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HungGarTiger
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
Required by whom for what?


As this thread was started about maintaining packages, I was talking specifically about that.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HungGarTiger wrote:
desultory wrote:
Required by whom for what?


As this thread was started about maintaining packages, I was talking specifically about that.
You might find the Gentoo Proxy Maintainer Project helpful.
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helecho
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
It was dying, but this thread has motivated it to go for a walk.

From my user's perspective, Gentoo is very hard to use because it encourages the deepening of technical fields. In the past, the French-speaking forum was animated by skilled and cheerful users.
The knowledge exchanged at this time is surely always appreciable but reading takes a long time.

The next step is "write kernel drivers" (lol)!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

helecho wrote:

The next step is "write kernel drivers" (lol)!
Good, we've got one ambitious guy here ;)
No, really, there will always be a lot of things to do for those brave enough to get started.
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HungGarTiger
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
HungGarTiger wrote:
desultory wrote:
Required by whom for what?


As this thread was started about maintaining packages, I was talking specifically about that.
You might find the Gentoo Proxy Maintainer Project helpful.


Thanks for this, I'll give it a read tonight. Also, just curious what other ways are there for people to get involved that don't require programming/maintaining packages?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HungGarTiger wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
HungGarTiger wrote:
desultory wrote:
Required by whom for what?


As this thread was started about maintaining packages, I was talking specifically about that.
You might find the Gentoo Proxy Maintainer Project helpful.


Thanks for this, I'll give it a read tonight. Also, just curious what other ways are there for people to get involved that don't require programming/maintaining packages?


Documentation, support, server maintenance, testing, all came to mind in the first 30 seconds or so.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why this reminds me Hodscha Nasreddin? He charged the ruler of Bukhara lots of money for teaching a donkey to speak, he was given 10 years for that. When asked why he is not worried, the task is impossible and his head will roll when the donkey won't speak he responded: No worries, in ten years one of us will die, me, the ruler or the donkey.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
No worries, in ten years one of us will die, me, the ruler or the donkey.
IIRC also "And who knows? Perchance the donkey will learn to speak after all!"
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything is possible, true. Although in Bukhara case it was extremely unlikely the ruler would live that long. It so happened those rulers were victims of accidental poisonings and stabbings all the time.
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HungGarTiger
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
Why this reminds me Hodscha Nasreddin? He charged the ruler of Bukhara lots of money for teaching a donkey to speak, he was given 10 years for that. When asked why he is not worried, the task is impossible and his head will roll when the donkey won't speak he responded: No worries, in ten years one of us will die, me, the ruler or the donkey.


Am I the donkey in this analogy? :lol:
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desultory
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
HungGarTiger wrote:
As this thread was started about maintaining packages, I was talking specifically about that.
You might find the Gentoo Proxy Maintainer Project helpful.
In addition, if you use, or are comfortable trying, IRC there are several channels which could be of use if you want to get into package maintenance. If you are just getting started in working with ebuilds, I would suggest trying #gentoo-dev-help, on freenode, as a first stop.

1clue wrote:
HungGarTiger wrote:
Thanks for this, I'll give it a read tonight. Also, just curious what other ways are there for people to get involved that don't require programming/maintaining packages?


Documentation, support, server maintenance, testing, all came to mind in the first 30 seconds or so.
While server maintenance type access is somewhat more restricted, for obvious reasons, the others are very much open options. In addition, IRC ops, forum moderation, wiki maintenance (aside from writing the documentation itself which was already mentioned), blog maintenance, bug wrangling, and writing GLSAs are all options that are available though not necessarily actively recruiting at any given moment.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hu wrote:
It was dying, but this thread has motivated it to go for a walk.

It's not fooling anyone, you know.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo lives forever - deb,rpm, and arch distro users are dumb and should be hated lol

Just a Joke but I reccently compared some distros like arch, ubuntu and debian - debian and mint were pretty fine but with the others I just ran into problems...it was a nightmare and debian outdated in stable and testing/sid is another thing. Mint has no option for dist-upgrades or theyre mostly broken.

My english is not perfect but im considering about joining the gentoo project somehow. I have some experience with ebuilds and such things and could spend at least 20 hours per week.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

casualx,

Go to #gentoo-proxy-maint at irc.freenode.net and read about Proxy Maintainers
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HungGarTiger
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It'd be great to turn these "Gentoo is dying" threads into "How you can help Gentoo" threads.

That way the people starting them and complaining can put up or shut up. Those of us that are new and/or looking for a way to help out have an easy trail to follow - we all do have different skills and someones maintaining packages (i.e. programming) isn't for everyone.

@desultory - you've shared some great information in this thread, please if you have anymore to share you have at least 1 avid listener.

On this note, I've noticed an error in the Gentoo Wiki today - how would I go about correcting it?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HungGarTiger wrote:
It'd be great to turn these "Gentoo is dying" threads into "How you can help Gentoo" threads.

That way the people starting them and complaining can put up or shut up. Those of us that are new and/or looking for a way to help out have an easy trail to follow - we all do have different skills and someones maintaining packages (i.e. programming) isn't for everyone.
I have been using Gentoo for over a decade now, and my experience has shown me that the main barrier to contributing is bureaucracy. Many users feel like their contributions are not wanted, usually because it is hard to get the attention of the people who must approve their changes. Other users simply do not want to spend time navigating the project structure even if it is responsive. This is kind of sad, because it is usually these developers - the ones busy with other things, who just want to use Gentoo, and not maintain it - that have the domain specific knowledge that is necessary to fix or forward the bug reports that Gentoo users generate.

There have been a few cases where developers have maintained their charges in a way that has upset many of their users and made knowledgeable non-developer contributors switch distributions or retract their help. One instance I can remember reading about on the user mailing list is the Gentoo games project.

HungGarTiger wrote:
On this note, I've noticed an error in the Gentoo Wiki today - how would I go about correcting it?
You need to contact the Gentoo subproject which maintains the handbook. During my time using Gentoo I have seen many proposed changes to the handbook, most of them insightful and useful. To my knowledge none of them ever made it into the handbook. The only changes that have made it in seem to be those proposed by the clique of developers that maintains the handbook and individuals that have been in close contact with them for some time.
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HungGarTiger
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R0b0t1 wrote:
HungGarTiger wrote:
It'd be great to turn these "Gentoo is dying" threads into "How you can help Gentoo" threads.

That way the people starting them and complaining can put up or shut up. Those of us that are new and/or looking for a way to help out have an easy trail to follow - we all do have different skills and someones maintaining packages (i.e. programming) isn't for everyone.
I have been using Gentoo for over a decade now, and my experience has shown me that the main barrier to contributing is bureaucracy. Many users feel like their contributions are not wanted, usually because it is hard to get the attention of the people who must approve their changes. Other users simply do not want to spend time navigating the project structure even if it is responsive. This is kind of sad, because it is usually these developers - the ones busy with other things, who just want to use Gentoo, and not maintain it - that have the domain specific knowledge that is necessary to fix or forward the bug reports that Gentoo users generate.

There have been a few cases where developers have maintained their charges in a way that has upset many of their users and made knowledgeable non-developer contributors switch distributions or retract their help. One instance I can remember reading about on the user mailing list is the Gentoo games project.

HungGarTiger wrote:
On this note, I've noticed an error in the Gentoo Wiki today - how would I go about correcting it?
You need to contact the Gentoo subproject which maintains the handbook. During my time using Gentoo I have seen many proposed changes to the handbook, most of them insightful and useful. To my knowledge none of them ever made it into the handbook. The only changes that have made it in seem to be those proposed by the clique of developers that maintains the handbook and individuals that have been in close contact with them for some time.


I was going to say that you gave a very cynical response but, I just went over to the wiki IRC channel to report the error to them. Their response was "do it yourself", which I have done now but, I was a little surprised of their attitude seeing as they are literally the Gentoo Wiki team... and maybe this hints at a bigger issue Gentoo is having?
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R0b0t1
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HungGarTiger wrote:
I was going to say that you gave a very cynical response but, I just went over to the wiki IRC channel to report the error to them. Their response was "do it yourself", which I have done now but, I was a little surprised of their attitude seeing as they are literally the Gentoo Wiki team... and maybe this hints at a bigger issue Gentoo is having?
Ah, my apologies, I thought you were talking about the handbook. I suppose I was caught up in what I wanted to talk about. The Wiki at large is editable by anyone. I still agree that they could have been more helpful.

My viewpoint might be cynical, but I think it makes sense when you consider human nature. The developers users do not like do not seem to be actively malicious. However, they tend to hold the authority that is necessary to make changes, and lack the time to proofread proposed changes, code or otherwise. At the same time they seem to be reluctant to delegate authority to anyone else and give up their power.

New or younger developers who hear someone say what Rich brought up earlier in the thread seem to take it to the extreme of ignoring all issues they do not care about or that do not immediately impact them. If you are participating in a project at the level of "developer" or even "package contributor" you have some accountability w.r.t. your code or packages and how useful they are to other people. If that is unwanted, the individual should step down from their position and curate whatever code or ebuilds they have created privately.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HungGarTiger, I think that making the correction yourself is a wise advice. Why delegate when we can do it right (and easily) ourselves?

I keep in mind the essential.
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HungGarTiger
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

helecho wrote:
HungGarTiger, I think that making the correction yourself is a wise advice. Why delegate when we can do it right (and easily) ourselves?

I keep in mind the essential.


I don't think you're wrong. I did learn that I could do it myself, so I will in future now without any worries. I do think that if you're a different personality type though it may have come across as "standoff-ish" especially considering previous replies in this thread about developers/staff attitudes being one of the biggest hurdles to Gentoo moving forward. Maybe in that respect there is some miscommunication?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HungGarTiger wrote:
helecho wrote:
HungGarTiger, I think that making the correction yourself is a wise advice. Why delegate when we can do it right (and easily) ourselves?

I keep in mind the essential.


I don't think you're wrong. I did learn that I could do it myself, so I will in future now without any worries. I do think that if you're a different personality type though it may have come across as "standoff-ish" especially considering previous replies in this thread about developers/staff attitudes being one of the biggest hurdles to Gentoo moving forward. Maybe in that respect there is some miscommunication?


Most of the Wiki can be edited after you create an account.
I think that project pages and the handbook are the exceptions, in which case you file a bug or start a discussion on the discussion page.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HungGarTiger wrote:
It'd be great to turn these "Gentoo is dying" threads into "How you can help Gentoo" threads.
Very much agreed.
HungGarTiger wrote:
@desultory - you've shared some great information in this thread, please if you have anymore to share you have at least 1 avid listener.
While the canonical place for sort of help wanted listings is the "Staffing Needs" page on the wiki, that is not what I would normally suggest as a starting point; short of someone literally being assigned to "help Gentoo", either as a student or as part of a job. Though once some experience has ben had, checking there for potential projects would seems a reasonable next step to me.

My general advice to anyone wanting to contribute to any project, Gentoo or otherwise, is to start by considering three things: what skills you have, what skills you want to develop, and what you want to see improved. Essentially, what itches can you scratch right now, what itches do you want to scratch eventually, and what itches do you want scratched regardless of whether you are doing it. The first gives you a starting point, or at least helps define what your starting point would be; the second does much the same for goals; and the third informs your decisions about where your effort, for instance if you were to highly value a package but not have the skills to maintain it yourself you could potentially help with handling documentation, support, or translations for it to help reduce the load on the maintainers.

It helps to go into projects with the understanding that what you want when you start could turn out to be a poor fit in reality. Whether the initial desire is a package to be made available, which is then abandoned , or worse, by its maintainers; or a skill set that you had wanted to develop that turns out to not be something that is particularly compatible with you for whatever reason. Flexibility is important in the long term.

Naturally, this all depends on the time that you have available to invest in the project, both incrementally and overall; if you have a few hours a week to work on something, you might not make much headway any given week, but over the course of weeks or months you can make substantial progress.

R0b0t1 wrote:
I have been using Gentoo for over a decade now, and my experience has shown me that the main barrier to contributing is bureaucracy. Many users feel like their contributions are not wanted, usually because it is hard to get the attention of the people who must approve their changes. Other users simply do not want to spend time navigating the project structure even if it is responsive. This is kind of sad, because it is usually these developers - the ones busy with other things, who just want to use Gentoo, and not maintain it - that have the domain specific knowledge that is necessary to fix or forward the bug reports that Gentoo users generate.
Having been considering making such an offer for a while now, how about this: if you, in the general sense of the term, have some specific contribution that you want to make to Gentoo but cannot find how to go ahead with making it, contact me via my gentoo.org e-mail address and I will point you in the right direction? It might not be the fastest response in the history of e-mail, but I will at least give it a shot, consider the offer open on an experimental basis.
R0b0t1 wrote:
There have been a few cases where developers have maintained their charges in a way that has upset many of their users and made knowledgeable non-developer contributors switch distributions or retract their help. One instance I can remember reading about on the user mailing list is the Gentoo games project.
So, just to be clear, the one case that comes to mind of a team that was unresponsive to users is that of a team that was disbanded due to perceived lack of responsiveness? Given that the Council was at turns deferring and deliberately giving the team time to react or otherwise respond, timeliness seems the biggest addressable issue there.
R0b0t1 wrote:
During my time using Gentoo I have seen many proposed changes to the handbook, most of them insightful and useful. To my knowledge none of them ever made it into the handbook.
Just to provide a bit of context here, proposals by whom, made where?
R0b0t1 wrote:
The only changes that have made it in seem to be those proposed by the clique of developers that maintains the handbook and individuals that have been in close contact with them for some time.
Changes proposed by those maintaining the handbook and those in close contact with them would generally seem most likely to be implemented; as to whether those are the only changes implemented, while I lack specific data on that point I do doubt it.

This next might come off as defensive, though I really am just trying to figure out what perceived problems are present and what, if anything, can be done to reasonably rectify them.
HungGarTiger wrote:
I was going to say that you gave a very cynical response but, I just went over to the wiki IRC channel to report the error to them. Their response was "do it yourself", which I have done now but, I was a little surprised of their attitude seeing as they are literally the Gentoo Wiki team... and maybe this hints at a bigger issue Gentoo is having?
It might not be necessarily clear from the channel topic (the term laconic comes to mind), but the project page is reasonably clear in that the wiki is expressly meant to be edited by users at large, with the wiki project being present primarily as a sort of oversight team there to keep the site in good working order (given the infrastructure available to them), fix stuff (such as templates and page layout) when it breaks, put down edit wars, clean up spam, and so on.

HungGarTiger wrote:
helecho wrote:
HungGarTiger, I think that making the correction yourself is a wise advice. Why delegate when we can do it right (and easily) ourselves?

I keep in mind the essential.


I don't think you're wrong. I did learn that I could do it myself, so I will in future now without any worries. I do think that if you're a different personality type though it may have come across as "standoff-ish" especially considering previous replies in this thread about developers/staff attitudes being one of the biggest hurdles to Gentoo moving forward. Maybe in that respect there is some miscommunication?
I happen to have scrollback of your interaction with kensington, it appears to be a complete log (8 lines total, 7 over the course of 3 minutes with the last coming over half an hour later), and from what I read I would be quite concerned if that was an off-putting interaction as kensington was prompt, polite, direct, and factual. Personally, I cannot fault his handling of the interaction and strongly doubt that I would handle a similar question any better. Which leaves me wondering: what changes/improvements would you suggest?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:15 am    Post subject: Request Daniel Robbins Returns Reply with quote

Request Daniel Robbins Returns

How about facilitating the return of Daniel Robbins as BDFL? That should spur some life into Gentoo, he did want Gentoo in the first place and he placed up the history to the why as well.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been some time away from the OpenSource World but the current state of gentoo make me feel worried in many ways - even gcc is so much outdated, compared to other distros like arch - still love gentoo but when I have a look at those important outdated packages I really feel sad. - I hope we will never have to look back and remember those days when we compiled kernel and userland and felt like Alice in Wonderland. Pls dont give up folks - Distrowatch tells, Linux brings back fun in Computing and when I started with Gentoo in 2012, I suffered a bad time and it brought fun in my life back again.

What still should be considered is to offer binary packages in my opinion or some new stages, like having a pre built world for system profiles and such things aka a stage 4 or stage 5
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

casualx,

Distrowatch tells nothing useful about Gentoo.

Stage 4s are being built. gcc-7.2.0 mostly works. I'm using it on amd64, arm64 and x86.
Maybe you are worrying about stable?
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