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Sir Platypus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:37 am    Post subject: New Gentoo Discord Server Reply with quote

A few of us have made a new Gentoo Discord server, because when asked, the owner of the other server refused to add any roles or bots and such. Because we felt that these things and more were necessary for a server to thrive, we made a new one. Our hope is to make this server more active, so that it will aid in keeping the Gentoo community active in a service that is growing more popular all the time. In doing so we hope to help inspire new users, as well as provide a place of support and discussion that is more common among younger people. We are aiming to create a server that can also double as a general community for all to enjoy.
Please join us and feel free to give us your feedback. https://discord.gg/AKMcGgX

So far we are including roles, news RSS feeds, and providing a place for people to post their personal guides and tips. We hope to get feedback for other integrations as well. We would love to reflect the active community that we already are on IRC, and help to get rid of the fear in new users that Gentoo is too hard to bother using. We would especially love it if any Gentoo devs would join and help us to make it an active support community as well as a place of general discussion.
We hope to gather as big a following as possible, so that we can share a flexible communication medium and help to advertise our distribution to others with an easy to join, active community. If everyone who viewed this thread signed up, we would have one of the largest servers a Linux distribution could have.


Last edited by Sir Platypus on Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fturco
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Discord is proprietary. What's wrong with IRC or Matrix? They are both completely free, as in freedom.
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Sir Platypus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I’m sure you are aware, a large number of people, including Gentoo users, already use Discord. It incorporates useful new features such as voice chat, and has support for images, and many other things that IRC does not. It is available free of charge, and many people are already using it. As for it’s being proprietary, I personally along with many others believe in supporting a continuously growing industry, such that programming remains a paying job for those who love to work in the field of computer science. Open source software is a wonderful thing, but I believe in its ability to complement proprietary software, not replace it. I am not trying to replace any existing communication methods with Discord, as there already is a Gentoo Discord server, and Discord would not suffice as an official support medium. I do however want to create an unofficial community where we can entice new users and help the ones we have.
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Maitreya
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Platypus wrote:
As I’m sure you are aware, a large number of people, including Gentoo users, already use Discord.


Sure, don't know many Gentoo users that do that, but sure there is probably _some_

Quote:

It incorporates useful new features such as voice chat, and has support for images, and many other things that IRC does not.


Usually voice is not really a much used feature on chat platforms. Sending of images works fine on irc?

Quote:

It is available free of charge, and many people are already using it.


"Free", I do give them my details.

Quote:

As for it’s being proprietary, I personally along with many others believe in supporting a continuously growing industry, such that programming remains a paying job for those who love to work in the field of computer science.


Cool!

Quote:

Open source software is a wonderful thing, but I believe in its ability to complement proprietary software, not replace it.


"That's like, your opinion man"

Quote:

I am not trying to replace any existing communication methods with Discord, as there already is a Gentoo Discord server, and Discord would not suffice as an official support medium. I do however want to create an unofficial community where we can entice new users and help the ones we have.


You don;t want to replace, but you do want to replace? What is it now?



Honestly, I think you are free to what you want. However take into account rights on images and names.
Would it not better to prove yourself. i.e. set it up, make it successful. And people get convinced anyway.
Because the times we've seen "He I know this cool new thing and I want to do it for Gentoo, because blabla" and them it turn into absolutely nothing.
Splitting the userbase and communication up for just one person's impulsive whim seems the opposite of the proposed "goals"
Sorry for being a sourpuss, but I do honestly mean it: Do it
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gerard27
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maitreya,
++
Gerard.
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The same disk can be used for 32 and 64 bit installs.
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Sir Platypus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do actually know of at least a hundred gentoo users on discord, that may not be a large chunk of the users by any means, but it is still a fair number of people. While it may not be necessary, I am not trying to divide the community, I was posting here simply to make people aware that we exist. And yes, the proprietary thing is my opinion, if you don't believe in using the proprietary software I respect that; we are all entitled to our own beliefs. No, I am not trying to replace IRC, Discord is strictly a casual communication medium that we felt had some potential. For all intents and purposes, I just wanted to let the community know that we are here if you are interested. I'm sorry if you feel that we are splitting up the userbase and communication, I would much rather see nobody join than see that happen, but I hope that it does not come to that. As for proving myself and making it successful, that starts here, in the heart of the Gentoo community. If you really think Linux and Discord do not work together, you must not have seen the Linux Discord server, which has thousands of people, including a lot of Gentoo users. It is very successful and active, and we are just trying to make a subset of that server for this distribution alone. This is not a new, untested, or whimsical idea; it is a proven chat medium with several examples of success already. If all I wanted was a large Discord, then I would not be targeting a specific Linux distribution with it (I'm not the server owner anyway, I was just repping it).

Last edited by Sir Platypus on Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1clue
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why the negativity?

The guy is just saying he has a discord server aimed at Gentoo users. I'm old school so I had to look up what discord is, and I most likely won't join or use it due to lack of interest. But I don't understand why people need to throw negativity into this type of announcement. I remember the same thing back when forum software came out instead of mailing lists or newsgroups, but people flocked to forums once they figured out what it was all about. And I remember more than one time when an unofficial forum turned into the official one because the added features and management were that much better than the official one.

@OP: Congratulations on your server, thank you for hosting it and I hope you get enough users to justify the installation.
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Sir Platypus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much, I was started to wonder how long it would be before someone supported the idea. I certainly understand the personal lack of interest, I simply wanted to appeal to those that already use Discord. But yes, I was simply putting out a notice, whatever happens next is up to the community. We hope to gain some traction in the near future, but time will tell.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Platypus,

https://discordapp.com/terms wrote:
By uploading, distributing, transmitting or otherwise using Your Content with the Service, you grant to us a perpetual, nonexclusive, transferable, royalty-free, sublicensable, and worldwide license to use, host, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, and display Your Content in connection with operating and providing the Service.


Just "No". GPL, Creative Commons ... but that's like we can do what we want with your content.

I don't think you can use "Larry the Cow" under such terms.
You need to review the licence for "Larry the Cow". Its one of the creative commons ones.

-- edit --

I won't be joining but I wish you well with your attempt to help with Gentoo in particular and by inference, open source in general.
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Sir Platypus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we are not allowed to use Larry the Cow, I understand completely. I will see to replacing it ASAP.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Platypus,

You are permitted to use Larry the Cow under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 license.

There is a lot of reading there.
Gentoo uses Larry the Cow under the same licence.

Is the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 license compatible with discords terms?
Do you comply with the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 license?

I am not a lawyer and I am not providing advice of any sort.
I'm pointing out your obligations when you use licenced material.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Why the negativity?

The guy is just saying he has a discord server aimed at Gentoo users. I'm old school so I had to look up what discord is, and I most likely won't join or use it due to lack of interest.

The negativity is because it's this decade's version of the 90s "join my AOL chat/ezboards forum/IRC server" spam. Nothing new, except the host now also does dragnet metadata harvesting.
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KWCZE
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see that you"re giving hard time to my administrator :lol:

I used IRC for a long time and the main issue i had with it is that there are multiple people having multiple conversations which feels really chaotic and uneffective to me.
That's why we decided to make this Discord server. Based on my first hand experience there are multiple text/voice channels for everyone to use with better text formatting options and with the ability to use bots to share news about Gentoo. Also based on my experience i understand that most of the new gentoo users feel more confortable using discord for they're learning.

I would recommend you to at least try it. The server was created yesterday and we already have 14 users there who seem to to like it so far and we do our best effort to improve that server. With the help of experienced gentoo user i believe that our effort is only beneficial to gentoo community in general. 8)

Also about the usage of Larry the cow that NeddySeagoon is concerned about i understandt the its under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 which based on informations from the official wiki is "You are free to share (copy, distribute and transmit the work) and remix (adapt the work), but you must attribute the author and distribute any derivative works you create under a similar license." The author is included in metadata of this artwork and we didn't find it neccesary to include on the server since every gentoo linux user knows the author of this artwork based on my knowledge. If it really that important for you we will gladly include it on the server too :) Also i'm looking forward if you can provide any proof that we're missusing this artwork if its proven that we are then we will remove it from our server and resolve this issue it with the author after.

here's invite link for those who are interested :twisted: https://discord.gg/tsqaX4H
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another gratuitous "invite link" when there's already one in the first post? Not doing a very good job convincing us this isn't spam.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KWCZE,

At first glance, it looks like Discords terms of service and the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 may be incompatible.
Larry the Cow does not belong to Gentoo. Its for all users of licenced material to assure themselves that they use such material correctly.

The official wiki links to the licence. You need to read and understand it in full, along with Discords terms of service.
The summary on the wiki is just that. A summary.
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Hund
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get that people like different things and all that, but what I don't understand is why people are okay with unethical terms of services like that? Why not host your own Matrix server? I'm not a fan of that either, but to my understanding it's a good alternative to Discord that's open source, decentralized and federated.
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KWCZE
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. : The mensioned link is invalid, because we didn't realize that if we make another it will void the old one. So i resent it. I have no intention to force you to join or spam.. 8O

NeddySeagoon: Based on my experience as student of law in czech republic i understand that discord can't use larry the cow artwork it for they're marketing or to use it as they're own. And even if they did it would compile with the CC licence since it has author's name in metadata. Not sure about the US law to me it always seems chaotic and irracional so we recreate it into fan art just to be sure. :wink:

Hund: Can you clarify unethical terms of use? I understand that there ware rumors about discord selling user data and as a reaction on that discord updated it's terms of use to specify third party like Google analitics and third party analitic firm that they use to gather informations to improve user experience which seems ethical. There is still the thing that CEO had simmilar service before that was used strictly to sell userdata, but they clarified that its no longer a case: https://twitter.com/discordapp/status/1023767938623569920 and since i coudn't find any other resource that proves it i have no problems with it.

Also there was a bug in the discord system that allows third party to access user data before GDPR. The bug was fixed and its no longer possible to access those data this way and personally i don't know about any other way to do so.
I understand that there ware simmilar issues on IRC like showing user IP to everyone, allowing third party to access private chat, etc.. which is not possible on discord which feels more secure to use for me. :?
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Hu
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a few quick Google searches, I don't see any way to get transcripts of past Discord activity. If so, that to me is a major strike against using it, since any solution you find is lost once the immediate participants sign off. In contrast, forum posts live almost indefinitely, are indexable in the form originally posted, and somewhat often seem to help people well after the thread has gone idle.
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KWCZE
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu: There is a website https://discordleaks.unicornriot.ninja/ which leaked a lot of data on discord using this bug which as far as i know wasn't even discord's fault is was a case of encription from it's hosting. Now there are some leaks that are made by members of mensioned website which are gathered by joining a server with a bot which resents conversations. I'm not aware of any way or exploit that it able to get a transcript of private chat and i understand that discord takes that very seriously which is why am i using it. If you can provide any exploit that would be able to do so you can submit it for bug bounty and it would be fixed as fast as possible by discord.

Also on other discord server those bugs are hunted by the linux community there are already around 2.000 linux users using discord including around 150 gentoo users and most of discord"s client is also open-source.

About the IRC there seems to be multiple issues revealed by quick google search https://www.google.com/search?ei=8P9kW8zjNo75wQLV8KvIDw&q=IRC+leak&oq=IRC+leak&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1264.1264.0.1873.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.q245ii9HFbI

And when i join any IRC channel it broadcast my IP adress to the world which is the main reason for me not to use it..
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Another gratuitous "invite link" when there's already one in the first post? Not doing a very good job convincing us this isn't spam.
By this point, NeddySeagoon, Hu, and I have all read the topic without sending it somewhere that casual spiders will not find it. All that means is that none of us have yet had the inclination to do so, and at least three of us have considered it, it does not mean that one of us, or someone else entirely, will not if and when it seems appropriate.

KWCZE wrote:
And when i join any IRC channel it broadcast my IP adress to the world which is the main reason for me not to use it..
https://freenode.net/kb/answer/cloaks
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KWCZE
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i understand that i can request a "cloak" to protect my privacy on freenode which is a permission that it not available for everyone and is not set by default.. :?
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KWCZE wrote:
i understand that i can request a "cloak" to protect my privacy on freenode which is a permission that it not available for everyone and is not set by default.. :?
Unless you are referring to gateway cloaks, they are expressly available to anyone by way of unaffiliated cloaks.
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1clue
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
1clue wrote:
Why the negativity?

The guy is just saying he has a discord server aimed at Gentoo users. I'm old school so I had to look up what discord is, and I most likely won't join or use it due to lack of interest.

The negativity is because it's this decade's version of the 90s "join my AOL chat/ezboards forum/IRC server" spam. Nothing new, except the host now also does dragnet metadata harvesting.


Um. Google already uses gentoo forums to harvest metadata. So what? There's nothing you can really do to stop it these days, even if it's open source on the server.
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Hu
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KWCZE wrote:
Hu: There is a website ...
You got my point completely backward. These forums are a public resource. Threads posted here are public by default, and disappear only when deemed necessary by the administration (due to rules violations; even then, if parts of the thread were constructive, those may be salvaged and only the violating posts hidden). As such, any constructive solutions found through exchanges on the forum remain available for other unrelated users to find and read later, which may solve the later users' problem without requiring them to ask a new question and us to post a new answer. I did not find any indication that Discord offers a similar benefit to future help-seekers, since there appears to be no supported way for the public to anonymously obtain transcripts of all useful sessions.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
Another gratuitous "invite link" when there's already one in the first post? Not doing a very good job convincing us this isn't spam.
By this point, NeddySeagoon, Hu, and I have all read the topic without sending it somewhere that casual spiders will not find it. All that means is that none of us have yet had the inclination to do so, and at least three of us have considered it, it does not mean that one of us, or someone else entirely, will not if and when it seems appropriate.

Thank you… I needed telling to shut up. I'll leave this alone.
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