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jhon987
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: openRC instead of sysVinit? Reply with quote

So I just learned about the new cool option that you can use openRC-init instead of sysVinit (https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC#openrc-init)
However the Gentoo wiki is very silent on that matter.
I'm trying it right now actually and besides needing to add ttys to the runlevels myself and few commands differ in syntax, e.g. openrc shutdown, openrc reboot.... everything else pretty much feel the same

Does anyone knows what purpose it's used for i.e. what use-case?
Personally, I thought I might gain a tiny boot boost for the openrc code is more modern than sysV but it seems that is not the case.
Any thoughts?
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charles17
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/openrc.git/commit/?id=13ca79856e5836117e469c3edbcfd4bf47b6bab0
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WilliamH-ware like current openrc is the biggest example of "this program comes with no warranty" in Gentoo today. Use its pid1 if you want, but be informed that it's likely to disappear with as little warning or consultation with the Gentoo community as which it appeared.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: openRC instead of sysVinit? Reply with quote

jhon987 wrote:
Does anyone knows what purpose it's used for i.e. what use-case?
I'd like to know too.
It seems like it does not provide much functionality yet. I might be wrong though...

I wonder what's its goal?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: openRC instead of sysVinit? Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
jhon987 wrote:
Does anyone knows what purpose it's used for i.e. what use-case?
I'd like to know too.
It seems like it does not provide much functionality yet. I might be wrong though...

I wonder what's its goal?
PID1 isn't meant to provide "much functionality"
1) get launched by the kernel
2) spawn init
3) reap zombies.

Looking at the code ... give or take, that's what it does & that is all it needs to do. PID1 is meant to be boring, simple, reliable. The more you put into PID1 the increase chance that it might be unstable & this is one process you do NOT want to be unstable!

One one hand this is good! finally openRC is a full fledged init system that can stand on its own! On the other... knowing the steward of the codebase now, what would be shoehorned into PID1.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: openRC instead of sysVinit? Reply with quote

Thanks guys for all the input
Charles17 your link to the commit is much appreciated.

Naib wrote:

Looking at the code ... give or take, that's what it does & that is all it needs to do. PID1 is meant to be boring, simple, reliable. The more you put into PID1 the increase chance that it might be unstable & this is one process you do NOT want to be unstable!

One one hand this is good! finally openRC is a full fledged init system that can stand on its own! On the other... knowing the steward of the codebase now, what would be shoehorned into PID1.


Naib you seem to know your way around the code and quite informed on the subject generally, can you give an insight perhaps what's the use of replacing sysV with openRC, I mean, why suddenly at version 0.25 an openRC replacement of sysV pops up? what's behind it do you think? what's the goal?

I'd ask the devs directly as I'm quite curious about it, but I don't know them personally and I'm assuming they're quite busy to answer random questions...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: openRC instead of sysVinit? Reply with quote

jhon987 wrote:
... what's the use of replacing sysV with openRC, ...
And there are some more alternatives https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Init_system.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whichever init you go with, be mindful of who owns the package as maintainer. Some of them have no interest in responding to system-breaking bugs at all.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: openRC instead of sysVinit? Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Looking at the code ... give or take, that's what it does & that is all it needs to do. PID1 is meant to be boring, simple, reliable. The more you put into PID1 the increase chance that it might be unstable & this is one process you do NOT want to be unstable!

One one hand this is good! finally openRC is a full fledged init system that can stand on its own! On the other... knowing the steward of the codebase now, what would be shoehorned into PID1.
shellcmd: du -h /usr/lib/systemd/systemd :
1.1M   /usr/lib/systemd/systemd
... what the wtf? Well... glibc adds quite a lot to binary size, but afaik systemd cannot be built against any other libc... This is what I "have to" keep up with.

Anyways, I do hope OpenRC-init never reaches this.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might be a bit more meaningful to measure it this way:
Code:
 ~ $ qsize --ignore /usr/share/'(doc|man)' openrc runit | column -ts ':'
sys-apps/openrc-0.26.3       198 files, 31 non-files, 106 names-ignored, 1,903.442 KiB
sys-process/runit-2.1.2-r9   26 files, 14 non-files, 37 names-ignored, 238.282 KiB

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Might be a bit more meaningful to measure it this way:
Code:
 ~ $ qsize --ignore /usr/share/'(doc|man)' openrc runit | column -ts ':'
sys-apps/openrc-0.26.3       198 files, 31 non-files, 106 names-ignored, 1,903.442 KiB
sys-process/runit-2.1.2-r9   26 files, 14 non-files, 37 names-ignored, 238.282 KiB
Thats the entire init system scripts and all. comparing the size of the actual init (PID1) process makes sense.

Code:
 ls -lh /sbin/openrc-init
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 11K Jun  2 16:29 /sbin/openrc-init

11k for openrc-init isn't too bad.
Code:

 ls -lh /sbin/runit
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 19K Jun  7 19:57 /sbin/runit

much of muchness at this level.



1.1Meg for systemd PID1 is ridiculous
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That ignores the size of /lib/librc.so.1 that openrc-init depends on.

But if we start counting what ldd adds, I imagine systemd's situation is even more dire. I hear they're big fans of XML.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good point:

Code:

 ldd /sbin/openrc-init
   linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007ffc8add1000)
   librc.so.1 => /lib64/librc.so.1 (0x00007f8542d90000)
   libc.so.6 => /lib64/libc.so.6 (0x00007f85429f5000)
   /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f8542f9e000)
#bash-fu failed me todo this in one go...

ls -lrt /sbin/openrc-init /lib64/libc.so.6 /lib64/librc.so.1 /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root    12 May 13 20:37 /lib64/libc.so.6 -> libc-2.24.so
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root    10 May 13 20:37 /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 -> ld-2.24.so
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 55680 Jun  2 16:29 /lib64/librc.so.1
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 10248 Jun  2 16:29 /sbin/openrc-init

ls -lrt /sbin/openrc-init /lib64/libc.so.6 /lib64/librc.so.1 /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2  | awk '{ total += $5 }; END { print total }'
65950


ldd /sbin/runit
   linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007ffc28fdb000)
   libc.so.6 => /lib64/libc.so.6 (0x00007fb472cf7000)
   /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007fb473092000)

ls -lrt /sbin/runit /lib64/libc.so.6 /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root    12 May 13 20:37 /lib64/libc.so.6 -> libc-2.24.so
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root    10 May 13 20:37 /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 -> ld-2.24.so
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 18656 Jun  7 20:12 /sbin/runit

ls -lrt /sbin/runit /lib64/libc.so.6 /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 | awk '{ total += $5 }; END { print total }'
18678


openrc-init is 3.5x larger but more than likely dwarfed by systemd. I might remote into my work ubuntu box and do a similar thing... I will need to sort my bash-fu I suspect 10-20 libraries and no chance am I pasting them when bash and cut can do that
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats better:

Code:

sizedep() { stat --format=%s $1 $(ldd $1 | cut -d' ' -f3 | tr '\n' ' ') | awk '{s+=$1} END {print s}'; }



$ sizedep /sbin/openrc-init
65940
$ sizedep /sbin/runit
18668


ill execute this on my NUbuntu box shortly
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how accurate this is but...
shellcmd: ldd /usr/lib/systemd/systemd | awk '{if ($4) if (!x[$3]++) printf $3 "\000"}' | xargs -0 readlink -zf | du --files0-from=- --apparent-size -hc :
2.2M   /usr/lib64/systemd/libsystemd-shared-233.so
31K   /lib64/librt-2.24.so
259K   /usr/lib64/libseccomp.so.2.3.2
59K   /lib64/libpam.so.0.84.2
103K   /lib64/libaudit.so.1.0.0
87K   /lib64/libkmod.so.2.3.2
302K   /lib64/libmount.so.1.1.0
128K   /lib64/libpthread-2.24.so
1.6M   /lib64/libc-2.24.so
23K   /lib64/libcap.so.2.25
151K   /lib64/liblzma.so.5.2.3
79K   /usr/lib64/liblz4.so.1.7.5
1.1M   /usr/lib64/libgcrypt.so.20.1.6
35K   /lib64/libacl.so.1.1.0
207K   /usr/lib64/libidn.so.11.6.16
273K   /lib64/libblkid.so.1.1.0
160K   /usr/lib64/libcryptsetup.so.4.7.0
15K   /lib64/libdl-2.24.so
19K   /usr/lib64/libcap-ng.so.0.0.0
91K   /lib64/libz.so.1.2.11
83K   /usr/lib64/libgpg-error.so.0.22.0
19K   /lib64/libattr.so.1.1.0
19K   /lib64/libuuid.so.1.3.0
346K   /lib64/libdevmapper.so.1.02
138K   /usr/lib64/libudev.so.1.6.6
979K   /lib64/libm-2.24.so
8.3M   total


Aaaand SysVinit on my server:
shellcmd: ldd /sbin/init | awk '{if ($4) if (!x[$3]++) printf $3 "\000"}' | xargs -0 readlink -zf | du --files0-from=- --apparent-size -hc :
1.6M    /lib64/libc-2.23.so
1.6M    total


These don't count the main binary in though...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
sizedep /sbin/init
2306855


Code:
readlink /sbin/init
/lib/systemd/systemd


Code:
ldd /sbin/init
   linux-vdso.so.1 =>  (0x00007ffd285c0000)
   libsystemd-shared-232.so => /lib/systemd/libsystemd-shared-232.so (0x00007f0a210cf000)
   libselinux.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libselinux.so.1 (0x00007f0a20e71000)
   librt.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/librt.so.1 (0x00007f0a20c69000)
   libseccomp.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libseccomp.so.2 (0x00007f0a20a24000)
   libpam.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpam.so.0 (0x00007f0a20816000)
   libaudit.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libaudit.so.1 (0x00007f0a205ec000)
   libkmod.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libkmod.so.2 (0x00007f0a203d5000)
   libapparmor.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libapparmor.so.1 (0x00007f0a201c4000)
   libmount.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libmount.so.1 (0x00007f0a1ff79000)
   libpthread.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007f0a1fd5b000)
   libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x00007f0a1f994000)
   libcap.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcap.so.2 (0x00007f0a1f78c000)
   liblzma.so.5 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/liblzma.so.5 (0x00007f0a1f566000)
   liblz4.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/liblz4.so.1 (0x00007f0a1f34e000)
   libgcrypt.so.20 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcrypt.so.20 (0x00007f0a1f03f000)
   libacl.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libacl.so.1 (0x00007f0a1ee37000)
   libidn.so.11 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libidn.so.11 (0x00007f0a1ec04000)
   /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x000055f444d69000)
   libpcre.so.3 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpcre.so.3 (0x00007f0a1e98f000)
   libdl.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2 (0x00007f0a1e78b000)
   libcap-ng.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcap-ng.so.0 (0x00007f0a1e586000)
   libblkid.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libblkid.so.1 (0x00007f0a1e341000)
   libgpg-error.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgpg-error.so.0 (0x00007f0a1e12d000)
   libattr.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libattr.so.1 (0x00007f0a1df26000)
   libuuid.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libuuid.so.1 (0x00007f0a1dd21000)



Code:
uname -a
Linux ###### 4.10.0-20-generic #22-Ubuntu SMP Thu Apr 20 09:22:42 UTC 2017 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux


2.3Meg....
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

... of which almost everything is used by something else as well. Hint: shared memory.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that isn't needed by PID1. Hint it just sweeps up orphans and launches startup processes. If PID2 needs additional complexity then so be it BUT PID1 doesnt. Chain load but I have covered this
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue isn't about how much RAM/disk space it consumes (though that is a valid issue in some circumstances), it's the fact that, the more complicated PID1 becomes and the more libraries it pulls in, the more likely it is to have an exploitable bug in it that becomes a security nightmare.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
The issue isn't about how much RAM/disk space it consumes (though that is a valid issue in some circumstances), it's the fact that, the more complicated PID1 becomes and the more libraries it pulls in, the more likely it is to have an exploitable bug in it that becomes a security nightmare.

Bingo!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to wonder how it makes meaningful use of selinux, pam, apparmor, capabilities and seccomp all at the same time. Maybe they're necessary for safely handling all the unicode domain name processing it needs to do?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ignoring the ignorant noise a few posts up...


anyone tried openrc-init? i am tempted to give it a go tonight
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: openRC instead of sysVinit? Reply with quote

jhon987 wrote:
Personally, I thought I might gain a tiny boot boost for the openrc code is more modern than sysV but it seems that is not the case.

hmm.. if not, then personally i'd plonk for runit reducing bloat, but for so much invested in openrc to get away from.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
anyone tried openrc-init? i am tempted to give it a go tonight

i did that day itself.. and reverted back straight away as i didn't know how to get my preferred mgetty configs.
just tried again.. configured agetty in /etc/conf.d/agetty. still don't know how to config each individually. /etc/inittab is redundant. everything seems to be working for now.
i like how openrc-init is so much smaller and hopefully more efficient than sysvinit.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I think sysvinit is fine; the most I'd do to it is strip the src repo of the sysvrc code (which is what people confuse with sysvinit = pid1.)

I don't think it helps at all, to keep it in the same repo as your pid2 implementation; it's a pure violation of modularity, IMO.
That means you simply open yourself up to the temptation to tie the code to things it has no need to be tied-to; keeping separation means that can never happen.
It also means the admin has a harder time picking and choosing.
The component-based approach falls down when components are all in fact bundles.

It cannot be anything else, because there simply is no reason to share any (lib-type) code. (Even if there were, that should be split out; but there isn't, given a POSIX libc.)
The reason for that is that pid1 is supposed to be kept simple; sysvinit already does plenty, and what it does in pid1 is actually very useful there.
Given that you have a pid1, over time the "extras" it does, confusedly called "bloat", would just be reinvented: starting up the initsystem and consoles is practically-speaking mandatory. You need a way for unrelated processes run by or as root, to be able to shutdown or restart the machine. Runlevels end up being reused in one form or another, and it is useful to be able to defer something until its end (like xdm does.) Since you're handing over control to something else for everything, it is again useful to be able to specify whether you want to wait, fire-and-forget, or respawn. Hello inittab.

So, IMO the design space has already been explored well enough over the last 40 years, and sysvinit (pid1, without sysvrc) does it right. Merging it with something else doesn't go anywhere good, and there is nothing new to explore (people here want it to do less, not more than sysvinit. systemdiots want it to do more, which only makes it an attack vector for zero practical purpose, and they're doing that elsewhere, so kind of outta scope for our discussion) so it's hardly interesting, except as a first or second C project. The simple spec of a less useful impl, means you can do that in any language supporting fork and wait primitives (as we've seen on these forums.)

In software development terms, all that needs to happen is sysvinit pid1 needs to be kept maintained, for rc/initsystem developers to have a stable base to work from (if they would only see that..)
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