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sugar
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
When you can just force your arbitrary decision down everybody's throats, you don't really have to make it work for anybody. Authoritarian commie-ass monopoly ftw!


organisations must balance the interests of all stakeholders. Especially employees. Not just the tax payers. If this means having a union readdress this balance, then so be it.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Balance" my ass.

They are demanding far, far more than their services are worth. What kind of "balance" is that?

Oh, wait, I know: "From each what he is able, and to each what he needs.". Am I right?

Let's stop kidding ourselves here folks. It's time to full global commie-nazi. It's the right thing to do.

Marxism: because genocide is for the common good.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
"Balance" my ass.

They are demanding far, far more than their services are worth. What kind of "balance" is that?

Oh, wait, I know: "From each what he is able, and to each what he needs.". Am I right?

Let's stop kidding ourselves here folks. It's time to full global commie-nazi. It's the right thing to do.

Marxism: because genocide is for the common good.


Freeman's Stakeholder theory is Maxism?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
whatever. Looks like they won. The council figured out a solution that would work for both sides. Surprise surprise.


No, the council caved in, question - who do you think is going to pay for this ?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Naib wrote:
sugar wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
No more bin collections until Christmas!

Quote:
After six weeks without rubbish collections, Birmingham's streets have become a stinking, rat-infested mess.

But things could be about to get even worse – after striking binmen yesterday threatened to extend their walkouts until Christmas.


This is easy to solve, fire the lot of them and make those that want to work reapply for their jobs.

Or, we have unemployed, those doing community service, use them. Bloody Labour.


apparently the job of rubbish collection is socially important. Important enough that you will come to OTW and complain when they are not doing their jobs.

Pay them what they are socially worth.
are you aware of what they are striking over?

They presently work 37hours over 4days + 5th day as overtime & the council want to change this to 37hours over 5days
The majority of birmingham still uses binbags "dumped" at the side of the street but is (slowly) replacing these with wheely bins as these increase productivity
As a result of that they want to reduce the number of binmen per truck from iirc 4 to 3.

The issues here are
1) redundancy - BCC have stated there shouldn't be any job losses but the supervisors would move
2) working 5days by default (shock horror I work 6...)
3) lunchtime disputes.

What you are failing to appreciate here is the labour gov'n have significantly overspent for DECADES!, they are in debt! they cannot keep funding lots of socialistic schemes for hte benefit of the few... Birmingham got hit by some of the harshest austerity targets and rightly so... overspent, underproduction... FFS the child services in this city is a joke! the amount of child abuse that has been "permitted" to occur is criminal.
so where is the money going to come from when Labour have squandered soo much and then those on benefits keep voting them in because they know they will lose their benefits ... The vicious cycle of socialism.

its pathetic the binmen are striking over a 5day week, it is pathetic they are striking because there is means to increase productivity & cut costs! the only legitimate argument is the potential loss of jobs. Do you know what the council does to ensure a 5day week coverage in light of the unions securing a 4day decades ago? if they can't get enough people todo overtime THEY contract out at a higher rate to the private sector ££££££££

Now because of this, my local tip is having massive queues at 8am as people try to dispose of the waste they have already paid removal for, which is significantly slowing down transit in the morning rush hour... Great so their actions are now reducing the productivity of the entire city ( I assume the whole city, I only know about my area and how my journey has increased by 40min if I catch it wrong...)

So Einstein. If the City is in debt, if most of the employment terms are what us in the private sector already do, where is the extra money going to come from when all departments have wasted £££, printing all council documents in what? 21 languages when there is only two LEGALLY recognises languages in the United Kingdom... come on Einstein.
And at the end of the day they are binmen, I stress men because I have not seen a single female on any of the trucks and there is one that works at the local tip. To be a binmen is not a highly skilled job and considering the dispute isn't over pay but work ethic what todo ...
And do you know the cherry on the cake... the changes proposed by the council to save money bring it in line with other councils around the country

here you go: the child services issue summaries... too much bullshit to go digging and a lot of it because wify's friend works in this dept... Largest in the country, biggest failing
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-33081078

council £49m in the red
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/birmingham-city-council-budget-under-12146875

The Labour fatcats of townHall..
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/308837/Shameless-councils-wasting-YOUR-money
Quote:
Birmingham spent £544,686 on consultants for “temporary research and development” and £248,740 for “human resources, training and education”. Ipswich Borough Council spent £935,000 on a management consultant, while Waltham Forest, one of the six London boroughs hosting the Olympic Games, spent £420,000 on a recruitment agent to employ directors in two departments suffering more than £10million of cuts this year: adult social care and children and young people services. It also paid £317,760 to two companies for consultants to act as assistant directors in other departments.


perksperkperks
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/408097/Council-millions-go-to-waste-on-perks
Quote:
Birmingham City Council spent £319,000 visiting 43 countries. Wigan spent £25,000 a year, including £23,000 on a salary, for an “ambassador” on twinning with the Loire Valley town Angers in France.


have a look at their 2017-2018 budget
file:///home/jrb/Downloads/Budget_for_Birmingham_Council_Tax_help_and_information_booklet_2017_to_2018.pdf

Also a ~5% rise in council tax so we can get poorer services for more money. NOTE inflation is sitting at 2.7% So why the extra money and decrease in services? WASTE something they have already shown they can't manage
https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/20011/your_council/237/council_financial_plan

This and every previous Labour council has just squandered the money... every time I hear about this and other wasted schemes it reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boAWFriUsMo


whatever. Looks like they won. The council figured out a solution that would work for both sides. Surprise surprise.



"Whatever". You spent at least a page defending their actions when. You didn't even know what it was about. You were arguing with two Brummie who do, two Brummies who have rubbish still not collected. Remember when you said it was about pay? 30seconds on Google would have got MSM articles stating it wasn't about pay
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:

"Whatever". You spent at least a page defending their actions when. You didn't even know what it was about. You were arguing with two Brummie who do, two Brummies who have rubbish still not collected. Remember when you said it was about pay? 30seconds on Google would have got MSM articles stating it wasn't about pay


So, in NZ anyway, reporting of industrial disputes is usually pretty poor, as union rates are quite low these days, and most reported aren't familiar with, say, the difference between a strike and a lockout. I went to the actual union website, as in these matters, I find the union itself more reliable. I can assure you that I did look this up before I commented.

Quote:
Unite said that the local authority regarded the dispute as about working patterns, while the union said that it was about safety on the refuse vehicles and threats to the jobs and incomes of already lowly paid workers who could lose up to £5,000-a-year.


http://www.unitetheunion.org/news/talks-on-cards-in-birmingham-bin-dispute/

As an aside, it's pretty unusual for a union to come out and say 'this is about money'. Usually they will say 'this is about working patterns and health and safety, and to support a worker that got the sack unfairly', because wanting more money doesn't go down well with the public. Of course, if they're not being paid well to begin with, so guess the union thought it would be worth the gamble.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
sugar wrote:
whatever. Looks like they won. The council figured out a solution that would work for both sides. Surprise surprise.


No, the council caved in, question - who do you think is going to pay for this ?


maybe the money can come from the Basketball and Urban Street Festival?

https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/news/article/120/basketball_and_urban_street_festival_at_heart_of_birmingham_s_bid
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
"Balance" my ass.

They are demanding far, far more than their services are worth. What kind of "balance" is that?

Oh, wait, I know: "From each what he is able, and to each what he needs.". Am I right?

Let's stop kidding ourselves here folks. It's time to full global commie-nazi. It's the right thing to do.

Marxism: because genocide is for the common good.


Freeman's Stakeholder theory is Maxism?

Stakeholder optimization games usually achieve "optimum" defined by proportional benefit (i.e., you benefit in proportion with your relative contribution). Only collectivist authoritarians can delude themselves into thinking that such proportionality is less than an integral, principal, and essential element of the fair or just optimum.

You can't take Management 101 and think you're ready apply the bullshit you've learned at a conceptual level to the real, quantitative world. Nor should you fall victim to others with that level of knowledge who think they are therefore qualified to prognosticate philosophically while waving their hands at big words in the air.

Oh, and his name was "Marx", not "Max".
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
sugar wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
"Balance" my ass.

They are demanding far, far more than their services are worth. What kind of "balance" is that?

Oh, wait, I know: "From each what he is able, and to each what he needs.". Am I right?

Let's stop kidding ourselves here folks. It's time to full global commie-nazi. It's the right thing to do.

Marxism: because genocide is for the common good.


Freeman's Stakeholder theory is Maxism?

Stakeholder optimization games usually achieve "optimum" defined by proportional benefit (i.e., you benefit in proportion with your relative contribution). Only collectivist authoritarians can delude themselves into thinking that such proportionality is less than an integral, principal, and essential element of the fair or just optimum.

You can't take Management 101 and think you're ready apply the bullshit you've learned at a conceptual level to the real, quantitative world. Nor should you fall victim to others with that level of knowledge who think they are therefore qualified to prognosticate philosophically while waving their hands at big words in the air.

Oh, and his name was "Marx", not "Max".


#iamverysmart
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
maybe the money can come from the Basketball and Urban Street Festival?

https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/news/article/120/basketball_and_urban_street_festival_at_heart_of_birmingham_s_bid


Interesting, so we cancel events that (may) promote the city *, so that a bunch of militants get their way (again).

There'll be another strike with the dustmen BTW, the last was 2011 IIRC.


Edit - from the link above

Quote:
Sitting at the heart of the UK, and standing for the diversity of the Commonwealth,


JB vomits. OK - cancel the basketball, trust the bloody council to take a sport and turn into a multicultural diversity statement.



* Let's start with cutting translation services.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:

JB vomits. OK - cancel the basketball, trust the bloody council to take a sport and turn into a multicultural diversity statement.
* Let's start with cutting translation services.


Personally, im not sold on the idea that a council should promote a city and rather focus on providing and maintaining infrastructure only. Its just my own opinion. Id much rather the refuse collection staff were paid a wage they could live on, and forget funding an orchestra, organising sporting event, paying for an art gallery etc. Even social housing should be run by the state rather than the local council.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Id much rather the refuse collection staff were paid a wage they could live on.


But they are, this was never about wages.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's something to be said for promoting a city to businesses, since it helps bring in private investment. But government funded culture splurges is pure bullshit. Social housing stock is woefully inadequate and a much higher priority.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And old JB has three more missed collections, meanwhile :

Birmingham bin strike: Report warns deal 'unaffordable'
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
sugar wrote:
Id much rather the refuse collection staff were paid a wage they could live on.


But they are, this was never about wages.


how do you know that? were you sitting at the negotiation table?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
sugar wrote:
Id much rather the refuse collection staff were paid a wage they could live on.


But they are, this was never about wages.


how do you know that? were you sitting at the negotiation table?
because it has explicitly be stated time and time again it's about a particular supervisory role being made REDUNDANT.
This position is no longer needed with the new rigs.

The supervisory role had a purpose with open back refuse sack collection, they do not with the Wheely bins that were provided to all of brim to save money (scrapping supervisory role, making the service 5days-37h instead of 4days-37h+overtime) but I have explained that & you chose to dismiss that post... The deal preliminarily reached was that there were no redundancies so the level3 pay workers could stay on the rigs. This will now cause a serious pay dispute as the other workers, doing EXACTLY the same role can legally demanded equal pay. Birmingham council is already running g a deficit, they cannot afford an unwarranted payrise due to a foolish deal that was brokered THUS the only way forward after this Friday is the strike is back on. The initial strike was never about wages, if labour caves this Friday a future strike will be about wages due to the forced pay inequality...

Two Brummies have constantly told you what this is about. We are the ones here that have to pay for labours incompetent NOT you, we are the ones here that have not had our bins collected NOT you. And still you wont listen. What is your major malfunction
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
sugar wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
sugar wrote:
Id much rather the refuse collection staff were paid a wage they could live on.


But they are, this was never about wages.


how do you know that? were you sitting at the negotiation table?
because it has explicitly be stated time and time again it's about a particular supervisory role being made REDUNDANT.
This position is no longer needed with the new rigs.

The supervisory role had a purpose with open back refuse sack collection, they do not with the Wheely bins that were provided to all of brim to save money (scrapping supervisory role, making the service 5days-37h instead of 4days-37h+overtime) but I have explained that & you chose to dismiss that post... The deal preliminarily reached was that there were no redundancies so the level3 pay workers could stay on the rigs. This will now cause a serious pay dispute as the other workers, doing EXACTLY the same role can legally demanded equal pay. Birmingham council is already running g a deficit, they cannot afford an unwarranted payrise due to a foolish deal that was brokered THUS the only way forward after this Friday is the strike is back on. The initial strike was never about wages, if labour caves this Friday a future strike will be about wages due to the forced pay inequality...

Two Brummies have constantly told you what this is about. We are the ones here that have to pay for labours incompetent NOT you, we are the ones here that have not had our bins collected NOT you. And still you wont listen. What is your major malfunction


Quote:
making the service 5days-37h instead of 4days-37h+overtime


what do you think overtime is paid in?

ffs smh
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
What is your major malfunction


His religion
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Naib wrote:
sugar wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
sugar wrote:
Id much rather the refuse collection staff were paid a wage they could live on.


But they are, this was never about wages.


how do you know that? were you sitting at the negotiation table?
because it has explicitly be stated time and time again it's about a particular supervisory role being made REDUNDANT.
This position is no longer needed with the new rigs.

The supervisory role had a purpose with open back refuse sack collection, they do not with the Wheely bins that were provided to all of brim to save money (scrapping supervisory role, making the service 5days-37h instead of 4days-37h+overtime) but I have explained that & you chose to dismiss that post... The deal preliminarily reached was that there were no redundancies so the level3 pay workers could stay on the rigs. This will now cause a serious pay dispute as the other workers, doing EXACTLY the same role can legally demanded equal pay. Birmingham council is already running g a deficit, they cannot afford an unwarranted payrise due to a foolish deal that was brokered THUS the only way forward after this Friday is the strike is back on. The initial strike was never about wages, if labour caves this Friday a future strike will be about wages due to the forced pay inequality...

Two Brummies have constantly told you what this is about. We are the ones here that have to pay for labours incompetent NOT you, we are the ones here that have not had our bins collected NOT you. And still you wont listen. What is your major malfunction


Quote:
making the service 5days-37h instead of 4days-37h+overtime


what do you think overtime is paid in?

ffs smh
and that's not what they were striking over and that wasn't what was discussed for the provisional end and as I had already stated, it was unreliable cover and brum council had to pay extra for contract staff

You are a lead statue of oedipus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Naib wrote:
What is your major malfunction


His religion
:lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
and that's not what they were striking over and that wasn't what was discussed for the provisional end and as I had already stated, it was unreliable cover and brum council had to pay extra for contract staff

You are a lead statue of oedipus



yes, that's what the local authority said it was about

the union said something different.

There are two sides of the story, and, here's the kicker, so I'm going to make it in bold, both sides are completely unreliable in industrial disputes unless your at the negotiating table.

Quote:
Unite said that the local authority regarded the dispute as about working patterns, while the union said that it was about safety on the refuse vehicles and threats to the jobs and incomes of already lowly paid workers who could lose up to £5,000-a-year.


http://www.unitetheunion.org/news/talks-on-cards-in-birmingham-bin-dispute/

See this quote above? It's actually completely unreliable. In the same way that your quote above is completely unreliable. Both sides are trying to get public support.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Naib wrote:
and that's not what they were striking over and that wasn't what was discussed for the provisional end and as I had already stated, it was unreliable cover and brum council had to pay extra for contract staff

You are a lead statue of oedipus



yes, that's what the local authority said it was about

the union said something different.

There are two sides of the story, and, here's the kicker, so I'm going to make it in bold, both sides are completely unreliable in industrial disputes unless your at the negotiating table.

Quote:
Unite said that the local authority regarded the dispute as about working patterns, while the union said that it was about safety on the refuse vehicles and threats to the jobs and incomes of already lowly paid workers who could lose up to £5,000-a-year.


http://www.unitetheunion.org/news/talks-on-cards-in-birmingham-bin-dispute/

See this quote above? It's actually completely unreliable. In the same way that your quote above is completely unreliable. Both sides are trying to get public support.



Nice cherry picking.

Quote:


Unite said that the local authority regarded the dispute as about working patterns, while the union said that it was about safety on the refuse vehicles and threats to the jobs and incomes of already lowly paid workers who could lose up to £5,000-a-year.


...


Howard Beckett said: “We have legitimate safety concerns about what the council proposes and are concerned that workers on as little as £21,000-a-year could face a pay cut of up to £5,000, if they are downgraded, which is unacceptable


Oh the difference a paragraph makes. The supervisory role is what the council wants to scrap, make REDUNDANT. If those in supervisory roles want to stay on the rigs they have to be downgraded, a cut, & that happens in all redundancies. There are also other supervisory roles outside of refuse collection.

Here is the thing, one of the great things about how Thatcher broke the union's is they need to ballot and state what the action is over. All this talk, all this huberis is to drum up union support. An added appeal to the weak w.r.t misdirection to get public support

Quote:


Unite members voted by 90 per cent for strike action over proposed job cuts to the city’s waste and refuse service and attempts by council bosses to tear up long standing agreements with the union covering staffing levels and working patterns. The workers also voted by 93 per cent for industrial action short of a strike.



REDUNDANCIES.
This isn't about them wanting more money, this is about change in employment & redundancies.
Remember when you stated they should be paid more & the two Brummies kept stating this isn't about that, remember...

sugar wrote:
They get paid £7000 less than the average full time worker, and the council wants to cut that back further.



sugar wrote:


apparently the job of rubbish collection is socially important. Important enough that you will come to OTW and complain when they are not doing their jobs.

Pay them what they are socially worth.


Again, what is your major malfunction. Two Brummies, the union's have state d it's about redundancy but you keep on going on that it is about pay. Appeal to the weak and the weak have bitten.


Redundancies are bad, they are always bad but don't you dare start spewing you own social justice to make this about what you think it is about, especially when it is clearly, legally defined due to the strike ballot
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And it's back on !

linky


Can we just sack the entire lot of 'em, and put this out to tender ?
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Naib
Watchman
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
And it's back on !

linky


Can we just sack the entire lot of 'em, and put this out to tender ?
put them into a bin and let them fester for a couple of weeks.

Luckily my bins were collected this wednesday so my street isn't a rat hotel anymore...
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Great Britain is a republic, with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king
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flysideways
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Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 153

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The city of Houston picked mine up yesterday, flood and all. The truck only has a driver, who also operates the boom.
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