Gentoo-Women - Take Three

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:16 am Post subject:

ToeiRei,

Full disclosure, I'm a 64 year old male.

Sexism/chauvinism is far from dead. Its both inbred and taught from birth.
Girls are dressed in pink, boys in blue.
Girls play with dolls, boys play war games.
...
Mothers go to mother and toddler groups. House husbands trying to join in with their toddler experience what you describe from the mothers.
I suspect that its reinforced by the mothers husbands (who don't go).

It takes a very determined girl to break into a male dominated field and stay there.
Likewise, the other way round. - Its not a girl only problem in our wider society.

Legislation against sexism/chauvinism only serves to drive it underground, much as Homosexuals were driven underground by the law in the UK.
(Lesbians were not persecuted this way because nobody would explain Lesbianism to Queen Victoria.)

The fix starts at birth, treating boys and girls equally but then it takes 20 years or so to see the effects in IRC.
The hardest part of that is persuading new parents that the stereotypes they were brought up with need to be changed.

I agree that men and women communicate differently and its a problem.
The way I say something rather than what I say seems more important to the women I interact with.
I still don't get it right every time, even face to face. Text only media is much harder.

I agree a separate #gentoo-women would provide a 'safe space' for women but populating it will be difficult until society fixes its gender stereotypes.
If that were to happen it may no longer be needed.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

Zucca · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:41 am Post subject:

ToeiRei · Veteran Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 1191 Location: Austria

Full disclosure: I'm a 36 year old woman, fighting my way through IT since I am able to think back due to having some nerd friends dragging me to university computer clubs when I was 6 for playing pacman. I even participated in kernel development and various other projects but I have to admit, the environment provided - no matter where - is made to drive women away. Dealing with sexism and "women and tech" chauvinism is an every day struggle.

Look at the LKML, look at other male dominated stuff - look how many women are leaving because of the communication problem or because of they feel that they stepped on a man's toes just by their presence.
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devilheart · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:10 am Post subject:

ToeiRei · Veteran Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 1191 Location: Austria

I feel like this thread is going off topic into the direction of "why do we have not many women around" instead of "how can we support the ones being here instead of driving them away"...
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Naib · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Gentoo-Women - Take Three

Naib · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:32 am Post subject:

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:41 am Post subject:

ToeiRei,

"why do we have not many women around"
"how can we support the ones being here instead of driving them away"

are both questions that need to be addressed.

Answering the former may provide some insights to address root causes.
Addressing the latter is a sticking plaster which will stop things getting worse but not reverse the trend.

The answers to both need to come from the women in the Gentoo community.
Those men that are interested can only support.

I did join #gentoo-women briefly ... it was just me and channel server.
chanserv won't show me the flags so I can't see who owns it.

If you are interested in the #gentoo-women IRC channel to revive the project, I can probably organise regaining control.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:47 am Post subject:

Naib,

steveL · Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:02 am Post subject:

ToeiRei · Veteran Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 1191 Location: Austria

1clue · Advocate Joined: 05 Feb 2006 Posts: 2569

FWIW each and every human on the planet was raised with gender bias built-in, and it's not the same thing for every culture. Those of us who have married outside of our culture face this every day, with differences (sometimes subtle, sometimes not) interfering with each person's idea of how the relationship should work. This gender bias is so deep that we have no idea when we make assumptions about genders. My wife assumes things about men that American women don't assume about men, and gets angry when I don't comply to some assumed role that Colombian men all comply with. When we talk about it, she sometimes admits that she hates that quality in Colombian men. But she still gets angry.

How about that?

The same thing I said about my wife applies to me, assuming things about her. We've been married almost 5 years, it's still very much a work in progress and I expect it to be until one of us dies, or longer.

IMO we shouldn't be trying to define what the differences are. We should accept that there are differences, and I for one celebrate those differences. How uninteresting would the world be if we all had the same expectations?

@steveL, Yes there is really a problem. Looking at the IT industry the bell curve of women in the field does not look like the one for men. The number of women staying the long term is much lower than the number of entry-level workers would suggest, when compared to men in the field. As I mentioned before, if you see a woman in IT -- particularly something like programming or networking or [not replacing mice and keyboards] something difficult -- who has been in it a long time, she's probably extremely good at the job. There may be a non-discriminatory reason why fewer women enter into IT, but the ratio we see in the real world is very obviously lower than anyone would expect. The number of women who quit IT after only a year or three indicates that there is a problem.

For all I know I'm part of that problem, but I try not to be. I've trained and worked with a lot of new programmers over the years, and I've tried to make sure everyone had everything they needed to do the job. I've tried especially hard to make sure the women were taken care of. Maybe that's part of the problem?

Re: The atmosphere of many channels can be unwelcoming. Yes, and over the years a whole lot of mailing lists, newsgroups, IRC channels and forums have been abrupt, rude and even hostile to almost anyone. Thankfully not this forum.

Re: How to not be an asshole. I spend a good part of every day pondering this. Some days I think I got it, sort of. Other days I'm 100% sure I don't.

Re: Only women can do that. This is true. But men can support the idea, possibly in more than philosophical terms. The rub is, I have no idea how men can do that.

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NeddySeagoon · Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:37 pm Post subject:

szatox,

Its not that black and white.
There are all sorts of subgroups within that 'majority'.
Individuals don't join the majority by jumping in either - its learned over the course of many years. Think of it as learning to swim. Very few swimmers learn by jumping into the deep end of the pool and just swimming. They start at the shallow end, where they feel safer.

I see Gentoo women in a similar way to learning to swim. Some will stay in the shallow end, others will learn that you only swim in the top 18 inches of water anyway and will move to join the majority.
Its not a 'safe haven' exclusive group, its about building confidence. Change will come too.
With increasing numbers moving into the majority grouping, the norm (in the statistical sense) will move.

There are two problems. Getting the swimming instructors (the core group to kick it off)
Keeping up a stream of learners.

It will take a lifetime to effect that sort of change, for all practical purposes, that's the same as never for most people alive today.
I can remember things from over 50 years ago that were forecast then to never change ... but change is the only thing that's certain.

Stereotypes change too. Examples I can recall would be considered offensive today.
If you want a rich pool of out of date stereotypes, watch the TV series of Monty Python. Viewers under 20 WILL BE offended.
I remember the original broadcasts.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

steveL · Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:06 pm Post subject:

steveL · Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:14 pm Post subject:

szatox · Advocate Joined: 27 Aug 2013 Posts: 3137

SteveL, I'm not blaming the victim. I'm not blaming _anyone_ here, and it's not even a matter of guilt. Every single system follows some rules. Somehow people look at rules of physics, test them, and write them down turning them into laws, and then look at the rules of society, test them, say they are unfair, write laws against those rules, and hope the rules would change.

If we were to double check every single case before making decisions, we would all starve.
Heuristics can fail, but we use them because they are very efficient when they work. We do need generalizations, which results in stereotypes. You can replace their content by providing other people with new experience, but the stereotypes are not going away, because there will always be some experience, and we will always need generalizations.
Hence: if you want people to take female techies seriously, there must be much more female techies than there are now, and they better be really good.

Unfortunately, even those girls brave enough to try becoming techies often lack some useful traits. Say, I was stunned to discover how bad imagination women have. I imagine women are stunned when they discover how bad man are with tracking anniversaries. Of course, they can make up for it in other areas, like putting extra effort into task at hand, but that extra effort often mean they could pick an easier path instead, which brings as back to the start:
You pick some path, and your choice contributes to experience gained by people around you, which in turn either contributes to stereotypes or undermines them.
Unfortunately for minorities of all kinds, those stereotypes make a positive feedback loop. Yes, it is unfair. So is gravity when it breaks your leg. But we don't outlaw gravity, we just struggle against it every morning, then use it to our advantage, and we don't jump out the window. Safe for those few who have put extra effort and now can actually do that.

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:52 pm Post subject:

szatox,

Gravity is a good example. You jump off of a skyscraper, you and the earth fall towards one another.
You don't notice the earth accelerate towards you because its much more massive than you are.
Thus with any minority influencing a majority.

Homework ... do the maths.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.