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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
steveL wrote:
I'm not getting into a rehash of history; polkit has always been part of the "gentle Putsch", along with consolekit, logind etc.

All the *kit rubbish was originally developed by canonical according to arguments I heard several times in discussions. AFAIK, the only relation to systemd to it was that at some point a consolekit clone had been implemented by systemd under the name "logind" in the usual NIH manner. I had never checked these informations, but I have heard them so often in discussions that I had no doubts about them.
arguments is not citable evidence...
it took 30seconds to validate the claim about polkit was factorailly incorrect thus please provide citable evidence for *kit being developed by canonical
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i4dnf
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A friend pointed me today towards this nice short story by Arthur C. Clarke: Superiority.

Seemed very fitting in the politics of systemd context.
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Last edited by i4dnf on Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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mv
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
arguments is not citable evidence...

Of course, they are not. I just repeated what I heard very often. I remember that once I had checked briefly without any convincing (to me) result: I had found some contributions of Pöttering to polkit, but some contributions do not mean anything (e.g. I also contributed to several different projects without being otherwise involved with these). Most of the other authors were unknown to me.

Edit: Before I had posted, I had briefly checked again, and still found no convincing (to me) result in either direction.
Quote:
it took 30seconds to validate the claim about polkit was factorailly incorrect

So you do have a citable reference about polit? Please share.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Edit: Before I had posted, I had briefly checked again, and still found no convincing (to me) result in either direction.
Quote:
it took 30seconds to validate the claim about polkit was factorailly incorrect

So you do have a citable reference about polit? Please share.


From Naib provide list of authors, major contributor is David Zeuthen
And it take then 1s (because of Naib previous 30s invest) to find who is that guy : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DavidZeuthen

Now, you can take as-is, or think that David Zeuthen from Fedora is not the same guy ; or bitch that we should check if David Zeuthen was working for Canonical by that time or not, or argue again that, it's not because that guy is working for Fedora that he has any part in the "gentle push"...

But enough is enough no?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/me is reminded of "12 Angry Men"
The Henry Fonda version, not the Tony Hancock parody.
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jd2066
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
AFAIK, the only relation to systemd to it was that at some point a consolekit clone had been implemented by systemd under the name "logind" in the usual NIH manner.

It appears you got a few things confused there, here is what happened with regarding consolekit and logind.
* The systemd/RedHat developers created things like systemd-logind to replace the functionality of ConsoleKit and then stopped development of ConsoleKit.
* ConsoleKit was forked by the Xfce developers as ConsoleKit2 because they wanted to support non-Linux systems which systemd does not support.
* LoginKit was created to provide a Logind API to applications using ConsoleKit2 so those applications wouldn't need to depend on systemd to use Logind APIs.
* Another project called elogind was started that forked the logind code from systemd and rewrote it to use PAM.
This information is from the Forks and alternative implementations section of the systemd wikipedia page.
Edit: It appears that ConsoleKit was created by RedHat developer William Jon McCann and logind was created by RedHat developers Lennart Pottering and Kay Sievers (who appear to be the primary authors of systemd and the ones who many people seem to target their messages of dislike for systemd to).
If logind was NIH as you said that would mean the "here" part specifically refereed to ConsoleKit not being made by Lennart and Sievers so it had to be replaced (Which would be quite the extreme case of NIH, still possible I suppose though).
More likely, they just didn't think ConsoleKit worked with their systemd plans as was the case with a lot of other existing software so the functionality was redone for systemd.

mv wrote:
So you do have a citable reference about polit? Please share.

I googled polkit and found a wikipedia entry on polkit.
In the wikipedia entry, it says:
Quote:
It is developed and maintained by David Zeuthen from Red Hat and hosted by the freedesktop.org project.

You can then follow one of the references on the wikipedia page to the polkit git repository where the first commit does appear to be from David Zeuthen.
Then I googled the name and found his Linkedin page.
In the summery he says:
Quote:
I have written and influenced important parts of the modern Linux desktop; you can find my contributions in the OS kernel (e.g. Linux) through the core OS (e.g. udev, D-Bus, PolicyKit, udisks), the UI toolkit (e.g. GLib, GTK+) and applications (e.g. Nautilus, Disk Utility, Desktop Shell).

Under Experience, he is listed as working at RedHat as a Senior Software Engineer from "August 2004 – January 2013" where he "Helped architect and develop several key subsystems on the modern Linux desktop".
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mv
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am really glad to hear that Canonical is not to blame for the *kit rubbish (and so what I heard many times is just plain wrong...).
Anyway, a relation of it to systemd is still not convincing: the main contributors to these projects seem to be rather different persons.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeezus, like I said: a rehash of history.

Sorry, but I remember countless years of argumentation with the systemdbust crowd, and their various bulshytt memes.

All of it pushed by RedHat "engineers".

If you don't think Zetheun, with his history of work on systemdbust projects, is one of the RedHat systemdbust crowd, then you have my amusement.

Polkit has always been one of the Lennux "core OS" projects.
Period.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think mv is expecting someone to show him a picture of Zeuthen's ass with "redhat forever" tattoo on it.

And i also just love his:
Quote:
All the *kit rubbish was originally developed by canonical according to arguments I heard several times in discussions.

Quote:
Of course, they are not. I just repeated what I heard very often

...
But when it comes to you:
Quote:
So you do have a citable reference about polit? Please share.


mv, you're a phenomena :)
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mv
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
If you don't think Zetheun, with his history of work on systemdbust projects

History?
Code:
grep -Rl Zeuthen systemd-236/
systemd-236/src/udev/udev-builtin-input_id.c
systemd-236/src/udev/ata_id/ata_id.c
systemd-236/.mailmap

So many years ago (the copyright in the files is 2004) he had perhaps contributed something to udev; he is not even mentioned in systemd's NEWS file where the contributors are named.
Quote:
Polkit has always been one of the Lennux "core OS" projects.

A core project for which Lennart made only very few contributions and whose support in systemd is purely optional?
Quote:
Period.

Proof by claim. I see.
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jd2066
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
So many years ago (the copyright in the files is 2004) he had perhaps contributed something to udev; he is not even mentioned in systemd's NEWS file where the contributors are named.

If you search the systemd github for commits by David Zeuthen you will find a few commits in 2009, 2010 and 2011.
So it does appear that David did commit some things to systemd.

In 2013, he decided to work for Google instead of RedHat so commit searches after that date appear for projects like android.

I'm not really sure what you or SteveL are arguing about.

From what I can tell RedHat started with their Core OS Projects like ConsoleKit, PolKit and DeviceKit (The original name for udisks, upower and a couple other device utilities to replace HAL) and then later decided that instead of having a bunch of Core OS Projects, they would just have one, that would do what those projects did and much more for managing a system thus the creation of systemd (This is just a guess, I could be totally off-base on this).

The systemd developers have already replaced the functions of ConsoleKit and probably parts of DeviceKit with systemd so it seems plausible that Polkit will one day be replaced by systemd functionality.
It might not though, they may just decide that polkit should stay separate, I have no idea, I'm even sure what polkit does as it's description is not that helpful.
Timeline wise, it does appear that Polkit was the more recent *kit as it was released close to the start of the systemd project so it's possible that the developers think it should be separate from systemd.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
If you don't think Zetheun, with his history of work on systemdbust projects
mv wrote:
History?
Oh FFS, you're in bicker-mode. I know this, because you completely ignored the technical content in your last "riposte", and now you're into picking at precise words, when everybody including you, knows damn well that Zeuthen is part of RedHat's "gentle Putsch" because he works for them, and has done for ages, working on "Core OS" projects.

EOD afaic, with you; unless you feel to review what I wrote about PAM, and have an actual technical discussion, about what could have been done better, and what must be done better in the future.

Because, like so many geeks, you evince a marked lack of understanding of social realpolitik; from where I'm sitting, at least.

As such, it's like discussing computer security with a business analyst who "just wants it to work": boring, and fruitless, since the person you are dealing with is so out of their depth, and so full of their own status (or rectitude, in your case), that they simply do not know how out of their depth they are.

That is precisely how I feel about most posts about systemdbust, and most sociopolitical discussion, from people I otherwise respect on a technical level.

Ninety-nine times out of a hundred, they're on the "development" side of things: not the sysadmin side.
Go figure.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
I think mv is expecting someone to show him a picture of Zeuthen's ass with "redhat forever" tattoo on it.
..
mv, you're a phenomena :)
Lul. Thanks, man; I needed that belly-laugh. :-)
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mv
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
you completely ignored the technical content in your last "riposte"

The technical content is obvious: systemd and polkit are independent programs which can be (and often are) used independently.
You claimed systemd requires ramdisk which is plain wrong.
To hide your nonsense claim, you build up a strawman as usual and try to discuss whether systemd=polkit because some developers both once worked for the same company.
Of course, as usual for your trolling, you fill your poor excuse with personal attacks. Therefore EOD
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of politicking...

https://mail-archive.com/linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org/msg72908.html

Going through this thread is... just great (aggravating).

TL'DR - keep repeating that BTRFS is a device manager until people believe you.
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The_Document
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't it only a matter of time before many servers wind up with systemd installed on them and thus being extremely compromised because of it? Im very sure there will be waves of bug reports to systemd about their insecure software.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
you completely ignored the technical content in your last "riposte"
mv wrote:
The technical content is obvious: systemd and polkit are independent programs which can be (and often are) used independently.
QED. I never mentioned either: I was quite plainly discussing PAM.

To follow up on what I said earlier, about "apolitical" geeks being useless at sociopolitical discussion:
Pericles wrote:
We do not call a person who does not engage in public life politically quietist; we call them politically useless.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Document wrote:
Isn't it only a matter of time before many servers wind up with systemd installed on them and thus being extremely compromised because of it? Im very sure there will be waves of bug reports to systemd about their insecure software.
If Poeterring is good at anything, it's blaming other people for his fsck-ups.
"systemd is just the messenger" will be reincarnated, and far too many people will believe it, since they've heard it so many times before ("everyone says", right?) however ludicrous it was then, and will be in the future.

The design approach is the fsck-up; but then it's a Master Control Program. They always are.
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The_Document
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
The_Document wrote:
Isn't it only a matter of time before many servers wind up with systemd installed on them and thus being extremely compromised because of it? Im very sure there will be waves of bug reports to systemd about their insecure software.
If Poeterring is good at anything, it's blaming other people for his fsck-ups.
"systemd is just the messenger" will be reincarnated, and far too many people will believe it, since they've heard it so many times before ("everyone says", right?) however ludicrous it was then, and will be in the future.

The design approach is the fsck-up; but then it's a Master Control Program. They always are.


I suppose when it comes to systemd, people will have to learn the hard way. They will likely continue ignoring legitimate bugs until systemd has very serious exploits which cannot be ignored because it will gain much attention.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
"systemd is just the messenger" will be reincarnated, and far too many people will believe it, since they've heard it so many times before ("everyone says", right?) however ludicrous it was then, and will be in the future.
Hear hear!

If 1 million people say the same stupid thing, it is still stupid.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So here we go, more and more "this is the way SystemD does it, so it should be the default now" like they did with the VirtualBox module configuration (sticking config files into /usr/lib/modules-load.d/). At least the OpenRC devs had the sense to say no to that kind of nonsense. :)

BTW, please don't comment on that bug, there's no need to beat that dead horse anymore. :)
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
So here we go, more and more "this is the way SystemD does it, so it should be the default now" like they did with the VirtualBox module configuration (sticking config files into /usr/lib/modules-load.d/). At least the OpenRC devs had the sense to say no to that kind of nonsense. :)

BTW, please don't comment on that bug, there's no need to beat that dead horse anymore. :)
wow... Just wow
I am glad the Gentoo devs have been sensible. The assertion here has been "systemd does it so why do t you" rather than articulating why a different location is best...

How about /etc is in the root and /etc is for config rather than /usr which might not be mounted ....
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Shamus397 wrote:
So here we go, more and more "this is the way SystemD does it, so it should be the default now" like they did with the VirtualBox module configuration (sticking config files into /usr/lib/modules-load.d/). At least the OpenRC devs had the sense to say no to that kind of nonsense. :)

BTW, please don't comment on that bug, there's no need to beat that dead horse anymore. :)
wow... Just wow
I am glad the Gentoo devs have been sensible. The assertion here has been "systemd does it so why do t you" rather than articulating why a different location is best...

How about /etc is in the root and /etc is for config rather than /usr which might not be mounted ....


Early in his Gentoo career, WilliamH already manipulated the Council into removing support for /usr being unmounted at boot, so I'm actually surprised he said no to moving the files in /etc/init.d since he's the one actively crippling OpenRC in favor of systemd.
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
Naib wrote:
Shamus397 wrote:
So here we go, more and more "this is the way SystemD does it, so it should be the default now" like they did with the VirtualBox module configuration (sticking config files into /usr/lib/modules-load.d/). At least the OpenRC devs had the sense to say no to that kind of nonsense. :)

BTW, please don't comment on that bug, there's no need to beat that dead horse anymore. :)
wow... Just wow
I am glad the Gentoo devs have been sensible. The assertion here has been "systemd does it so why do t you" rather than articulating why a different location is best...

How about /etc is in the root and /etc is for config rather than /usr which might not be mounted ....


Early in his Gentoo career, WilliamH already manipulated the Council into removing support for /usr being unmounted at boot, so I'm actually surprised he said no to moving the files in /etc/init.d since he's the one actively crippling OpenRC in favor of systemd.


Best guess is that he knows enough not to rock the boat too much, given how easily certain ill-advised actions can lead to a fork exodus.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
So here we go, more and more "this is the way SystemD does it, so it should be the default now" like they did with the VirtualBox module configuration (sticking config files into /usr/lib/modules-load.d/). At least the OpenRC devs had the sense to say no to that kind of nonsense. :)
I like the argument, that system administrators can not freely adapt what is in /etc/init.d. It totally blends out what /etc/conf.d is for... :lol:

(Blending out what's already there is some sort of systemd credo, isn't it?)
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