Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Someone Tell Lennart Poettering to Stand in the Street
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

 
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
wswartzendruber
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 1243
Location: ID, USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:12 am    Post subject: Someone Tell Lennart Poettering to Stand in the Street Reply with quote

I'm going to drive over his dumb ass with my truck.

systemctl should not return non-zero simply because I choose to query the status of a service that happens to be stopped. It should return non-zero if the query operation itself fails and the code should specify why it failed.

Fuckin' idiot...
_________________
Glock 19 Gen 4
XS DXT Big Dot
Alien Gear ShapeShift IWB
Federal Premium HST 124gr (P9HST1)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16757

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally had to use it at work. From a UI/UX perspective, it is horribly designed.
_________________
Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things that escape those who dream only at night. --Poe
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HungGarTiger
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 04 Feb 2014
Posts: 130
Location: /nz/auckland

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:23 am    Post subject: Re: Someone Tell Lennart Poettering to Stand in the Street Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
I'm going to drive over his dumb ass with my truck.

systemctl should not return non-zero simply because I choose to query the status of a service that happens to be stopped. It should return non-zero if the query operation itself fails and the code should specify why it failed.

Fuckin' idiot...


Lennart wrote:
Just don't do that thing, then it isn't a problem.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
saellaven
Guru
Guru


Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 463

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a vocal opponent of systemd based on the merits, I wish Poettering no ill will. In fact, he will probably quote your post at some point to talk about how people want him dead (as he's done in the past).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5079
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
As a vocal opponent of systemd based on the merits, I wish Poettering no ill will. In fact, he will probably quote your post at some point to talk about how people want him dead (as he's done in the past).
Exactly.

The best thing for linux is he keeps on going pushing he crap architectural designs. The more his screwups occur, the more he posts his ridiculous defenses the more people will really see how bad it is. Silence him, give him a valid reason to dismiss and it will perpetuate.

Let him burn himself out due to his incompetence.
_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16757

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, there is this thing called hyperbole.

Naib wrote:
Let him burn himself out due to his incompetence.
Is RedHat going to burn out? Pottering is just a dev. Maybe he finishes his contribution and moves on to another project. But RH is still going to have an employee who maintains that code base. And with as much as systemd as usurped, it would be a big undertaking to undo.

I'd say the better approach would be to build a better alternative.
_________________
Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things that escape those who dream only at night. --Poe
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Doctor
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 2340

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be completely wrong, but I suspect systemd will not survive without Pottering's cult of personality. Once that is gone Redhat will move on to the next "Big Thing" to cover its complacency with the spaghetti code and general mess.

Of course, how other distros react is the wild card. They may opt for developing their own or adopting OpenRC. I tend to think that is an eventual outcome since Pottering seems to have a habit of alienating key developers.
_________________
First things first, but not necessarily in that order.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aidanjt
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: Rep. of Ireland

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
I may be completely wrong, but I suspect systemd will not survive without Pottering's cult of personality.

I'm not entirely sure how it ended up spreading so far with his personality in the first place. The guy is full on cancer incarnate.
_________________
juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Doctor
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 2340

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
I may be completely wrong, but I suspect systemd will not survive without Pottering's cult of personality.
I'm not entirely sure how it ended up spreading so far with his personality in the first place. The guy is full on cancer incarnate.
Exactly. It isn't your weight. It's how you throw it around. ;)

He has been very successful in whipping up supporters in key locations. The plebs really don't get a vote and he doesn't mind stepping on them. That works out in the short term, but long term it is asking for rebellion.
_________________
First things first, but not necessarily in that order.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wswartzendruber
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 1243
Location: ID, USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose I wouldn't care about this if I had a chip in my head...
_________________
Glock 19 Gen 4
XS DXT Big Dot
Alien Gear ShapeShift IWB
Federal Premium HST 124gr (P9HST1)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naib
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5079
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

even a systemd powered chip
_________________
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter
Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wswartzendruber
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 1243
Location: ID, USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, any part of the chip that decided to get the status of a stopped service would probably cause the whole thing to fail.
_________________
Glock 19 Gen 4
XS DXT Big Dot
Alien Gear ShapeShift IWB
Federal Premium HST 124gr (P9HST1)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hu
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 11434

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I hate the mess that systemd has created, I feel I should point out that this specific complaint seems ill-placed, or at least ill-explained. OpenRC also returns a nonzero status when I query a stopped service, and as far as I know, this is the expected way of testing whether the service manager thinks the service should be running. Specifically, I did /etc/init.d/lvm --quiet status on a system where LVM is not running, and $? afterward was 3. Running the same command for a service that is presently running sets $? to 0.

OP: what do you think should be the workflow for querying whether a given service is expected to be running?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wswartzendruber
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 1243
Location: ID, USA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
As much as I hate the mess that systemd has created, I feel I should point out that this specific complaint seems ill-placed, or at least ill-explained. OpenRC also returns a nonzero status when I query a stopped service, and as far as I know, this is the expected way of testing whether the service manager thinks the service should be running. Specifically, I did /etc/init.d/lvm --quiet status on a system where LVM is not running, and $? afterward was 3. Running the same command for a service that is presently running sets $? to 0.

OP: what do you think should be the workflow for querying whether a given service is expected to be running?

I missed this reply for some reason.

Hu wrote:
OP: what do you think should be the workflow for querying whether a given service is expected to be running?

How about you don't return non-zero if the operation is successful? What you're suggesting is that I ran:

Code:
systemctl assert whatever.service running

I'm not asserting anything. I'm asking. Non-zero should only be returned if it can't successfully carry out its orders, and the value of that return code should why.
_________________
Glock 19 Gen 4
XS DXT Big Dot
Alien Gear ShapeShift IWB
Federal Premium HST 124gr (P9HST1)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aidanjt
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: Rep. of Ireland

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
I'm asking. Non-zero should only be returned if it can't successfully carry out its orders, and the value of that return code should why.


Why would there ever be a case where an init system would ever fail to print current status? More useful information to your scripts would be to enumerate the number of failed services, would it not?

I hate systemd as much as anyone, but this doesn't really seem to be the hill worth dying on.
_________________
juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
R0b0t1
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
I'm asking. Non-zero should only be returned if it can't successfully carry out its orders, and the value of that return code should why.


Why would there ever be a case where an init system would ever fail to print current status? More useful information to your scripts would be to enumerate the number of failed services, would it not?
I would expect a nonzero return value to mean the status of the service is indeterminate. Knowing that it has stopped is not indeterminate.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aidanjt
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: Rep. of Ireland

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R0b0t1 wrote:
I would expect a nonzero return value to mean the status of the service is indeterminate. Knowing that it has stopped is not indeterminate.


Or it could have a specific number for general failure and another for an indeterminate failure state.
_________________
juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wswartzendruber
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 1243
Location: ID, USA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Why would there ever be a case where an init system would ever fail to print current status?

1. Permission denied.
2. Service not found.
3. Service manager not started.

etc...
_________________
Glock 19 Gen 4
XS DXT Big Dot
Alien Gear ShapeShift IWB
Federal Premium HST 124gr (P9HST1)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum