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Gregow
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:01 pm    Post subject: Windows-like UAC for Gnome? Reply with quote

As the title says, is there anyway to set up Gnome like that?

I want the option to "run as admin" or "open as admin" directly from the GUI, so I can perform actual system management from the GUI instead of going through the terminal all the time. Like I can do in Windows and MacOS.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gksu or gksudo can print password dialog for you.
They use regular sudo configuration, so you have to put a proper entry in /etc/sudoers that will grant you permission to use it.
No idea how you configure gnome menus for using gksu though. It certainly can be done, I just don't know how hard or how easy it is.
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know gksu or gksudo will prompt for password, if it's setup, but it just isn't good enough. It's a detour when managing the system, which gets seriously annoying after a while. I mean, it sort of defeats the purpose of a GUI when you're managing the GUI through CLI...
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregow wrote:
I know gksu or gksudo will prompt for password, if it's setup, but it just isn't good enough. It's a detour when managing the system, which gets seriously annoying after a while. I mean, it sort of defeats the purpose of a GUI when you're managing the GUI through CLI...
You are trying to subvert the entire security system of your box. Linux security is based on challenging any change to the system. I wouldn't recommend eliminating this. In fact, I wouldn't recommend using any GUI tool as root at all.

All you need to do is configure sudo but again I really don't recommend doing this. You are literally opening your box to any scripting kiddie who cares to try.
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Gregow
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Gregow wrote:
I know gksu or gksudo will prompt for password, if it's setup, but it just isn't good enough. It's a detour when managing the system, which gets seriously annoying after a while. I mean, it sort of defeats the purpose of a GUI when you're managing the GUI through CLI...
You are trying to subvert the entire security system of your box. Linux security is based on challenging any change to the system. I wouldn't recommend eliminating this. In fact, I wouldn't recommend using any GUI tool as root at all.

All you need to do is configure sudo but again I really don't recommend doing this. You are literally opening your box to any scripting kiddie who cares to try.

I'm not trying to subvert the security. What I'm trying to do is to temporarily get higher privileges through the GUI instead of the terminal. I don't see how that is less secure than running sudo when it's just done through the GUI instead.

Browse to /etc/portage

Open make.conf as admin.

Enter password.

Edit and save.

Or, prompt for password when saving.

Same thing with other tasks I might want to perform through the GUI. If that is a security risk, then well... never had an issue with Windows UAC, which is over 10 years old, nor MacOS.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to edit config files as root, write a wrapper script that runs `gksudo gvim $@` or whatever, and open them with that.
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not really a solution. I want to be able to run all actions in the GUI with elevated privileges, with the GUI promting med for password when it's needed.
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are all actions? It has probably been more than 10 years since I ran any GUI application as root, just can't imagine what actions require root to run GUI apps.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny... Windows UAC was intended to be annoying. That's exactly why many people kept disabling it :lol:
Gregow, root and user are different kind of things. Being a user _and_ root on a single machine is an anomaly rather than typical situation, and admins often have a very different ways of accessing machines than their users have, so no, doing it from command line does _not_ defeat the purpose of GUI.
GUI's setting are usually self-contained, so you don't need root access to configure it.
System can only be configured by root, and it does not require GUI.

Now, gksu is as close to UAC as it comes. If it's not good enough for you, then what do you want?
Note: I haven't seen UAC for ages, so "make it MORE like UAC" is not an acceptable description.

Btw, don't watch porn as root. You can catch something nasty :lol: 
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I take it there either is no solution or you much rather prefer arguing.

UAC was not intended to be annoying, and it is not. It was intended as a layer of security, requiring elevated privileges to access system files. That's not the same thing as being user and root, no more than running 'sudo' is.
The real anomaly here is having the user locked in to the home directory, requiring text input to elevate privileges outside of that. Going through that detour is slow, clunky and quite frankly retarded.

Of course, when pointing such obvious things out the response is something akin to "you don't really need it". If only someone would have told me that before!

Just downloaded a nice little font. Let's install it:

"sudo cp /home/gregow/download/animal-planet/gutsy-gibbon.ttf /usr/share/fonts/truetype/"

Yeah, beacause that's really fast. Especially if you want to select a number of files and copy or move them somewhere. Who would ever want to do that?

Of course, in such cases there's this even more super fast way. Open terminal, type "gkesu nautilus", password, get a brand new window for the file manager. Since it's context driven you'll have to re-navigate to your files, but I guess that's a feature.

That may be fine if all you do is stash porn in your downloads directory, but aside from that it turns the GUI to nothing more than some make-up on a terminal. That's like pre-Windows 95 - that's how backwards it is.

Oh well, if there's no solution I've at least got a couple of modern operating systems running.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregow wrote:
I take it there either is no solution or you much rather prefer arguing.
No we gave you the solution: Configure sudo properly for a password-less login. gksudo uses sudo to effect its privilege escalation.
Gregow wrote:
UAC was not intended to be annoying, and it is not. It was intended as a layer of security, requiring elevated privileges to access system files. That's not the same thing as being user and root, no more than running 'sudo' is.
Incorrect. It was designed to patch a broken OS security model and is marginally successful. And actually, yes it is the same thing as being root. One can become root for a single command using sudo (short for Super User DO) or using su to temporally become another user in a shell. Either way that user escalates their privileges to that of the root user thereby becoming the root user. Widows does the exact same thing and it should never be done carelessly.

What you want to do is a small step above running your entire session as root.

Gregow wrote:
The real anomaly here is having the user locked in to the home directory, requiring text input to elevate privileges outside of that. Going through that detour is slow, clunky and quite frankly retarded.
Umm.... no. That is the way computer systems have been designed from the get go. *nix systems are by far the older and more mature operating systems. Windows is the weird one. If the user is reconfiguring the OS daily then they are doing something very wrong. By definition the user works with their files. By definition everything outside of that user's home directory does not need to be interacted with by the user. The exception would be files shared by other users and that is handled by permissions which the file owner controls anyway.
Gregow wrote:
Of course, when pointing such obvious things out the response is something akin to "you don't really need it". If only someone would have told me that before!
Maybe you should try listening. You have been told what the solution to your problem is but you haven't heard it. *nix works differently than windows and is more secure. Most of the server population out there is running some form of *nix, usually without virus protection or an issue. Leave a Windows PC online without virus protection for an average of 10 minutes and it will be compromised.

Gregow wrote:
Just downloaded a nice little font. Let's install it:

"sudo cp /home/gregow/download/animal-planet/gutsy-gibbon.ttf /usr/share/fonts/truetype/"

Yeah, beacause that's really fast. Especially if you want to select a number of files and copy or move them somewhere. Who would ever want to do that?
Let me correct that for you. Just download and install this virus. Who would want protections against that?

Users do not install software (or fonts). They use them. Actually to do it properly you should roll your own ebuild for the font if you really want it and it isn't in portage already. And once you have done that you will never do it again so why complain about the computer taking a second to make sure you are actually the one doing the instillation and not some attack script?

Gregow wrote:
Of course, in such cases there's this even more super fast way. Open terminal, type "gkesu nautilus", password, get a brand new window for the file manager. Since it's context driven you'll have to re-navigate to your files, but I guess that's a feature.

That may be fine if all you do is stash porn in your downloads directory, but aside from that it turns the GUI to nothing more than some make-up on a terminal. That's like pre-Windows 95 - that's how backwards it is.

Oh well, if there's no solution I've at least got a couple of modern operating systems running.
You really don't know what you are doing. You should listen to what everyone here is telling you. Most everyone here is some type of programmer, admin, or other power user. And we already told you how to do what you want: configure sudo so gksudo won't ask for a password!

All programs come in two parts. One is the core program that does something the other is the part that displays that information. When done correctly it is encapsulated, meaning the two parts don't know about each other. The *nix way of doing things is to write a simple program to do the task with a basic command line interface and then to write another GUI which just displays that information and calls the original program. It actually simplifies things dramatically.

Windows and many "modern" OS have abandoned this approach to their own detriment. The software produced in an "all in one" manor tends to be more buggy than two smaller and functionally equivalent programs.

As for your gripe about dropping to a terminal this is really on you. Gentoo is a power user's distro. It allows the end user the maximum amount of leeway to design their system the way they want it. You can configure all your bells, whistles, and privilege escalations to happen from a GUI if you so choose. The issue here is between the keyboard and the chair.
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Hu
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregow wrote:
UAC was not intended to be annoying, and it is not.
Wikipedia seems to disagree with you, and has a relatively authoritative source.
Wikipedia: User Account Control wrote:
However, David Cross, a product unit manager at Microsoft, stated during the RSA Conference 2008 that UAC was in fact designed to "annoy users," and force independent software vendors to make their programs more secure so that UAC prompts would not be triggered.[35]


Other users have debunked your argument, but I will make one more attempt to reason with you. If I understand correctly, you want to run an applications as your unprivileged strongly confined user and you want such applications, upon encountering a permissions error, to gksudo itself (or an appropriate helper) to retry the work with privilege, provided that the interactive user approves such elevation. Is that a fair characterization? If yes, which program(s) do you expect to have do this? If your answer is "all of them", you will need to start writing patches. Most programs are not intended by their authors to be used this way and have no native mechanism for elevating as needed.
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this is the piece of the puzzle missing? Ubuntu 14.04: Add ‘Open As Root/Administrator’ to Context Menu Because if that is what is desired than the question isn't very good.
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Gregow
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
No we gave you the solution: Configure sudo properly for a password-less login. gksudo uses sudo to effect its privilege escalation.

That is not the solution. Instead of pointing out that you are programmers, admins or power user you should try and listen to what I'm telling you.
I want privilege escalation from within the GUI. I know how to configure the sudoers file and polkit to get rid of the password promts. That's not what I'm asking, never was, and I've been quite clear about it.
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregow wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
No we gave you the solution: Configure sudo properly for a password-less login. gksudo uses sudo to effect its privilege escalation.

That is not the solution. Instead of pointing out that you are programmers, admins or power user you should try and listen to what I'm telling you.
I want privilege escalation from within the GUI. I know how to configure the sudoers file and polkit to get rid of the password promts. That's not what I'm asking, never was, and I've been quite clear about it.


Then your question sucks. That is what windows does by default.
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree that you have been clear. That is why I posed the questions I did above. If you answer them, we may be able to move forward.
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
As for your gripe about dropping to a terminal this is really on you. Gentoo is a power user's distro. It allows the end user the maximum amount of leeway to design their system the way they want it. You can configure all your bells, whistles, and privilege escalations to happen from a GUI if you so choose. The issue here is between the keyboard and the chair.

And yet, when asked how to configure it to be used as a power user - the way I want it - you start bitching.

The Doctor wrote:
Then your question sucks. That is what windows does by default.

Right, blame it on the question.

That certainly is what Windows does by default. MacOS works similarly with password prompts. I recently managed to make a custom USB port injector for my MacOS install, without touching the terminal. Now, if only Gentoo could be configured to get the hell out of my way - power user's distro that it is.

Hu wrote:
I disagree that you have been clear. That is why I posed the questions I did above. If you answer them, we may be able to move forward.


[quote="Gregow]I want to be able to run all actions in the GUI with elevated privileges, with the GUI promting med for password when it's needed.[/quote]
Slight typo aside, how is that unclear?

It means that when I open the file manager from within the GUI and try to delete all the files in /log/porn/ I get asked for a password. It means opening nvidia-settings from within the GUI as administrator, and getting asked for a password, or getting asked for password when saving the settings to xorg.conf. It means I can change ownership and permissions on files and folders from directly within the GUI, and get asked a password. It means that whatever action from within the GUI that requires administrative privileges gets a password prompt so that the action can be performed. It means actually working with the f...ing system from a graphical user interface - like personal computers have been able to do since the early 80's.

If that's not clear enough I can't help you.
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is painful to see these kind of interactions. Why do we treat each other within the same community like this?
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregow wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
As for your gripe about dropping to a terminal this is really on you. Gentoo is a power user's distro. It allows the end user the maximum amount of leeway to design their system the way they want it. You can configure all your bells, whistles, and privilege escalations to happen from a GUI if you so choose. The issue here is between the keyboard and the chair.

And yet, when asked how to configure it to be used as a power user - the way I want it - you start bitching.
Ask a stupid question get a stupid answer. You asked how to make Linux behave like windows. Windows doesn't check for a password before granting administrative privileges so that is what everyone told you how to do. You started bitching at us and never bothered to stop and think why we where telling you that, how you could eliminate that confusion, or indeed to actually say that wasn't what you wanted. You can hardly complain that we returned your rudeness.

The solution, by the way, is within the top 5 hits of a google search: Add ‘Open As Root/Administrator’ to Context Menu All you need to do is write a small script and Nautilus will give you that option.
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Gregow
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Incorrect. It was designed to patch a broken OS security model and is marginally successful. And actually, yes it is the same thing as being root. One can become root for a single command using sudo (short for Super User DO) or using su to temporally become another user in a shell. Either way that user escalates their privileges to that of the root user thereby becoming the root user. Widows does the exact same thing and it should never be done carelessly.

What you want to do is a small step above running your entire session as root.

It was a security model never implemented before, so hardly broken (being broken implies something exists in the first place). Aside from that you are exercising weird semantics. Becoming root would imply running the entire session as an administrator, while sudo is limited to the task/process.

Quote:
Umm.... no. That is the way computer systems have been designed from the get go. *nix systems are by far the older and more mature operating systems. Windows is the weird one. If the user is reconfiguring the OS daily then they are doing something very wrong. By definition the user works with their files. By definition everything outside of that user's home directory does not need to be interacted with by the user. The exception would be files shared by other users and that is handled by permissions which the file owner controls anyway.

Things have moved on quite a bit since the 60's. Like for instance, Microsoft happened. They've been dominant on the market for many years now, so I'd argue that's the de facto standard.
However you want to define it the reality is many of us are both users and administrators, at the same time. A system that does not account for that is then, by definition, out of touch with reality.

Quote:
*nix works differently than windows and is more secure. Most of the server population out there is running some form of *nix, usually without virus protection or an issue. Leave a Windows PC online without virus protection for an average of 10 minutes and it will be compromised.

Server admins should know that virus protection compromises security, and that's why they don't use it. The anti-virus software is decades behind on security and often open to simple exploits, which is a serious risk considering they have access to system files. That goes for *nix systems as well where there are cases of anti-virus software being exploited for root access. Properly embedded software like Microsoft's own anti-virus would be an exception here.
For the record, I've had internet access since 94' and running Windows, most of the time, without any virus protection. Strange how that works...

Quote:
Let me correct that for you. Just download and install this virus. Who would want protections against that?

Yeah, because doing it the cumbersome way through a terminal is so much safer...

Quote:
Users do not install software (or fonts). They use them. Actually to do it properly you should roll your own ebuild for the font if you really want it and it isn't in portage already. And once you have done that you will never do it again so why complain about the computer taking a second to make sure you are actually the one doing the instillation and not some attack script?

No, that's not doing it properly. That's doing it the completely detached from reality way. And yet again, I'm not asking how to turn off passwords.

Quote:
All programs come in two parts. One is the core program that does something the other is the part that displays that information. When done correctly it is encapsulated, meaning the two parts don't know about each other. The *nix way of doing things is to write a simple program to do the task with a basic command line interface and then to write another GUI which just displays that information and calls the original program. It actually simplifies things dramatically.

Windows and many "modern" OS have abandoned this approach to their own detriment. The software produced in an "all in one" manor tends to be more buggy than two smaller and functionally equivalent programs.

Yes, somehow the "all in one" manor also tends to sell a lot more. Could it be because people want systems and software that's well integrated and works without jumping through unnecessary hoops? Considering that kind of software owns 97-98% of the desktop market and all of the mobile market I think "the *nix way" has proven quite unsuccessful.
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Gregow
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Gregow wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
As for your gripe about dropping to a terminal this is really on you. Gentoo is a power user's distro. It allows the end user the maximum amount of leeway to design their system the way they want it. You can configure all your bells, whistles, and privilege escalations to happen from a GUI if you so choose. The issue here is between the keyboard and the chair.

And yet, when asked how to configure it to be used as a power user - the way I want it - you start bitching.
Ask a stupid question get a stupid answer. You asked how to make Linux behave like windows. Windows doesn't check for a password before granting administrative privileges so that is what everyone told you how to do. You started bitching at us and never bothered to stop and think why we where telling you that, how you could eliminate that confusion, or indeed to actually say that wasn't what you wanted. You can hardly complain that we returned your rudeness.

The solution, by the way, is within the top 5 hits of a google search: Add ‘Open As Root/Administrator’ to Context Menu All you need to do is write a small script and Nautilus will give you that option.

I've mentioned both Windows and MacOS, and clarified several times. This is rather a case of asking a perfectly reasonable question with several clarifications, and get stupid answers in return. Perhaps if you would have bothered to understand what was being asked I wouldn't have to be so rude.

Yes, that script is a good start. On some distro's it's integrated as it's own menu item, instead of added under scripts. Anyhow, it's a start but it's limited in functionality.
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Browse to /etc/portage

Open make.conf as admin.

Enter password.

Edit and save.

Or, prompt for password when saving.

Same thing with other tasks I might want to perform through the GUI. If that is a security risk, then well... never had an issue with Windows UAC, which is over 10 years old, nor MacOS.


Code:
su


Just open a shell. Type su. use whatever you want via shell. e.g. geany, ...

Gregow wrote:
and get stupid answers in return.


Nothing unusual since a few years on this forum. My main motivation why I dropped supporting gentoo in different ways. As I used to.
When you are bored => There is also a nice youtube video => gentoo, how asholes ruined everything!
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently, you don't want to do anything in a terminal. Okay. Everyone has told you why this is bad, so I'll tell you how to do it.
You will have to use a root terminal to set it up.

Open a terminal, su into root. As root run "mv /home/my-user-name/* /root" user your username instead of "my-user-name"
Then run "rm /home/my-user-name" followed by "ln -s /root /home/my-username". Now, just login as root everytime and have at it.

Don't come here when malware infects your system.

You don't really want Linux. You want a free Windows. Linux is a free Unix.

Just go to Pirate Bay and get your free Windows.
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Hu
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gregow wrote:
And yet, when asked how to configure it to be used as a power user - the way I want it - you start bitching.
I have never before met a power user who wanted that. A true power user, like a true scotsman, would be able to prepare such a setup for himself or herself without our assistance. ;)
Gregow wrote:
Now, if only Gentoo could be configured to get the hell out of my way - power user's distro that it is.
Gentoo is a meta-distribution. Some Gentoo users don't use any of the software you want to behave differently, yet they are still Gentoo users. Your issue is with a specific desktop environment. Gentoo provides you the ability to customize most knobs that upstream makes customizable, and even some that upstream doesn't. It does not provide you the ability to do things that would require code patches that nobody has even written yet. It does provide a way for you to apply such patches should you write them or find someone to write them for you.
Gregow wrote:
Hu wrote:
I disagree that you have been clear. That is why I posed the questions I did above. If you answer them, we may be able to move forward.


Gregow wrote:
I want to be able to run all actions in the GUI with elevated privileges, with the GUI promting med for password when it's needed.

Slight typo aside, how is that unclear?

To me, that phrasing suggests the GUI process should be permanently elevated, but periodically ask for a password when you try to perform a restricted action. This differs from Windows, where the process runs without permission and reacts to a denial by prompting for elevation.
Gregow wrote:
It means that when I open the file manager from within the GUI and try to delete all the files in /log/porn/ I get asked for a password. It means opening nvidia-settings from within the GUI as administrator, and getting asked for a password, or getting asked for password when saving the settings to xorg.conf. It means I can change ownership and permissions on files and folders from directly within the GUI, and get asked a password. It means that whatever action from within the GUI that requires administrative privileges gets a password prompt so that the action can be performed. It means actually working with the f...ing system from a graphical user interface - like personal computers have been able to do since the early 80's.


Part of my post that you failed to quote described exactly this scenario and asked if the described scenario was what you meant by "all." This part of your rant is therefore most useful, as it confirms we do understand what you want. It also confirms that, to the best of my knowledge, none of the programs you seek to use this way have any functionality like what you want. Hence, it affirms my prior suggestion that a patch would be required.

Personally, I hate using GUIs to manage anything that reasonably can be managed from the terminal. I'm much faster with a good tab completer than I am with a mouse.
Gregow wrote:
If that's not clear enough I can't help you.
That's OK. I don't think we can help you, either. We're still trying though, despite your attitude.

Gregow wrote:
I've mentioned both Windows and MacOS, and clarified several times.
You fail to account for the possiblity that some of us have been Linux-only users for so long that you could as well use a telegraph as a reference point. It would be just as lacking in meaning.
Gregow wrote:
This is rather a case of asking a perfectly reasonable question with several clarifications, and get stupid answers in return. Perhaps if you would have bothered to understand what was being asked I wouldn't have to be so rude.
Actually, you can be polite whether we understand your problem or not. Arguably, you should focus on politeness more when we don't understand you the first time, since a rude response is likely to deter any further offers of help. If we understood you the first time and solved your problem, you could be rude afterward without immediate consequence. Here, your rudeness is provoking other users to offer replies that are technically accurate, but snippy and do not implement the outcome you seek.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snkmoorthy wrote:
It is painful to see these kind of interactions. Why do we treat each other within the same community like this?
Neatly summarizing my sentiments on the matter.

Roman_Gruber wrote:
Quote:

Browse to /etc/portage

Open make.conf as admin.

Enter password.

Edit and save.

Or, prompt for password when saving.

Same thing with other tasks I might want to perform through the GUI. If that is a security risk, then well... never had an issue with Windows UAC, which is over 10 years old, nor MacOS.


Code:
su


Just open a shell. Type su. use whatever you want via shell. e.g. geany, ...

Gregow wrote:
and get stupid answers in return.


Nothing unusual since a few years on this forum. My main motivation why I dropped supporting gentoo in different ways. As I used to.
When you are bored => There is also a nice youtube video => gentoo, how asholes ruined everything!
No need to be one of them, as has been noted that is not what Gregow is after, a partial solution has already been found, a more complete solution will probably require nontrivial patching of the relevant packages.

Fair warning to all concerned, this topic is ripe for locking.
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