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John-Boy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:32 am    Post subject: EU referendum Reply with quote

OK, three weeks to go.

In, out or shaking it about - if you're not English, imagine that you are - which way would you vote on the above and why ?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out.

I'm sure England can survive without being an inherent part of Europe.
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Stephen_
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=343mq0FxuOE
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erm67
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/23/eu-referendum-poll-tracker-and-odds

I don't think pro-EU UKians will give up even if 50.01% will vote to leave, the struggle will continue just like after the last referendum in 1973.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you believe this country?!?! I get a vote! I am neither british, nor european. Suckers!

I dunno. i sympathize with both camps.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Can you believe this country?!?! I get a vote! I am neither british, nor european. Suckers!

I dunno. i sympathize with both camps.



JB twist's Juniper's arm behind his back - which way ?
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juniper
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one problem is that I have skin in the game as I am on a european visa. I don't know know how difficult it would be to change it to another visa (most people I work with have a skilled workers visa). I am, in fact, now eligible for UK citizenship.

The problem is applying. there are tests to pass, which are all easy, but just take time. and the application itself. Specifically, they ask for all absences from the UK in the last 5 years. I leave the country about 5 or so times a year, so fuck me if I can remember it all. And the documentation. And the fucking money. Every time I look it goes up about 10%.

The trouble is until now I didn't have any reason to become British. I can vote and legally live and work here. It doesn't give me any extra rights. Until now.

The other problem is that I disagree with 99% of the leave campaign. From what I can tell, leave is mainly about free movement and I don't mind free movement. To me, the reason to leave is all about the democratic deficit (which is way in the red in my opinion).

I think I may decide on polling day and vote for the losing side (given by polls) just to give it that little boost.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.


Last edited by juniper on Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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notageek
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should also kick out your monarchy and make Jeremy Clarkson (PBUH) president of Federal Democratic States of England Wales Scotland and Ireland.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would vote out.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
To me, the reason to leave is all about the democratic deficit (which is way in the red in my opinion).

Ironically, this is also the result of GB's blockades. More democratic legitimacy via the European Parliament would only be reached by more supranationalisation. Less of that only results in more decisions being done behind closed doors in the Commission and even less reform when every one of the 28 heads of states keeps their veto power.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Ironically, this is also the result of GB's blockades. More democratic legitimacy via the European Parliament would only be reached by more supranationalisation. Less of that only results in more decisions being done behind closed doors in the Commission and even less reform when every one of the 28 heads of states keeps their veto power.

Supranationalism isn't required to give the EU more democratic legitimacy, you merely have to reform the EC to change it from a bureaucratic dictatorship to a democratic executive, as well as giving the EP more power, such as the ability to introduce legislation. And that has to happen *before* citizens will be comfortable with transferring power and sovereignty, because the EU isn't going to reform itself when it has all the power.
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you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
The other problem is that I disagree with 99% of the leave campaign. From what I can tell, leave is mainly about free movement .


A biggie is also responsibility for ourselves, it would be our own government to blame (or rarely praise) - if you want to protest, it's easier on a national stage, rather than against a monolithic EU block.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
The other problem is that I disagree with 99% of the leave campaign. From what I can tell, leave is mainly about free movement .


A biggie is also responsibility for ourselves, it would be our own government to blame (or rarely praise) - if you want to protest, it's easier on a national stage, rather than against a monolithic EU block.


fully agree.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
one problem is that I have skin in the game as I am on a european visa. I don't know know how difficult it would be to change it to another visa (most people I work with have a skilled workers visa). I am, in fact, now eligible for UK citizenship.

The problem is applying. there are tests to pass, which are all easy, but just take time. and the application itself. Specifically, they ask for all absences from the UK in the last 5 years. I leave the country about 5 or so times a year, so fuck me if I can remember it all. And the documentation. And the fucking money. Every time I look it goes up about 10%.

The trouble is until now I didn't have any reason to become British. I can vote and legally live and work here. It doesn't give me any extra rights. Until now.

The other problem is that I disagree with 99% of the leave campaign. From what I can tell, leave is mainly about free movement and I don't mind free movement. To me, the reason to leave is all about the democratic deficit (which is way in the red in my opinion).

I think I may decide on polling day and vote for the losing side (given by polls) just to give it that little boost.
Thing is both the leave and the remain have been spinning the info "ZOMG if we leave there will be WHAARRRR" "ZOMG if we remain we will be overrun" #

the volume of spin is disgusting from both and I just cannot listen to it. Worst bit is visiting my outlaws... the dinner table is split between REMAIN and LEAVE but both sides are complaining they are not given enough information... guess what the information is out there, you need to look... They had no idea about how the EU is governed & the fact there is no way a british individual can vote in or vote out the commisions president, let alone the cabinet. Likewise they had no idea that pigFucker in whitehall by signing in the EU arrest warrants essentially set the groundwork for latin law to override common law... MagnaCarter fscking Brussels... Trial by Jury is a British right.

My biggest grievance with the politicians is the amount of money the EU costs.. the LEAVE camp spin the highest number "390m per week" the REMAIN spin the lowest "190m per week" BOTH are wrong... its closer to 260m but even if we left we would still have to pay something like that to make use of the EEC
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cokey
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In. You have to be pretty dumb to vote out. It would mean financial oblivion.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mc'abit wrote:
It would mean financial oblivion.

Why would it? Free of Brussels overreach could mean selective deregulation where it's been tying the hands of British business, and increasingly the target of that overreach has been your financial sector.
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juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
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erm67
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Mc'abit wrote:
It would mean financial oblivion.

Why would it? Free of Brussels overreach could mean selective deregulation where it's been tying the hands of British business, and increasingly the target of that overreach has been your financial sector.

It's easy to be gay with someone else's asshole...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
Mc'abit wrote:
It would mean financial oblivion.

Why would it? Free of Brussels overreach could mean selective deregulation where it's been tying the hands of British business, and increasingly the target of that overreach has been your financial sector.

It's easy to be gay with someone else's asshole...
explains Greece's prolapse and their defecation over the €
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el muchacho
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out.


Mc'abit wrote:
In. You have to be pretty dumb to vote out. It would mean financial oblivion.



Hmm... i've heard that dozens of time already. That's what they said to the Swedish when they voted not to join the eurozone:"you'll become a 3rd wolrd country and be the bad apple in Europe"

That's what they said to the UK when it also stayed out of the eurozone.

That's what they said to Iceland.

They also said to Greece, Portugual, France, Italy... that their economies would thrive, unemployment would go down, etc, by joining the EU. :lol:


erm67 wrote:

It's easy to be gay with someone else's asshole...


:lol:
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erm67
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

el muchacho wrote:
Out.

They also said to Greece, Portugual, France, Italy... that their economies would thrive, unemployment would go down, etc, by joining the EU. :lol:




Well France had a long streak without defaulting with the euro, almost unprecedented .....
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el muchacho
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
el muchacho wrote:
Out.

They also said to Greece, Portugual, France, Italy... that their economies would thrive, unemployment would go down, etc, by joining the EU. :lol:




Well France had a long streak without defaulting with the euro, almost unprecedented .....


what are you talking about ? Last French default was 1812.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Mc'abit wrote:
It would mean financial oblivion.
Why would it? Free of Brussels overreach could mean selective deregulation where it's been tying the hands of British business, and increasingly the target of that overreach has been your financial sector.
el muchacho wrote:
Hmm... i've heard that dozens of time already. That's what they said to the Swedish when they voted not to join the eurozone:"you'll become a 3rd wolrd country and be the bad apple in Europe"
More money goes through London each day than anywhere else on the planet. London is the money capital of the world and one of the recent bonuses of its position is that it is "close" to the US and in the EU.

Everything in the financial world is built on confidence and losing instant access to European markets would mean less investment. Less investment would mean less money in the system. Less money in the system would mean slower growth and lower interest rates and recession.

Put it this way, if you want your company to have access to all the European markets then the UK is ideally placed at the moment because of language and the underlying structure in place for big to medium sized businesses. Business is Anglophone and a place in Britain's marketplace opens up 300 million more people. As soon as we leave the EU then we are an island on it's own and if you want access to the EU then it's la lingua franca or Deutschland Deutschland uber alles.

Britain will be very isolated and would not look like a good investment because to an outsider in business we would be seen to be going backwards. I'm not saying planes will fall out the sky and bridges will blow up, what will happen is confidence will lower and gradually things will get worse and worse. It's all very logical...

...Or maybe our manufacturing sector can keep us afloat? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mc'abit wrote:


Everything in the financial world is built on confidence and losing instant access to European markets would mean less investment. Less investment would mean less money in the system. Less money in the system would mean slower growth and lower interest rates and recession.


Yes i know, you said that in the 90s when it was decided that the UK would not be in the eurozone, right ? It was predicted that the UK would enter ice-age again and disappear. :(

Oh, by the way, the second and third biggest financial centers in Europe after London are... Zurich and Geneva. Not in the EU, nor in the Eurozone...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out.

- You must expect then to be the target of massiv(!) punitive measures by the EU.
The EU must and will then try anything(!) to stop the initiated chain reaction.

- You need as soon as possible, a new government!
The current government can not be trusted, they are NOT on your side.
They will do everything possible to thwart the Bexit process and they will reach agreements that will be very harmful for the future of your country.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out, without a doubt. Why add an extra layer of government upon yourselves? Prune it all, and focus on helping the Britons, not the Jihad from the Middle East.
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