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Princess Nell
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Firefox 52 has landed Reply with quote

So, has the Gentoo maintainer taken any steps to re-enable ALSA support? I see nothing along those lines in the ebuild directory.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1345661
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fcl
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't test it right now but looking at the firefox-52.0.1 ebuild, it does seem that the maintainer(s) overlooked the ALSA/Pulse situation.

There needs to be a alsa/pulseaudio USE that flips the support, ie. mozconfig_use_enable alsa (IIRC)

edit: firefox's ebuild has EAPI=6 so it should be easy to patch locally
edit2: btw, firefox-52 uses mozconfig-v65.eclass (located in /usr/portage/eclass/) that has mozconfig_use_enable pulseaudio but nothing about alsa.. it should be enabled here by the maintainers methinks..

edit3: I made a bug report, https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=613370
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Cthulhu666
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just re-emerged Firefox 52 with USEFLAG "pulseaudio" disabled and thus sound was restored. :)

I want to wholeheartedly thank the Gentoo devs for making this possible.

But what do we do in the future? The Mozilla devs seem committed to destroying the usefullness of Firefox by forcing their users to use pulseaudio. Many Linux users have battled with PA and lost. It's just too much trouble and too little reward (in most cases no reward, unless you count wasted resources and sound latency as rewards...), to be worth the bother. Will Firefox be forked into a usable version with ALSA support, will the Gentoo devs patch ALSA support back in or will we be forced to choosing another browser?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've used "apulse" to run Skype. I'm not sure what apulse does, but in at least that one situation it fills the need. It almost seems that pulseaudio should be a virtual, but be satisfied by either pulseaudio or apluse.

Along what line, what would possibly go wrong if my session were to be started with apulse? The idea would be to provide the service session wide, but somehow I'll be that's not what would happen.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apulse was designed as a workaround especially for Skype. I tried it, when I wanted to get Tombraider running, whose sound support is also limited to Pulseaudio. There was no chance to get it working with apulse.

I guess, apulse is just a kind of wrapper, which provides the necessary Pulseaudio interfaces, needed by Skype.

Regarding Firefox:
I remember the OSS support removal some years ago. At this time, I was using OSS4. Firefox and Seamonkey used (still use?) the same buildconfig files. So the patch to re-enable OSS was the same for both applications. The OSS support was (and maybe is) still available for the BSD version. It was only disabled in the Linux version. I guess, we have a similar situation now.

Nevertheless after some months of patching I gave up and switched to Alsa. Hopefully Pulseaudio won't supersede Alsa completely. Pulseaudio has to much flaws.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just been looking at the firefox bug linked above, and the general response seems to be, "Why don't you want to install pulseaudio?" (You IDIOT!!!)

Since they're not going to listen to preferences, there is another reason. (I think.) JACK. Pulseaudio simply doesn't meet the needs of professional audio - JACK is for that. I just looked, and there appear to be ways to layer pulseaudio on top of JACK, but they might be beyond the abilities of casual users.

It might be a good idea if someone referenced JACK in the bug.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny thing happened just now - I opened firefox after updating and it gave me a nag bar saying “audio might not work without required pulseaudio” blah blah blah... which is already running. Good software, Mozilla.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mitigating factor... Some time back I read that pulseaudio is much less troublesome these days. Some would say that happened after L.P. lost interest in it and passed it off to someone else. I'm much more likely to succumb to pulseaudio given that consideration. I still keep avahi off of my machines. The mere concept of "service discovery" gives me the willies. It seems that the concept is to assist MITM.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

I believe 'apulse' should work, as it has been updated for this exact purpose.

I don't use Firefox these days, but I have 'bin-52.0.1' for the occasional testing. As such, I did give apulse a go, but it doesn't seem to be doing its thing here. The version available via Portage at this time (0.1.9) isn't quite up to 'master', but I did try patching in the changes, which so far didn't seem to help.

Regardless, I'd suggest trying it out. :]

Ant P. wrote:
Funny thing happened just now - I opened firefox after updating and it gave me a nag bar saying “audio might not work without required pulseaudio” blah blah blah... which is already running. Good software, Mozilla.

Even more fun(?) is that I tried the 'Learn how' button to see what it does, and it leads me to a “The page you are trying to access was not found. Please check your URL for typos and try again.”
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
I believe 'apulse' should work, as it has been updated for this exact purpose.

I don't use Firefox these days, but I have 'bin-52.0.1' for the occasional testing. As such, I did give apulse a go, but it doesn't seem to be doing its thing here. The version available via Portage at this time (0.1.9) isn't quite up to 'master', but I did try patching in the changes, which so far didn't seem to help.

Regardless, I'd suggest trying it out. :]

Ant P. wrote:
Funny thing happened just now - I opened firefox after updating and it gave me a nag bar saying “audio might not work without required pulseaudio” blah blah blah... which is already running. Good software, Mozilla.

Even more fun(?) is that I tried the 'Learn how' button to see what it does, and it leads me to a “The page you are trying to access was not found. Please check your URL for typos and try again.”


I'm using the media-sound/apulse-0.1.9 from portage now with www-client/firefox-bin-52.0.1

$ apulse firefox-bin => don't work for me
$ apulse /usr/bin/firefox-bin => don't work for me

BUT:

$ apulse /opt/firefox/firefox => work just fine :)
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

ff11 wrote:
I'm using the media-sound/apulse-0.1.9 from portage now with www-client/firefox-bin-52.0.1

$ apulse firefox-bin => don't work for me
$ apulse /usr/bin/firefox-bin => don't work for me

BUT:

$ apulse /opt/firefox/firefox => work just fine :)

Right you are!

Actually looking into '/usr/bin/firefox-bin' probably explains why:

Code:
#!/bin/sh
unset LD_PRELOAD
LD_LIBRARY_PATH="/opt/firefox/"
GTK_PATH=/usr/lib/gtk-2.0/
exec /opt/firefox/firefox "$@"

So if the last line of this file has something like this instead, it will also work:

Code:
exec apulse /opt/firefox/firefox "$@"

Not sure I would suggest this as anything anyone should do, but it's an observation I made nevertheless. :]
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too have run an ALSA only system for years.
It seems like the devs at Firefox are open to distros supporting ALSA:
[url]https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.platform/jRAqSTri66I[/url]
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtles wrote:
It seems like the devs at Firefox are open to distros supporting ALSA:
[url]https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.platform/jRAqSTri66I[/url]

Can you point at any distributions actually doing that, or are you stepping up to maintain the ALSA backend for us? Perhaps add full duplex and 5.1 support to it?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leio wrote:
turtles wrote:
It seems like the devs at Firefox are open to distros supporting ALSA:
[url]https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.platform/jRAqSTri66I[/url]

Can you point at any distributions actually doing that, or are you stepping up to maintain the ALSA backend for us? Perhaps add full duplex and 5.1 support to it?




Well I would not do it in their new Rust programming language. :lol:
I wonder what the Red Hat distros will do as I thought Jaroslav was employed there?
I am also not sure what they mean by ALSA not being maintained?
I am pretty sure Jaroslav still runs the project and I think it has plenty of current development so I am not sure how they get to call it unmaintained?

Would not ALSA already support full duplex and 5.1 if PA does?
I am pretty sure anything in PA would have to already be in ALSA as PA just extends ALSA.
http://alsa.opensrc.org/SurroundSound
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5174304/alsa-full-duplex-c-example

But yeah sure why not.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: €°(((>< Reply with quote

turtles wrote:
I am also not sure what they mean by ALSA not being maintained?

I would /guess/ they're not actually talking about the ALSA project, but the ALSA backend of Firefox.

Could be wrong, however. :]
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:39 am    Post subject: Re: €°(((>< Reply with quote

Chiitoo wrote:
turtles wrote:
I am also not sure what they mean by ALSA not being maintained?

I would /guess/ they're not actually talking about the ALSA project, but the ALSA backend of Firefox.

Could be wrong, however. :]


Its a strange "big data" problem, apparently Ubnutu uses PA (Pulse Audio) by default and also by default enables some sort of Firefox "telemetry", so now the firefox devs base their understanding of "Linux" on what "telemetry" reports back about users systems. Since its mostly Ubuntu enabling this firefox devs think 99% of "Linux" systems use PA and therefore ALSA is old cruft.
Reading the FF dev thread

it becomes obvious few Firefox audio devs if any actually run Linux.
I am not even sure how to enable this "telemetry" under Gentoo.

[Moderator edit: fixed URL tag. Google Groups uses nasty Javascript navigation based on a mangled anchor instead of a freestanding fetchable URL. The embedded ! conflicts with the implicit URL quoting used by the forum. -Hu]
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enabling telemetry is a Firefox config option.

One problem is that many "advanced" users, including these who intentionally don't use Pulseaudio, often disable this kind of data collection. I do, anyway.
Another problem is that Lubuntu, for example, by default, doesn't provide Pulseaudio, _and_ turns Firefox's telemetry off. So the "one-percent" is problably largely underestimated.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm running the 45 version right now and using oss4 without any problems.

Will the 52 version run with oss4?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtles wrote:
I too have run an ALSA only system for years.
It seems like the devs at Firefox are open to distros supporting ALSA:
[url]https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.platform/jRAqSTri66I[/url]


So it seems the justification is that they want to add 5.1 support to pulseaudio and they don't want to work on anything that doesn't support 5.1 sound.

Seems rather short sighted, as I would imagine the number of people that actually use 5.1 sound on their computer is very small.
(not saying computers don't support it, I'm talking about actual use by people)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
turtles wrote:
I too have run an ALSA only system for years.
It seems like the devs at Firefox are open to distros supporting ALSA:
[url]https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.platform/jRAqSTri66I[/url]
So it seems the justification is that they want to add 5.1 support to pulseaudio and they don't want to work on anything that doesn't support 5.1 sound.
Fine with me: Dolby Digital with Linux and ALSA
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course ALSA can support 5.1 and full duplex when PA works with it. As I said, it's about the firefox cubeb components ALSA backend. It is not maintained and therefore also lacks support for new features of cubeb under that backend. Features such as full duplex (think webrtc), 5.1 surround sound and content sandboxing. Eventually something in firefox makes these features non-optional and alsa cubeb backend won't be acceptable at all, unless someone from the community actually implements the necessary improvements. Meanwhile if you opt to build firefox with alsa instead of pulseaudio, you might miss out on these features and then blame Firefox or Gentoo for it.
See e.g https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1345661#c83
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Seems rather short sighted, as I would imagine the number of people that actually use 5.1 sound on their computer is very small.

HTPCs and gaming stations are not as rare as you imagine.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll ask again, Will the 52 version run with oss4?
Does sound work with the bsd variants?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syl20 wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Seems rather short sighted, as I would imagine the number of people that actually use 5.1 sound on their computer is very small.

HTPCs and gaming stations are not as rare as you imagine.


I'm using a HTPC for about 5 years now. Installed on that thing is Kodi. It's connected to an AVR via Toslink (and HDMI).

The last thing I want to have installed on that computer is Pulseaudio. It's an alsa-only system without resampling and dmix to ensure bit-perfect sound output. Pulseaudio isn't even able to do bit-perfect sound. You can't ensure the signal won't be resampled in Pulseaudio.

So at least in my eyes Pulseaudio and HTPC are mutually exclusive.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syl20 wrote:
Enabling telemetry is a Firefox config option.

One problem is that many "advanced" users, including these who intentionally don't use Pulseaudio, often disable this kind of data collection. I do, anyway.
Another problem is that Lubuntu, for example, by default, doesn't provide Pulseaudio, _and_ turns Firefox's telemetry off. So the "one-percent" is problably largely underestimated.

Yeah interesting
So I dont have anything under the "data choices tab"
Looking in [url]about:telemetry[/url]
did not turn up anything indicating I was using ALSA.
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