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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | Nonsense, when someone first starts using linux they are something of a burden to the community (asking questions, having various expectations, etc, etc), however the community still nurtures them with the expectation that they too will go on to contribute in some way, they are not excluded simply because they happen to be without the requisite skills to exchange/contribute. So, it is this that is the socio-economic backbone of FOSS, it is the support provided within the community as a whole that creates the collaborative nexus that fosters the collaborative process, not the level at which any particular actor is contributing. If this were the case then the barrier to entry would be so high as to prevent potential collaborators from getting a foot on the ladder. |
| rich0 wrote: | | Nobody is suggesting that new users be excluded from using Gentoo or that there be a ban on answering their questions. |
rich0 ... no, but that isn't what the above (unexpurgated) paragraph is in reference to, namely "it is a collaboration among those who contribute".
| rich0 wrote: | | However, I think it is incorrect to think that Gentoo's priorities will ever get decided by a vote, even a vote of the developers, let alone a vote of the end users. I'm on the Gentoo Council and I can't really dictate what people spend their time working on. |
So far no mention has been made about what form of governance "for the community, by the community" implies, or how we might go about making decisions, the entire question, and focus, has been on the 'principles' involved, and who is being served (namely, "the community").
| rich0 wrote: | | The Foundation could to the extent that they could afford to hire people to do development work, but so could anybody else who has money. (Seriously, if you happen to be a billionaire just hire 25 people to spend the time to become Gentoo devs and you can advance any part of the distro you care to.) |
They, or I, don't need to hire people, we have volunteers, that is the kind of "community based" operation we are. So, when the charter states "for the community, by the community" it doesn't exclude financial contributions, but it doesn't make it a pre-requisite, or make it so that by not having done so the community can not expect those volunteers work for the community (and not themselves).
| rich0 wrote: | | This isn't about making Gentoo into some kind of exclusive organization/etc, or saying that Gentoo is already such a thing. I'm just talking about the reality that Gentoo developers tend to scratch their own itches. Nobody is preventing them from scratching your itch, it just is the nature of things like this that people will put their own needs first. |
I've already explained why this is contrary to the charter (the obligations that volunteers agree to work under), and why the expectation that what volunteers do serve the community, is a reasonable one. That is the principle involved, so any appeal to "reality" here is moot at best, if not self-serving.
| rich0 wrote: | | The developers maintaining organizational control isn't about keeping out the unwashed masses. It is about ensuring that the organization stay grounded in this reality. |
Again, we haven't been discussing the type governance model involved, but certainly when you demote users to non-contributing members (as you've done), and attempt keep them as far from any sort of decision making process as possible, then it does seem that they are regarded as persona non grata.
| rich0 wrote: | | If you put some crusader determined to impose their vision in charge of the Foundation, about all that will do is cause a fork, and that would be incredibly disruptive. Unless you literally hand that crusader enough money to replace all the existing volunteer effort, they're going to tend to be rejected by the volunteers if they don't share the same vision. And if they do share the same vision then there is no conflict in the first place, the existing developers would probably happily elect that crusader without any need to change how the organizational structures work. |
You're placing the cart before the horse, this is how gentoo is constituted (in principle), it has nothing to do with "imposing" anything, this is how it is structured (again, in principle). The "crusader", and "vision" in the above are the foundation itself, and terms set out in its establishment.
| rich0 wrote: | | That is why I think this stuff is important. The tail can't wag the dog. You can line up all the developers against the wall, but that still leaves you with nobody building the code you want them to build. It isn't about taking joy in telling users that they can't have the things they want. It is just being honest about the reality that if you want something sometimes you just have to be the one that makes it happen. |
In this case it is the dog (the gentoo foundation ... and the community it institutes) can't wag the tail (the developers), you've made that clear, the troubling part is that you don't realise it.
best ... khay |
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rich0
Developer
Joined: 15 Sep 2002
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | rich0,
| rich0 wrote: | | Uh, before the charter was drafted, there was no Foundation. The owners exist before the corporation. The initial owners are the ones who create the charter of a corporation. It sets forth why they're pooling their resources to create the corporation in the first place. |
The initial owner was Gentoo Technologies Inc. Gentoo has always had an incorporated body behind it. In the Gentoo Technologies Inc. days drobbins was both the owner of Gentoo Technologies Inc. and the Chief Architect of the distro. Devs didn't get a say in how Gentoo Technologies Inc. was operated. It was actually a for profit entity operated for the profit of drobbins. |
Certainly. That is why I said owners and not developers. |
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1clue
Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2569
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| rich0 wrote: | | khayyam wrote: | | when someone first starts using linux they are something of a burden to the community (asking questions, having various expectations, etc, etc), however the community still nurtures them with the expectation that they too will go on to contribute in some way, they are not excluded simply because they happen to be without the requisite skills to exchange/contribute. |
Nobody is suggesting that new users be excluded from using Gentoo or that there be a ban on answering their questions.
However, I think it is incorrect to think that Gentoo's priorities will ever get decided by a vote, even a vote of the developers, let alone a vote of the end users. I'm on the Gentoo Council and I can't really dictate what people spend their time working on. The Foundation could to the extent that they could afford to hire people to do development work, but so could anybody else who has money. (Seriously, if you happen to be a billionaire just hire 25 people to spend the time to become Gentoo devs and you can advance any part of the distro you care to.)
This isn't about making Gentoo into some kind of exclusive organization/etc, or saying that Gentoo is already such a thing.
I'm just talking about the reality that Gentoo developers tend to scratch their own itches. Nobody is preventing them from scratching your itch, it just is the nature of things like this that people will put their own needs first.
The developers maintaining organizational control isn't about keeping out the unwashed masses. It is about ensuring that the organization stay grounded in this reality. If you put some crusader determined to impose their vision in charge of the Foundation, about all that will do is cause a fork, and that would be incredibly disruptive. Unless you literally hand that crusader enough money to replace all the existing volunteer effort, they're going to tend to be rejected by the volunteers if they don't share the same vision. And if they do share the same vision then there is no conflict in the first place, the existing developers would probably happily elect that crusader without any need to change how the organizational structures work.
That is why I think this stuff is important. The tail can't wag the dog. You can line up all the developers against the wall, but that still leaves you with nobody building the code you want them to build. It isn't about taking joy in telling users that they can't have the things they want. It is just being honest about the reality that if you want something sometimes you just have to be the one that makes it happen. |
This is about as concise and accurate a description of real-world Open Source software and projects as I have ever heard. You could substitute "Gentoo" with just about any traditional (non-corporate) distro or FOSS project and remain accurate. |
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withinboredom
n00b
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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This whole thread really saddens me.
One thing I've noticed over the years, across many businesses and software: Developers don't care what the users need/want, only what they think the users need. This frustrates me, and maybe because I don't fall into the upcoming "entitled generation".
In the second or third reply of this thread, one of the developers flat out said they wouldn't fix an obvious bug because it contained more than one bug. What?! I'm just blown away. I have no words for how that makes me feel. When you go to the doctor and tell them you have a broken arm and a fever, do they turn you away because you have more than one issue? No, they look at the problem as a whole, break it up and, solve what they are able to. I feel pity for the user to have to deal with that and contempt for the developer that is obviously an inexperienced developer.
From the attitude that is expressed in this thread, it is plain that Gentoo could be killing itself, not just dying. The community is what drives any product, period. If a community doesn't exist, do you think they'd still make iPhone's? ... maybe they'd still be making Blackberry's?
The developers have plainly forgotten this, and/or have not realized the user's are their bosses which they either volunteered for, or are getting paid by, indirectly. Users open issues, if you do not address them, the user will leave, unhappy and tell other's of their experience. If less people come, then there will be less chance a user will join the ranks of the maintainers. It is a cycle; one that must be fed positively if it is to work. Simply saying: "if you try to get me to work, F U, I'll just fork it, I don't owe you anything" ... that's not the answer. That is never the answer. If I could vote for anything in the foundation, it would be to remove some of you from it.
I was actually thinking of becoming a developer for Gentoo... You'd gain 10+ years of humbled experience in Linux administration and a software developer, someone who actually knows how to use ticket systems, and, I actually realize that the users are my boss, one way or another. I don't know how I would feel about working with you guys after reading this thread though... |
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8935
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Don't form your opinion about the developers based on a forum thread, especially when it contains highly concentrated doses of khayyam. When you're dev, you are entirely free to base your work on polls you conduct in the forums. Most people instead like to work on things they like, though, in their free time, and those interests will overlap with parts of the user base as well. Ideally then you have as many devs with matching interests as users, but very often that is just not possible.
| withinboredom wrote: | | In the second or third reply of this thread, one of the developers flat out said they wouldn't fix an obvious bug because it contained more than one bug. |
Citation needed. |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| asturm wrote: | | Don't form your opinion about the developers based on a forum thread, especially when it contains highly concentrated doses of khayyam. |
astrum ... all you have there is an attempt at blacking my argument with a vague, and illusive, association.
best ... khay |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| withinboredom wrote: | | I was actually thinking of becoming a developer for Gentoo... You'd gain 10+ years of humbled experience in Linux administration and a software developer, someone who actually knows how to use ticket systems, and, I actually realize that the users are my boss, one way or another. I don't know how I would feel about working with you guys after reading this thread though... |
If you really were considering becoming a developer, then I would highly encourage you to do so. To use an unfortunate phrase, "be the change you want to see." Other than a little time, you wouldn't lose anything. Worst case is that you decide to stop being a dev. Best case is that some packages needing attention get it.
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| withinboredom wrote: | | This whole thread really saddens me. |
I know how you feel..
| Quote: | | I actually realize that the users are my boss, one way or another. |
Thank you
As you alluded to above, it's inexperienced "developers" who don't yet grok that.
| Quote: | | I don't know how I would feel about working with you guys after reading this thread though... |
If you have a few hours a month, and a package or two you like using which you want looked after (better, or at all) than I'd echo pjp, and say: just go for it.
You can ignore any idiots, who will show up everywhere on t'internet, and just do whatever you want to work on, and you know you'll have supportive users, on the forums if nowhere else (they'll rally round on bugzilla, but that can feel more isolated.)
After all, Gentoo is all about you scratching your itch, so it's perfectly acceptable to focus on your little spot, and many do just that. |
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stephan-t
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 12 May 2014
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: |
x11-drivers/xf86-input-{mouse,keyboard,synaptics} ... the last stable update breaks input when no udev is installed (or running, I'm not sure). That makes sys-apps/busybox[mdev] no longer an option if you want xorg (sans {e,}udev).
best ... khay |
At the fresh install cannot rid udev and no longer available mdev device manager? OpenRC always says please convert the deprecated shell-scripts to openrc-run, in new version. |
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Roman_Gruber
Advocate
Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 3846
Location: Austro Bavaria
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| Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| stephan-t wrote: | | OpenRC always says please convert the deprecated shell-scripts to openrc-run, in new version. |
A known issue, ignore it. I asked years ago the same question here
As long my stuff works i do not care for htose messages. I have a few lines since a few months which are just ingore it. |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: |
x11-drivers/xf86-input-{mouse,keyboard,synaptics} ... the last stable update breaks input when no udev is installed (or running, I'm not sure). That makes sys-apps/busybox[mdev] no longer an option if you want xorg (sans {e,}udev).
best ... khay |
Not true. I am running latest stable with mdev and without udev/eudev
| Code: | gentoo ~ # equery d udev
* These packages depend on udev:
net-print/hplip-3.16.3 (kernel_linux ? virtual/udev)
sys-apps/hwids-20150717-r1 (udev ? >=virtual/udev-206)
sys-block/gparted-0.26.1 (hfs ? virtual/udev)
sys-fs/udev-init-scripts-27 (>=virtual/udev-180)
virtual/dev-manager-0 (virtual/udev)
virtual/libudev-215-r1 (!systemd ? >=sys-fs/udev-208-r1:0/0
[abi_x86_32(-)?,abi_x86_64(-)?,abi_x86_x32(-)?,abi_mips_n32(-)?,
abi_mips_n64(-)?,abi_mips_o32(-)?,abi_ppc_32(-)?,abi_ppc_64(-)?,
abi_s390_32(-)?,abi_s390_64(-)?,static-libs?])
virtual/udev-215 (!systemd ? >=sys-fs/udev-208-r1)
x11-base/xorg-server-1.18.4 (udev ? >=virtual/udev-150)
x11-drivers/xf86-video-ati-7.7.0 (udev ? virtual/udev)
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If you use the global flag "-udev" you can run the latest stable xorg. The only reason for udev being there is for hotplugging. One can also run hplip if you modify virtual/udev to your own local version. It's all for hotplugging which you must support to run mdev. It's just not an official option here on RedHat-Gentoo.
Broke a line or few, to make the forum layout behave. —Chiitoo |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | khayyam wrote: | | x11-drivers/xf86-input-{mouse,keyboard,synaptics} ... the last stable update breaks input when no udev is installed (or running, I'm not sure). That makes sys-apps/busybox[mdev] no longer an option if you want xorg (sans {e,}udev). |
Not true. I am running latest stable with mdev and without udev/eudev |
Tony0945 ... in my case there is no input (from mouse, keyboard, or synaptics) input is completely locked (no pwr button or VT switch even). Nothing in Xorg.0.log suggests why (or any error), and so as I've not seen any similar reports I've put it down to the fact that I don't have udev (installed, or in use) and have rolled back to the working (but now GLSA'd) versions.
| Tony0945 wrote: | | If you use the global flag "-udev" you can run the latest stable xorg. The only reason for udev being there is for hotplugging [...] |
I not only have USE="-udev" but it's not installed. I have nothing that requires it to build, or run. I also know how to manage device hotplugging via mdev, and how to configure x11 for mouse, keyboard, and synaptics. It's currently working fine, only I can't update to the latest stable packages without my x11 session locking up on 'startx'. I've not had a lot of time to dig any deeper, but I'm fairly sure that udev/libudev is the reason why its occuring.
best ... khay |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | It's currently working fine, only I can't update to the latest stable packages without my x11 session locking up on 'startx'. |
It's working fine for me with xdm. I only use startx on new installs.
EDIT: I have had the strange result that if I run shutdown from a non-X virtual terminal it hangs. Still it shuts down OK from mate-session menu or if I run /etc/init.d/xdm stop first. I attribute that bug to xdm. |
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DragonairSnares
n00b
Joined: 29 Jan 2017
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Gentoo is dying - a wakeup call |
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| mv wrote: | I am aware that there have been dozens of threads announcing the dead of gentoo.
However, I am afraid that the situation was never as serious as it is now 
The situation has become really dramatic: The lack of manpower is visible in every corner. Almost the only maintained packages left are those from system, and even there maintenance is visibly going down (e.g. the last gcc and glibc bumps were taking several months).
Some examples of missing maintenance in projects crucial for any mainstream distribution:
- TeX-live is apparentely abandoned by gentoo since half a year, probably longer: The bug for bumping is completely unanswered so far.
- Important projects like palemoon are not in the main tree. (At least there is an overlay, but not official.)
- Important desktops like trinity are completely missing. Despite this seems to be actively maintained and there are packages of this desktop for any mainstream distribution (even for minor ones), it is ignored by gentoo. There once was a thread which points to some overlay. This overlay still seems to be maintained, but it is mainly a live overlay and so inofficial that it cannot even be found through standard means (layman or zugaina overlay list). Of course, there exists a corresponding (unanswered) request for inclusion into gentoo.
- sci-mathematics/* is practically only available through overlays if at all
- dev-java/* is practically only available through overlays if at all.
This is certainly an incomplete list of examples. It does not include the huge lists of packages which have been removed from the tree just in the previous weeks due to lack of maintenance.
Summary: Some essential packages for a major distribution are not available at all, and some only through overlays, sometimes even so inofficial that they are difficult to trust. The lack of TeX-Live has become a serious obstacle to use Gentoo for daily work in the academic sector. Probably the lack of Trinity is also considered essential by some people. And the lack of safe browsers like palemoon is perhaps dramatic for everybody. Specialized developers (like for java) can practically not use gentoo, either. Quite soon, gentoo will lose the corresponding user base if nothing changes.
Can gentoo change the situation? I really don't know, and I don't have suggestions which might save gentoo, but perhaps others do have.
That crucial packages like texlive are unmaintained simply must not happen for a mainstream distribution like gentoo (especially since the packaging of other distributions like from Debian could to an essential part be used here). |
I think the issue with a lot of distros is the fact that they aren't that innovative as they use to be. I transferred from using Arch. The thing that I have ALWAYS done with Gentoo linux is be innovative. Whether it be a reiser4fs experiment (which broke badly) to x32 to save 30% ram (which was successfully compiled). The point is that if you want innovation and to spread the future, try something new. One of my friends actually told me "why are you reinventing the wheel" while I was trying to tell him about my experiments. The goal I was trying to achive was to make the 64 bit compile the linux kernel but with the 32 bit integers, pointers, etc... to achive 30% less ram usage then ran into cmake compile errors. I also tried a clang linux port, but that didn't go very well either.
I'm not saying that gentoo isn't a good operating system, but what I am saying is to try something new. and for the goodness sakes, it takes time to develop a patch people, but at the same time, actually care. I've seen developers (not here) be very snobby and that's when the blame game happens of "oh well you fix it then" on a poorly documented piece of code.
I've always seen gentoo as an experimental OS, so I've never really touched it that much. The only thing I see that's being experimented with in huge depth is openrc. Otherwise I don't really see the point of compiling everything from scratch OTHER THAN for architecture and hardware reasons. |
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Fitzcarraldo
Advocate
Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Posts: 2034
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Gentoo is dying - a wakeup call |
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| DragonairSnares wrote: | | Otherwise I don't really see the point of compiling everything from scratch OTHER THAN for architecture and hardware reasons. |
And flexibility, such as removing code you don't need/want, or adding code that pre-built packages in a binary distro don't provide.
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rich0
Developer
Joined: 15 Sep 2002
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Gentoo is dying - a wakeup call |
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| DragonairSnares wrote: | | I'm not saying that gentoo isn't a good operating system, but what I am saying is to try something new. and for the goodness sakes, it takes time to develop a patch people, but at the same time, actually care. I've seen developers (not here) be very snobby and that's when the blame game happens of "oh well you fix it then" on a poorly documented piece of code. |
IMO experimental ideas is one of the areas where Gentoo tends to excel. While we may not have anybody working on java ebuilds, it wouldn't surprise me if next week somebody announces a complete implementation of the kernel in dalvik. Would anybody ever want to use it? Probably not. Would that stop somebody from working on it? Probably not. As I recall the x32 ABI was pioneered on Gentoo. |
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Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3339
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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It's sad to see topic like this up in here. :(
I'd propably submit ebuilds, but I haven't found enough documentation to create one propely. I've managed to create one for my local overlay. But I still lack much of the knowledge. For example there are many functions one can use. I figured that out by looking inside of few ebuilds. But I haven't found (enough) documentation. It may be there, but at least I haven't found it.
The thing I liked about Arch was the ease of creating packages by writing simple PKGBUILD. ebuilds are much more complicated, but that's expected since Gentoo has much more freedom to cuntomize the OS (USE-flags, profiles...).
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54216
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Zucca,
Did you find the Gentoo Developer Manual?
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Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | The thing I liked about Arch was the ease of creating packages by writing simple PKGBUILD. ebuilds are much more complicated |
I don't know how easy it is with arch, but I think writing an ebuild is as easy as it can be: The idea is essentially to write down just the commands which you would write on a command line to install into a sandbox (and then a few things which cannot be done automatically like proper dependencies or the license). Yes, you certainly want to install in a sandbox to avoid that something is landing on the system by accident (cluttering the system or even destroying something). Adding USE-flags is then some fine-tuning of the configure option.
Things become only ugly if upstream is not nice for this approach: If the build system requires patching to support a sandbox, if several API versions are needed which upstream insists of installing under the same name, etc. The mentioned texlive is one of those cases, because they think that they should override distributions, because these update too slowly. (It is sad to see that at least for quite a while they were proven to be right..) |
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fedeliallalinea
Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 30888
Location: here
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Zucca wrote: | | The thing I liked about Arch was the ease of creating packages by writing simple PKGBUILD. ebuilds are much more complicated |
Maybe for the initial comprension is a little bit complicated, but when understands the basic mechanism how to writing an ebuild (eclass, profiles, use flag,...) I think is more productive compared to PKGBUILD.
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Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3339
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:37 am Post subject: |
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I'll start RTFM.
I hope this time I can create something from scratch.
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54216
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Zucca,
I'm told (I don't really do ebuilds) that its like the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy entry for Planet Earth.
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Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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Zucca
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 3339
Location: Rasi, Finland
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Neddy,
still worth a shot. I have only time to lose.
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Gentoo IRC channels reside on Libera.Chat.
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ct85711
Veteran
Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 1791
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't forget you can always attempt make an ebuild and posting it on the forum to have it reviewed. The worst that can happen, is we pick it apart and tell you everything you did wrong; but a lot of times they will also explain why too. |
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L. Vmbrius
n00b
Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 14
Location: 中国，西安
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I strongly agree with OP.
Matplotlib 2.0.0 was released more than month ago, bump rquest was made at same time.
It is still in unconfirmed state and not added to tree.
I simply renamed 1.5.0 ebuild to 2.0.0, digest, emerge - and it works.
So, situation is very bad even for packages which requre almost no efforts!
Not to mention openblas bump pending for more that year I think. |
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