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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | I really don't know / understand what y'all problem is with systemd. i really don't. i'm not trying to be thick or sarcastic. I just don't get it. It's C code that you can read for yourself. Where is the mistrust coming from? Why do people want to get stuck in the 80's with IPC? I honestly don't get it. |
| saellaven wrote: | | Go through and read all the systemd threads here. We've spent hundreds of hours laying out the faults and it's gets tiring to have to restate them every time some new systemd crusader comes to repeat the same "hurr, you guys just don't understand it, you're too stuck in the past and don't want to learn anything new." [...] Basically, educate yourself before you say you don't understand what our problem with systemd is. |
saellaven ... this same individual has been at this "stuck in the 80's" (only previously it was "the 70's") shtick for a few years now, see here (2016), or more recently June (2018). It's clear "reading" doesn't help.
best ... khay |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Axl, for starters go check a few systemd unit files on your system ... I bet a few bootstrap a shell script.
Ini files are great if you just want to launch a single program and bake a load of things into the program. Sometimes it's better to put those into a supportive script.
However... The onus is on the application maker to create the init (be it the unit file or unit+script) as oppose to the distro maintainers.
Secondly what is wrong with people using what they want? Some people want a hassle-free distro "that just works" and maybe Ubuntu/mint does that and that's great... Those people really don't care how it works as long as it does. Some people want a bit more flexibility and arch/Gentoo offer this.
As long as OpenRC offers what I need I'll use it. When it doesn't I'll find an alternative that might be systemd.
As long as Gentoo offers what I want (or I am still interested in tinkering) I'll stay otherwise the likes of mint and co 'just work's.
The choice is an individual one; we all chose to use Linux in the first place and it really is of noone else's concern what someone chose or why
Do you acknowledge that you can have a systemd free system?
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | Any of you open rc folks want to post how many custom files they have in /etc/portage to obtain that systemd free system?
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| axl wrote: | so.. you could technically install gentoo with systemd useflag and still not use systemd. technically.
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| axl wrote: | | the useflag "openrc" doesn't guaranty you an openrc distro. using the official portage tree you have to know some stuff to make an openrc distro out of gentoo. |
all of them are your quotes, i'm sure more exists ; any gentoo user should be able to answer them, so base on these quotes, i'm asking you: are you really a gentoo user? |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | the useflag "openrc" doesn't guaranty you an openrc distro. using the official portage tree you have to know some stuff to make an openrc distro out of gentoo. |
| krinn wrote: | | all of them are your quotes, i'm sure more exists ; any gentoo user should be able to answer them, so base on these quotes, i'm asking you: are you really a gentoo user? |
krinn ... questions? .... that's soooo 80's inter-personal communication ;)
| Code: | % ps -p 1 -o comm=
init
% grep sysinit /etc/inittab
si::sysinit:/sbin/rc sysinit
% eix --only-names --exact --installed-with-use openrc ; echo $?
1
% euse -i openrc
global use flags (searching: openrc)
************************************************************
no matching entries found
local use flags (searching: openrc)
************************************************************
no matching entries found |
best ... khay |
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berferd
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Yamakuzure wrote: | | I bet that this question is important. For me, "systemd-free" simply means, that sys-apps/systemd is not installed. But I do not care if some packages install unit files to support a possible systemd installation. And I am running both eudev and elogind. Thus rip-offs of systemd-udev and systemd-logind. |
The problem with allowing packages to install unnecessary files, is that those files may surreptitiously or accidentally become necessary and you won't know until it is too late.
Indeed this has happened to me with tmpfiles. Now I think I'd have to maintain a fork of baselayout in order to get rid of this longest step in my boot process. I'm not sure 'cause I frankly didn't spend much time on it. My patience is at an end. That mess plus all the hoops I'd have to jump through so as not to stupidly re-compile everything on my system to support a feature I don't want have convinced me to move away from Linux altogether. |
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berferd
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | I'll make them public if there is more interest than the five other people that I've counted. |
I'd give it a whirl if you make it public. On a virtual machine just to piss some folks from this forum off... I kid, I kid. |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1144
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | Why install something you aren't going to need or use? It's just another vector for attacks. |
the proposition that i was making is that you could keep systemd as a useflag and just boot /sbin/init via kernelflag or whatever. why? well, as a start to let everything compile without having to have weird excludes, masks, blocks or whatever else. YOU CAN have inert code.
| saellaven wrote: | | My desktop works... |
no offense but lost interest. I I I.
| saellaven wrote: | | If you or your users need someone to hold their hand, then you do. Myself and my users don't, so why should I cripple us? |
be serious. you dont have any users. admins dont get attached to their users. that's a dead giveaway.
| saellaven wrote: | | What makes you think that we want to emulate systemd in the first place? We've spent years detailing different aspects of systemd that we not only find technically unsound, but outright harmful and dangerous. Don't think that our opposition to systemd is based out of simple comfort/familiarity with openrc or sysvinit - those of us you're arguing with probably know system engineering better than you do. Most of us have decades of experience with UNIX, POSIX, shell scripting, C, etc. |
yet somehow i'm comfortable thinking to myself that 80% of you are just repeating what other competent people have said, and the other 20% just hate microsoft and are set in their ways. sorry. didn't mean to insult anyone. especially the 20%. even though that is generous. i wonder how many of the openrc competent people are really willing to associate themselves with the other 80% that just want attention.
| saellaven wrote: | | As the saying goes, those whom don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. |
i've been using linux since the 90's. have any idea how many times i heard that line? in 20 years? yet u're not using kernel 2.0 from 20 years ago so move on. so many people talking about unix as is their own. unics ran on very different machines. and it was very very different from your linux. but whatever...
| saellaven wrote: | | Correction - everyone moved to Microsoft, particularly on the desktop. Linux still has roughly the same market share of the desktop as it did pre-systemd. Regardless, popularity isn't indicative of quality. |
moved to microsoft? dead giveaway right there.
| saellaven wrote: | | Likewise, homogeneity is a WEAKNESS when it comes to security. If all of the routers from a specific brand share the same weakness (say, a factory backdoor password), all of those routers can be trivially hacked. If systemd has a security flaw that allows privilege escalation by manipulating PID1, every systemd based distro is possibly exposed. Diversity is a GOOD thing when it comes to security, as it limiting the attack surface (arguably systemd's biggest weakness is the lack of coherent design combined with owning PID1, poorly implementing lots of functionality that belongs in other packages (look at the DNS bugs in it), and constantly rewriting or adding more large chunks of code, so nobody can really be sure what any version is doing - it's alpha quality at best). See also the Pwnie award systemd "won". |
second giveaway. and misinformation. just because systemd restricts stuff from the root, it doesn't automatically means it gives it away to microsoft... or to hackers. it just restricts stupid users from doing stupid things. dont like what systemd is doing boot with init=/bin/sh.
everything you just said about systemd, in my humble opinion, if you want to believe me, only shows how little u know about it.
| saellaven wrote: | | This just in. Gentoo gives you the freedom to do what you want with your system (at least when tyrannical devs aren't trying to force their choices on you), including the freedom to make mistakes and, most importantly, the freedom to learn. That said, I didn't have to do anything to make Gentoo an openrc system - everything works and all I did was block systemd to make sure a dev didn't try to force their opinions on me. I choose not to use GNOME 3 - there are literally dozens of other window managers in portage that someone might want instead of GNOME 3. |
cool. good for you 
| saellaven wrote: | | The question is, if you're so happy with the RedHat base system - systemd, GNOME 3, etc, why are YOU using Gentoo instead of RedHat, Fedora, or one of it's near clones like Debian? The entire point of systemd was to standardize the Linux desktop on systemd because RH couldn't pwn Linus and the kernel. The idea was everyone talks to systemd and systemd talks to the kernel. The entire purpose was to usurp control so that RedHat could monopolize and monetize Linux support. Why even have any other distros if RedHat's are the only ones that matter? |
there is no one named redhat in this thread. I don't know how to relate to what you are saying. it's open source. free source. how did they manage to put fud on top of opensource for christ sake!?
| saellaven wrote: | | Most packages don't hard depend on systemd. Instead, they have a soft preference which favors systemd because of the way that certain devs try to nudge you to do it their way. Some packages have tried to force users into systemd just because the maintainer wants to force systemd on people - a simple addition for a USE flag makes it go away. Sometimes, there's a bump which forces systemd but gets revised because the force was "an oversight" - it's happened enough that I don't believe it is simple coincidence, but I'm sure plenty of people have unwittingly switched to systemd, or at least stopped fighting it and let it take over, since they consistently "break" it in the favor of systemd. |
k. where are hillary's emails. send her to jail. I am wasting my patience.
| saellaven wrote: | | Want one? Tell systemd to fix NFS. To them, it's WONTFIX NOTABUG. I don't have any problems with my NFS mounts though. |
mine works. what is the problem with yours?
| saellaven wrote: | Go through and read all the systemd threads here. We've spent hundreds of hours laying out the faults and it's gets tiring to have to restate them every time some new systemd crusader comes to repeat the same "hurr, you guys just don't understand it, you're too stuck in the past and don't want to learn anything new." We know C and we know what a mess the systemd code is. We know UNIX and we stick to the principle of "do one thing and do it well." We've discussed how the kernel has had great, modern IPC support for a decade that the systemd devs either chose to ignore, couldn't bother to investigate, didn't understand, or intentionally chose to reinvent poorly because NIH syndrome. Basically, educate yourself before you say you don't understand what our problem with systemd is.
Furthermore, openrc has repeatedly, intentionally been crippled by a systemd dev that is intentionally wanting to harm it's functionality so it isn't any better than systemd. That same dev got on the Council, where he pushed the Council to approve the breaking of sep-usr, deliberately ignored patches that ensured continued support for sep-usr, etc, all because poettering decided he didn't see a use case for sep-usr. Him and his friends also took over a number of other committes to run protection for them. So, they've actively been waging a war on us. I, personally, have always supported the choice of systemd for those that want it, and only became involved because of the abuse of him and a handful of others that would like to see systemd as the only choice. |
openrc is a collection of shell scripts. it was prone to disasters from the get go. systemd aint much better. only a little better. but it is better. it's not owned by the evil corporation. it's open source. and this is my LAST systemd related post on the internet. EVER. |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | saellaven wrote: | | Why install something you aren't going to need or use? It's just another vector for attacks. |
the proposition that i was making is that you could keep systemd as a useflag and just boot /sbin/init via kernelflag or whatever. why? well, as a start to let everything compile without having to have weird excludes, masks, blocks or whatever else. YOU CAN have inert code.
| saellaven wrote: | | My desktop works... |
no offense but lost interest. I I I. |
In other words, you're not here to have a reasonable discussion in good faith, you're here to troll.
| axl wrote: |
| saellaven wrote: | | If you or your users need someone to hold their hand, then you do. Myself and my users don't, so why should I cripple us? |
be serious. you dont have any users. admins dont get attached to their users. that's a dead giveaway. |
Again, you're here to troll. I have family members and employees using Linux desktops that I maintain.
| axl wrote: |
| saellaven wrote: | | What makes you think that we want to emulate systemd in the first place? We've spent years detailing different aspects of systemd that we not only find technically unsound, but outright harmful and dangerous. Don't think that our opposition to systemd is based out of simple comfort/familiarity with openrc or sysvinit - those of us you're arguing with probably know system engineering better than you do. Most of us have decades of experience with UNIX, POSIX, shell scripting, C, etc. |
yet somehow i'm comfortable thinking to myself that 80% of you are just repeating what other competent people have said, and the other 20% just hate microsoft and are set in their ways. sorry. didn't mean to insult anyone. especially the 20%. even though that is generous. i wonder how many of the openrc competent people are really willing to associate themselves with the other 80% that just want attention.
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again, more trolling.
| axl wrote: |
| saellaven wrote: | | As the saying goes, those whom don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. |
i've been using linux since the 90's. have any idea how many times i heard that line? in 20 years? yet u're not using kernel 2.0 from 20 years ago so move on. so many people talking about unix as is their own. unics ran on very different machines. and it was very very different from your linux. but whatever... |
Hey, go figure. I use new technology where it makes sense. I don't believe systemd advances the abilities of my system any and it comes with a huge number of detriments. So, I guess there goes the argument that we don't use systemd because we're scared of new/different things.
| axl wrote: |
| saellaven wrote: | | Correction - everyone moved to Microsoft, particularly on the desktop. Linux still has roughly the same market share of the desktop as it did pre-systemd. Regardless, popularity isn't indicative of quality. |
moved to microsoft? dead giveaway right there. |
YOU made the argument that popularity is indicative of the best technology. systemd loses in a landslide to Microsoft according to your methodology.
| axl wrote: |
| saellaven wrote: | | Likewise, homogeneity is a WEAKNESS when it comes to security. If all of the routers from a specific brand share the same weakness (say, a factory backdoor password), all of those routers can be trivially hacked. If systemd has a security flaw that allows privilege escalation by manipulating PID1, every systemd based distro is possibly exposed. Diversity is a GOOD thing when it comes to security, as it limiting the attack surface (arguably systemd's biggest weakness is the lack of coherent design combined with owning PID1, poorly implementing lots of functionality that belongs in other packages (look at the DNS bugs in it), and constantly rewriting or adding more large chunks of code, so nobody can really be sure what any version is doing - it's alpha quality at best). See also the Pwnie award systemd "won". |
second giveaway. and misinformation. just because systemd restricts stuff from the root, it doesn't automatically means it gives it away to microsoft... or to hackers. it just restricts stupid users from doing stupid things. dont like what systemd is doing boot with init=/bin/sh.
everything you just said about systemd, in my humble opinion, if you want to believe me, only shows how little u know about it. |
Again, actually read the threads where we've discussed this thoroughly in the past. Your participation here is disingenuous.
And, for that matter, where did I mention Microsoft in that paragraph? and what exactly do you mean by "systemd restricts stuff from the root?" because I think you're the one that doesn't understand what we're talking about.
| axl wrote: | | saellaven wrote: | | The question is, if you're so happy with the RedHat base system - systemd, GNOME 3, etc, why are YOU using Gentoo instead of RedHat, Fedora, or one of it's near clones like Debian? The entire point of systemd was to standardize the Linux desktop on systemd because RH couldn't pwn Linus and the kernel. The idea was everyone talks to systemd and systemd talks to the kernel. The entire purpose was to usurp control so that RedHat could monopolize and monetize Linux support. Why even have any other distros if RedHat's are the only ones that matter? |
there is no one named redhat in this thread. I don't know how to relate to what you are saying. it's open source. free source. how did they manage to put fud on top of opensource for christ sake!? |
RedHat IS systemd for all intents and purposes. They're the ones that funded it, used their influence on other projects like GNOME to get them to depend on it, and used their own staff to infiltrate Debian to get them to abandon choices other than systemd. Go read up on the history of systemd. As I've said, educate yourself. Of course, you're not here to do that, you're here to troll.
| axl wrote: |
| saellaven wrote: | | Most packages don't hard depend on systemd. Instead, they have a soft preference which favors systemd because of the way that certain devs try to nudge you to do it their way. Some packages have tried to force users into systemd just because the maintainer wants to force systemd on people - a simple addition for a USE flag makes it go away. Sometimes, there's a bump which forces systemd but gets revised because the force was "an oversight" - it's happened enough that I don't believe it is simple coincidence, but I'm sure plenty of people have unwittingly switched to systemd, or at least stopped fighting it and let it take over, since they consistently "break" it in the favor of systemd. |
k. where are hillary's emails. send her to jail. I am wasting my patience. |
The entire history of WilliamH's attack on openrc is documented and in the open and, surprise, referenced in the threads that predate this one.
| axl wrote: |
| saellaven wrote: | | Want one? Tell systemd to fix NFS. To them, it's WONTFIX NOTABUG. I don't have any problems with my NFS mounts though. |
mine works. what is the problem with yours? |
_I_ don't have a problem because I don't use broken software... but you might want to talk to the people that use systemd that DO have a problem that the systemd devs refuse to acknowledge because they don't know how to, or, at a minimum, they don't see a need to, fix it. Remember, you were the one that wanted an example.
| axl wrote: |
openrc is a collection of shell scripts. it was prone to disasters from the get go. systemd aint much better. only a little better. but it is better. it's not owned by the evil corporation. it's open source. and this is my LAST systemd related post on the internet. EVER. |
Until the next time you're itching to troll us... |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1144
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:45 am Post subject: |
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You would think that you would allow someone to drop a subject when it's clearly not working. But since you cannot allow me to just drop it and move to something else, I'll say this: there was one post today that irked me beyond belief. I thought the original poster is terribly entitled.
{Censored my own link. don't want extra grief}
What I read is: "this sux. this i don't like. this should be changed. but i am not the one to do it. devs should do that for me."
For what is worth, I appreciate folks who can say: "I don't have a broken system. It's according to MY specifications. this is what i did. here's my code if you want to replicate my results". The competence of the person who makes those claims takes care of everything else.
BUT, and this is a big big but. Gentoo is NOT such as it is, an openrc distro. I admit u can turn into one, but the portage tree is not an openrc friendly tree. Such as it is. As you all complain, portage tree, such as it is, pulls a lot of systemd. And if it does you have to use your competence to push it out. right?
And even further, I dont think gentoo devs should be forced to work for those modifications for anyone just because those people feel entitled to those things. If you want systemd out of your life... first you have to know how to do it. If it's doable at all.
It seems to me like that's simply not going to happen. Once debian chose systemd the game was over. And that was years ago. Now it is too late to force anyone distro to support your habits and preferences. Linux as a whole is moving toward a more standardized way of being. Distro are more and more compatible with each other and NEW users (u know, not u gurus) flock more and more to linux. Gentoo, as far as i can tell about the devs and the council, want to go in that direction too. The only impediment as far as i can see are just a bunch of people.
And ultimately, one of my points was that is not about that bunch of people that have the technical capability to actually do that stuff. It's about the people that take that competence and that idea and run with it creating multiple stories that go far from the truth.
Here, not insulting you. Not calling you anything. Just my thoughts. Nothing I said can be considered scientific proof, but I don't think i veered off too much from the issue. And again, I would very much like to drop this. Others can go on in debating or whatever, but I'm looking for a civil way out.
If my points are not understood or they don't matter to certain people, that's fine. I'm ready to just drop it. But you're message doesn't touch on anything other then insults (troll troll, redhat bad, no choices - coz incompetence, entitlement - i am owned that stuff, yet I don't need it coz I'm perfect and my machines are perfect).
My points are: competence beats any distro, linux is changing as a whole and all distro's finally agree on something which is good for the users, and finally gentoo should at least in the official tree keep up with everyone else and should not be the only oddity that supports openrc out of the box with huge efforts on the part of the devs. No other distro did that to their devs.
Please do not insult me again. |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| There still is Funtoo, systemd-free. |
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axl
Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 1144
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | There still is Funtoo, systemd-free. |
I love daniel robbins but funtoo is not on any map. if it were, people would be talking about funtoo as a distro of choice for openrc. yet what distro most people think of as an openrc distro? |
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Yamakuzure
Advocate
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2282
Location: Adendorf, Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Fitzcarraldo wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | | Fitzcarraldo wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | | I don't run elogind as I run neither kde, gnome or any other DE that needs it. |
I have KDE on two laptops running Gentoo, and both use ConsoleKit, not elogind. Unless something is about to change regarding KDE requirements in Gentoo, KDE does not need elogind. |
I was under the impression that kde was using systemd/elogind as a login mechanism, thanks for that correction. |
Mind you, elogind is required if using KDE with Wayland in a non-systemd Gentoo installation. And guess who develops Wayland... Yep, it's another freedesktop.org project. |
And power management. On a laptop where you want to suspend/hibernate as a user, you need systemd-login/elogind.
Alternatively you can still suspend using the console, of course...
One important thing that always irritates me a bit: There is (almost) no dependency on systemd. Packages depend on either systemd-udev, systemd-logind, or both. I have once seen a package (forgot which), that (believe it or not) depended on systemd-journald, but that's it. So 99.9% of all "systemd"-dependencies are already covered by eudev and elogind.
There is only one true dependency on sytemd: Running user sessions (USE="user-session" (bluez, dbus)) needs systemd running the show. But that's it. And if you do not know what that is, you most probably don't need it anyway.
_________________
Important German:- "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
- "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
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Shamus397
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 218
Location: Ur-th
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | My points are: competence beats any distro, linux is changing as a whole and all distro's finally agree on something which is good for the users, and finally gentoo should at least in the official tree keep up with everyone else and should not be the only oddity that supports openrc out of the box with huge efforts on the part of the devs. No other distro did that to their devs. |
What a huge pile a baloney. Your bald assertion that systemd is "something which is good for the users" is completely unsubstantiated and frankly, a load of BS. You should do some research and get your facts straight, as Gentoo is not the only distro out there that supports OpenRC by default. Your other bald assertion that supporting OpenRC requiring "huge efforts on the part of the devs" is again, completely unsubstantiated and another load of BS that you pulled straight of out your backside.
| axl wrote: | | Please do not insult me again. |
Yet you're the one coming in this thread and telling people that they're wrong and that they should just embrace systemd because 'systemd won, get over it'—that's pretty damned insulting. Especially when you haven't done even the slightest bit of research into the issue. So why are you here again, when it's clear that you have nothing to offer to the thread but the same tired old arguments about why everyone who hasn't embraced systemd is a bunch of fearful, backwards looking Luddites?
Do us all a favor and either educate yourself on the matter or get lost. |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: |
What I read is: "this sux. this i don't like. this should be changed. but i am not the one to do it. devs should do that for me."
For what is worth, I appreciate folks who can say: "I don't have a broken system. It's according to MY specifications. this is what i did. here's my code if you want to replicate my results". The competence of the person who makes those claims takes care of everything else.
BUT, and this is a big big but. Gentoo is NOT such as it is, an openrc distro. I admit u can turn into one, but the portage tree is not an openrc friendly tree. Such as it is. As you all complain, portage tree, such as it is, pulls a lot of systemd. And if it does you have to use your competence to push it out. right?
And even further, I dont think gentoo devs should be forced to work for those modifications for anyone just because those people feel entitled to those things. If you want systemd out of your life... first you have to know how to do it. If it's doable at all.
(snip)
And ultimately, one of my points was that is not about that bunch of people that have the technical capability to actually do that stuff. It's about the people that take that competence and that idea and run with it creating multiple stories that go far from the truth. |
We've produced, tested, and maintained the patches... upstream gentoo refuses to accept them. For one example in particular, williamh's refusal to accept the sep-usr patches because his goal is to cripple openrc. He knows they exist, but he chose to ignore them when he went to his fellow Council members to demand dropping support for sep-usr.
So, what's your next uninformed argument? |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6097
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | For one example in particular, williamh's refusal to accept the sep-usr patches because his goal is to cripple openrc. |
Practically everything that has been "done to" openrc since version 0.11 or so has been done with the express purpose of making openrc resemble the way sys-d does things. This was even before sys-d had gained any traction outside of RH itself. It's sad that Hubbs has maintained his position of dictatorship over openrc even until now given his track record of trying to destroy it, little by little. Perhaps a fork should be thought about, rather than patches to the code.
Re. axl, whether you want to consider him an agent-provocateur or a simple troll, the best way to handle him is just ignore him.
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PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| axl wrote: | | BUT, and this is a big big but. Gentoo is NOT such as it is, an openrc distro. I admit u can turn into one, but the portage tree is not an openrc friendly tree. |
Your lack of knowledge of that distro is so huge ; i didn't get my answer, but you're pilling up clues. |
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Fitzcarraldo
Advocate
Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Posts: 2034
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Yamakuzure wrote: | | Fitzcarraldo wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | | Fitzcarraldo wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: | | I don't run elogind as I run neither kde, gnome or any other DE that needs it. |
I have KDE on two laptops running Gentoo, and both use ConsoleKit, not elogind. Unless something is about to change regarding KDE requirements in Gentoo, KDE does not need elogind. |
I was under the impression that kde was using systemd/elogind as a login mechanism, thanks for that correction. |
Mind you, elogind is required if using KDE with Wayland in a non-systemd Gentoo installation. And guess who develops Wayland... Yep, it's another freedesktop.org project. |
And power management. On a laptop where you want to suspend/hibernate as a user, you need systemd-login/elogind. |
That is incorrect. You do not need systemd-logind or elogind. I can both suspend and hibernate from the KDE Plasma 5 Application Launcher, and from the KDE Desktop (right-click menu), and from the LightDM GTK+ Greeter from my laptop running Gentoo with X Windows, OpenRC and ConsoleKit. No systemd-logind or elogind are installed on this machine:
| Code: | fitzcarraldo@clevow230ss ~ $ eix -I elogind
No matches found |
| Code: | fitzcarraldo@clevow230ss ~ $ eix -I consolekit
[I] sys-auth/consolekit
Available versions: 0.4.6 1.1.0-r1 1.1.2 1.2.0 ~1.2.1 **9999 {acl cgroups debug doc evdev pam pm-utils policykit selinux systemd-units test udev KERNEL="linux"}
Installed versions: 1.2.0(07:45:15 18/05/18)(acl pam pm-utils policykit udev -cgroups -debug -doc -evdev -selinux -test KERNEL="linux")
Homepage: https://github.com/ConsoleKit2/ConsoleKit2 https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/ConsoleKit
Description: Framework for defining and tracking users, login sessions and seats |
| Code: | fitzcarraldo@clevow230ss ~ $ eix -I openrc
[I] sys-apps/openrc
Available versions: 0.34.11 ~0.35.5 ~0.36 ~0.37 ~0.38.1 **9999 {audit debug ncurses +netifrc newnet pam prefix selinux static-libs unicode KERNEL="FreeBSD linux"}
Installed versions: 0.34.11(18:57:55 01/12/17)(ncurses netifrc pam unicode -audit -debug -newnet -prefix -selinux -static-libs KERNEL="linux -FreeBSD")
Homepage: https://github.com/openrc/openrc/
Description: OpenRC manages the services, startup and shutdown of a host |
| Code: | fitzcarraldo@clevow230ss ~ $ eix -I systemd
No matches found |
| Code: | fitzcarraldo@clevow230ss ~ $ eix -I upower
[I] sys-power/upower
Available versions: 0.99.5(0/3) ~0.99.7(0/3) {doc +introspection ios selinux KERNEL="FreeBSD linux"}
Installed versions: 0.99.5(06:21:14 18/05/18)(introspection -doc -ios -selinux KERNEL="linux -FreeBSD")
Homepage: https://upower.freedesktop.org/
Description: D-Bus abstraction for enumerating power devices, querying history and statistics |
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Clevo W230SS: amd64, VIDEO_CARDS="intel modesetting nvidia".
Compal NBLB2: ~amd64, xf86-video-ati. Dual boot Win 7 Pro 64-bit.
OpenRC udev elogind & KDE on both.
Fitzcarraldo's blog |
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Fitzcarraldo
Advocate
Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Posts: 2034
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Shamus397 wrote: | | axl wrote: | | My points are: competence beats any distro, linux is changing as a whole and all distro's finally agree on something which is good for the users, and finally gentoo should at least in the official tree keep up with everyone else and should not be the only oddity that supports openrc out of the box with huge efforts on the part of the devs. No other distro did that to their devs. |
What a huge pile a baloney. Your bald assertion that systemd is "something which is good for the users" is completely unsubstantiated and frankly, a load of BS. |
I agree. In addition to using Gentoo with OpenRC/ConsoleKit, I use various distributions with systemd (mainly Sabayon, Ubuntu and Lubuntu). I have more hassle with systemd. For example, I spent days trying to get systemd on my family's PC to launch a backup script at shutdown and wait for the script to run to completion before halting and powering down the PC. There are umpteen posts on the Web asking how to run a script at shutdown and/or reboot in distributions that use systemd. The unit files that most of them end up using appear to work, but only because the job is short enough that it completes before systemd reaches the end of the shutdown and/or reboot process. Take a look at the Arch Linux Forums thread controlling systemd shutdown order started by a user trying to find a way to get systemd to launch a script at shutdown (or reboot) and wait until the script completes before stopping user processes. She never got a proper answer, only that 'it is possible'.
It is possible to make systemd wait for a long-running script to run to completion at shutdown -- I got a working unit file and Bash script combination in the end -- but it isn't as simple as it would seem to write a unit file to stop systemd doing so many things in parallel, and not that straightforward to discriminate between reboot and shutdown in systemd, either. On the other hand, with OpenRC you can put a Bash script in /etc/local.d/ that includes a check on the runlevel and it will be launched and will run to completion [1]. (In case anyone is wondering, you can't drop this sort of script in /lib/systemd/system-shutdown/ in a systemd distribution, because scripts in that directory are launched late in the shutdown process, after file systems have been mounted read-only.)
[1] Running a shell script at shutdown only (not at reboot) – a comparison between OpenRC and systemd
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Clevo W230SS: amd64, VIDEO_CARDS="intel modesetting nvidia".
Compal NBLB2: ~amd64, xf86-video-ati. Dual boot Win 7 Pro 64-bit.
OpenRC udev elogind & KDE on both.
Fitzcarraldo's blog
Last edited by Fitzcarraldo on Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: |
Re. axl, whether you want to consider him an agent-provocateur or a simple troll, the best way to handle him is just ignore him. |
I'm not worked up about it... I just didn't want his assertions to go unchecked. If you don't explain why someone is wrong, you run the risk of them misinforming others. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6097
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: |
Re. axl, whether you want to consider him an agent-provocateur or a simple troll, the best way to handle him is just ignore him. |
I'm not worked up about it... I just didn't want his assertions to go unchecked. If you don't explain why someone is wrong, you run the risk of them misinforming others. |
But ... if he's simply trolling he'll just keep coming back with more stupid (it's a never ending cycle )
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PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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berferd
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: SystemD free system/gentoo |
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| Naib wrote: | | If you don't like a piece of software using systemd do you know a better place to raise this? UPSTREAM. Could gentoo do something? maybe like ... talk to UPSTREAM... same end-state which is talk to UPSTREAM. |
Given the nakedly political way in which systemd injected itself into all major distros, why would I waste my time doing such a thing? Considering the condescending, arrogant way in which even valid bug reports are treated, why would I waste my time and energy doing such? Are you going to suggest I try to stop the Earth revolving around the Sun too?
| Naib wrote: | | stop using a piece of software or do something instead of whine because whining doesn't actually change anything to align with what you want... That "do something" maybe a fork, maybe submit patches... but it certainly isn't whining on some obscure forum that the vast majority of the world doesn't know of or doesn't care about. |
Complaining about it is doing something. Voicing your concerns somewhere where they're at least not going to be shouted down immediately counts. Systemd is the worst thing that has ever happened to Linux. Linux and specifically Gentoo Linux was a big part of my life for many years, and systemd ruined it for me. No, I won't be quiet about it no matter how whiny and bitchy you get, and really, if we annoy you so much, how about you take your own advice and just ignore these discussions? |
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berferd
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | There still is Funtoo, systemd-free. |
I ran Funtoo for years, but I was stymied at every turn when I tried to participate in their community. I could not sign up for their forums or bug tracker. Emails to admins and even drobbins himself went unanswered, even though I had communicated with him via email before. |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: SystemD free system/gentoo |
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Again ... too many people care about exactly what SystemD says/does while also expressing a stance of not caring...
By upstream I mean the likes of GNOME or mutter as to why they are hard-depending on an init system. These are the places it should be stopped and THESE are the places it is being stopped (look at elogind, fantastic piece of detanglement).
None of these involve interfacing with systemd developers. Distro's chose to use systemd so why do you care what they chose? if you are using distro-X and they chose systemd then change... if you are not using distro-X then so what... What does any of that have todo with the price of tea in china...
Too many people talk and whine about the the evils of systemd and the spread of it AND do nothing but whine.. The only things I have seen that are proactively acting to mitigate systemd are
1) eudev
2) elogind
3) some constructive blogs/posts/... that detail exactly what is wrong
the extraction of viable aspects of systemd (viable being needed by others and thus being standalone makes sense). This mini-audit also showed it hasn't spread and gentoo users still have a choice... GNOME has a few hoops and mutter are testing elogind. The other three are helpers for systemd systemd systems so what use are they on non-systemd systems.
Discuss around systemd and the arrogance for sure but there are a clique that seem to spread FUD that it takes over ... it isn't and that is a clear FACT as I have shown. Now tomorrow systemd might announce they have absorbed the linux kernel and then sure a call to arms BUT with it being non-expanding, non-forcing why is there FUD still being spread? this sort of FUD and baseless animosity towards systemd that doesn't help the discussions... Basically systemd zealots will assign a label and dismiss all comments from an individual because they have assigned a label "they are hostile to systemd" and FUD is an angle that can legitimise their use of said label to then dismiss because of said label. Its an old tactic and unfortunately a number on this forum use this tactic... logical fallacies at their finest.
Stick to the facts, stick to citable critism's, keep the FUD to a minimum and all is good
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| Quote: | | Removed by Chiitoo |
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berferd
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: SystemD free system/gentoo |
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| Naib wrote: | | ...This mini-audit... |
I know you're very proud of your "mini-audit". You keep bringing it up. It's not convincing me that I didn't spend increasingly large amounts of time stiff-arming systemd and its collateral nonsense on my Gentoo systems. No, I'm not going to waste any more time by detailing it for you. I was there and went through it. |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| berferd wrote: | | I ran Funtoo for years, but I was stymied at every turn when I tried to participate in their community. I could not sign up for their forums or bug tracker. Emails to admins and even drobbins himself went unanswered, even though I had communicated with him via email before. |
That is indeed a problem. I looked there in search of a migration guide and saw that the forum was pretty thin. Plus drobbins suggesting to drop the forums and just use reddit.
Still, it is a systemd free distro. However, all in all, FreeBSD seems more robust.
For the time being, just continuing my overlays looks good. That is until portage or eix or layman or repoman requires systemd. |
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