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Migration from Xorg to Wayland. Is it a good idea?
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g-virus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:28 pm    Post subject: Migration from Xorg to Wayland. Is it a good idea? Reply with quote

Hello everyone! I have fully configured laptop with Gentoo + OpenRC + KDE Plasma 5 and I like it, but sometimes I think about migration to Wayland. As people says - it should be better in performance. Can somebody tell me about an own experience with Wayland and with troubles which could I get during migration?

Thanks in advance
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saboya
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not better. The only positive thing you could argue for Wayland against X right now it usually has less tearing. That's about it.
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g-virus
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saboya wrote:
It's not better. The only positive thing you could argue for Wayland against X right now it usually has less tearing. That's about it.


That's sadly :( I thought it will be better with Wayland. Why they says so much about big and good differences with X?
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is under development. Heavily.

There is no either or here anyway, both Wayland support and X server are going to be installed side by side in the foreseeable future. So you simply enter a Plasma Wayland session and log out again if you don't like it...
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saboya
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

g-virus wrote:
That's sadly :( I thought it will be better with Wayland. Why they says so much about big and good differences with X?


Most of it just comes from fanaticism in my opinion, there's a lot of anti-X going on, I don't know why. I have nothing against Wayland, and hope it succeeds, but I see no reason to use it today. It's just objectively worse than X.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saboya wrote:
Most of it just comes from fanaticism in my opinion, there's a lot of anti-X going on, I don't know why. I have nothing against Wayland, and hope it succeeds, but I see no reason to use it today. It's just objectively worse than X.

Everything is 'worse' before it is ready. But X is already 'worse' in many respects than Wayland compositors are at this point.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saboya wrote:
The only positive thing you could argue for Wayland against X right now it usually has less tearing.

Wayland supports keycodes > 255. I've got a 10 year old USB keyboard with a few dead hotkeys that'll never work in X11.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will definitely switch to Wayland as soon as it's ready. The most important reason for me is security: https://lwn.net/Articles/589147/
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
It is under development. Heavily.

There is no either or here anyway, both Wayland support and X server are going to be installed side by side in the foreseeable future. So you simply enter a Plasma Wayland session and log out again if you don't like it...


Yes, I've tried to enter the Plasma Wayland mode, but there is no any reaction, everything is freezing and I have to press reset button :(
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g-virus
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saboya wrote:
g-virus wrote:
That's sadly :( I thought it will be better with Wayland. Why they says so much about big and good differences with X?


Most of it just comes from fanaticism in my opinion, there's a lot of anti-X going on, I don't know why. I have nothing against Wayland, and hope it succeeds, but I see no reason to use it today. It's just objectively worse than X.


The most reason for me is stability. Probably I'm wrong when I think Wayland is more stable, but I just want to use KDE5, I want to use Gentoo/Linux and I don't want any fucking bugs :( probably it is only my system like this, but I'm tired to get KWin effectes crashed after wake up from hibernation. It is not each time but It is sometimes. I see macOs-users and their macbooks and I wish linux with X/Wayland to be so stable and beautiful too because I don't like to use mac :(
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

g-virus wrote:
I wish linux with X/Wayland to be so stable and beautiful too because I don't like to use mac :(
Well, that might actually be a function of the desktop environment and not X or wayland. The problem with KDE is a large codebase. Too much work to debug entirely. Your time might be better spent looking into awsome, i3, xfce, or any of the other window managers to find one that suits you better.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saboya wrote:

Most of it just comes from fanaticism in my opinion, there's a lot of anti-X going on, I don't know why.

Not Invented Here. the same reason RedHat keeps reinventing the wheel (badly).
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
saboya wrote:

Most of it just comes from fanaticism in my opinion, there's a lot of anti-X going on, I don't know why.

Not Invented Here. the same reason RedHat keeps reinventing the wheel (badly).

There are unsolvable issues with X. Before you spread nonsense, please read information on the matter.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Tony0945 wrote:
saboya wrote:

Most of it just comes from fanaticism in my opinion, there's a lot of anti-X going on, I don't know why.

Not Invented Here. the same reason RedHat keeps reinventing the wheel (badly).

There are unsolvable issues with X. Before you spread nonsense, please read information on the matter.


Link?
I myself find hard to believe Xorg code is read-only, and i was thinking licensing issues where the reason why xorg was made over X.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some 'whys and wherefores' regarding wayland:

https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html

shrike
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shrike wrote:
Some 'whys and wherefores' regarding wayland:

https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html

shrike

Read the document. It reminds me of the DBUS and UDEV documents. It sounds reasonable and maybe it is, but that depends greatly on the competence of the designers.
As for why Wayland, the answer I see there is "X is old". i.e. "not invented here". They do present some use cases that cannot be done with X or or tortuous to do with X. I ask "Why do you want to do that?" Obviously someone does. I don't. I don't object to Wayland, I just don't buy that X is horribly broken and must be discarded.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945: the security model of X11 is horribly broken.

Just consider the following example: you work on your computer and you have opened several X applications (keepassx* and Firefox, for example). Then you open a terminal window and log into a remote computer using "ssh -Y". From that moment, a malicious system administrator or a hacker with root access on the remote server can see your complete screen including all your local windows. He also can read your mouse and keyboard input, even if you work in a local window.

Is that broken or isn't that broken?
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g-virus
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
g-virus wrote:
I wish linux with X/Wayland to be so stable and beautiful too because I don't like to use mac :(
Well, that might actually be a function of the desktop environment and not X or wayland. The problem with KDE is a large codebase. Too much work to debug entirely. Your time might be better spent looking into awsome, i3, xfce, or any of the other window managers to find one that suits you better.


Yes, I know that KDE is one big bug, but it is the only one DM which I really like because I like nice effects, animations, transparent elements, I like a modern design. You might say me "just use Gnome 3" and I will say I already did it. I had the gnome3 with Debian in my laptop and I realized that KDE is mine variant. I've tried to use xfce also, with compiz effects and sometimes it looks pretty good but if you look more attentively at xfce it looks very old. Really old, in my opinion. awesome, i3, openbox looks pretty good also, but I don't like frame DMs. And what to do if you just like to use beautiful, stable and modern DM and you don't like gnome and you don't like to use windows or mac :D
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bug_report wrote:
Tony0945: the security model of X11 is horribly broken.

Just consider the following example: you work on your computer and you have opened several X applications (keepassx* and Firefox, for example). Then you open a terminal window and log into a remote computer using "ssh -Y". From that moment, a malicious system administrator or a hacker with root access on the remote server can see your complete screen including all your local windows. He also can read your mouse and keyboard input, even if you work in a local window.

Is that broken or isn't that broken?

Depends on whether or not you ssh into computers outside your LAN. I don't. I suspect most home users don't. But it is a problem for corporate users.

I do see your point and it's my objection to smart phone controlled thermostats, especially those that require you to open your network to some company's "cloud" controller.

EDIT: BTW, my Windows computer did have malware on it. Not from a hacker but the program (CCleaner). The company's official download was infected!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
I myself find hard to believe Xorg code is read-only

You know very well that's not even half the story.

To state that Wayland is a case of NIH is blatantly ignorant, plain simple. The people working on it are X developers who know exactly why they are doing it. It has overwhelming community support from X itself to toolkits up to DEs.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945: the situation for the home user isn't much better.

Another example: start a password safe (keepassx*) and another X application (maybe your browser) on your computer. Now select the window of your password safe and view or create some entries. The problem is: whatever you do: the other application (your browser) can see that. As long as you trust your browser and it doesn't call home, everything is fine. But if your browser contains code that makes screenshots of your password safe window or grabs keyboard events and sends them home, you're lost. Even worse: your browser could send keyboard events to your password safe and browse through all of your entries.

What I want is a window system that prohibits access to other application's windows. Keyboard and mouse events should only be sent to the application I'm currently working with - and not to all applications.

X currently can't do that - and that's the reason why X developers (!) started to develop a successor of the X11 protocol. They could have called it X12, but they decided to call it Wayland.

I can hardly await the day when Wayland will be ready and I'm pretty sure that I will switch immediately...
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayland is simply immature. I don't think you can judge it on its merits yet. It is easy to see why the X devs wanted to move on. X has been tinkered with for decades to add new technology to the code base. The result being spaghetti code. But, just for fun, I'm going to try it out now and see for myself :)

As for Security, you can be sure there are security holes in wayland. It may just be that they haven't been discovered yet. Who knows, maybe it includes a "send all user data to NSA" callback ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Who knows, maybe it includes a "send all user data to NSA" callback ;)

That would be a first for a _protocol_, methinks. It is not a server. For the same reason you can not call 'Wayland' immature - your Wayland session will be exactly as stable, unstable, secure or insecure as your Wayland compositor (be it kwin, mutter, enlightenment, tizen, lipstick...) is. And last but not least nvidia-drivers users need not even think about it (except using Gnome3, where they bent over backwards to support a separate codepath entirely for Nvidia after they had revealed an ultimately incompatible kind-of support...).

g-virus wrote:
Yes, I've tried to enter the Plasma Wayland mode, but there is no any reaction, everything is freezing and I have to press reset button :(

The reason for that is probably rooted in your graphics stack and maybe lack of compatible session manager, if you didn't look at our KDE wiki at all. Not that there is much of a 'how to properly do Wayland' yet, since we have to wait for Qt-5.9.2/Plasma-5.11 to give it a reasonable try. Forget it with stable keyword, anyway.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm... one thing with wayland I did not anticipate at all. Secured video services, like hulu.com, won't steam to a browser running on wayland. So there is that.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm used to run X apps remotely. I do it alot. Have done for many years. I understand Wayland is not for me?
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