually resort in blockers that need manual intervention.
I run amd64 on my server and have had exactly zero problems with blockers. On my ~amd64 desktop I've had some. Maybe because a huge set of use -flags in make.conf and several added overlays... One could say I've been asking for conflicts. ;)
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
What's so difficult about `emerge -Cq winetricks`?


Of course I did it, sorry, I should have said "not-so-easy if not impossible" blocker unless I uninstall the application I need to work with. I really use winetricks! For me a tweak in winetricks is necessary for an virtualised application which I use every day.

Is this the objective of Gentoo, uninstall all stable applications which become broken and don't complain about issues? I will setup a machine with only sudo installed and post to the forum how happy I am! (ps: bye the way, around 1250 installed stable packages are really not a big system)
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
I just don't get the point of writing a "dear John" letter to a Linux forum.

Based on how much activity there is on this forum compared to the heydays of gentoo there must have been a big exodus of users. Most users never bother to explain why they move away so when there is an explanation it's a opportunity to investigate what can be done to improve the distribution.

In my experience gentoo is falling apart. There isn't enough developers to keep it running and certainly not enough users to test it. Gentoo will probably limp on for several more years but there comes a time when you as a user can't deal with it anymore and start looking elsewhere.

Portage's error message when there is a conflict is basically a debug print that isn't intended to be interpreted by regular users. To make sense of it you usually have to read and understand the .ebuilds involved and understand how portage's dependency resolution works. That's not something a user should be expected to know, is it? Mixing stable and testing will result in blockers but even just a stable system gets at least a blocker or build failure each month due to negligence. Developers don't seem to care about this and are happy to blame the users for any problem (see asturm's post above). Because of the endless stream of blockers and other problems there will eventually not be any users left, just developers who can deal with problems themselves.
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