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mv
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ct85711 wrote:
Take like the new plasma/kde... according the the forums, the current version in the tree has significant issues

I don't use KDE anymore, but when I was last using it, the reason for this was clearly upstream: You cannot expect a properly working distribution package if the upstream releases all don't... From what I heard, the upstream situation has even turned worse since then.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Yes, it is a problem that vapier e.g. used to push completely unaudited eclass changes (or pushed them despite protests). But at least they used to do something which is - whether you like it or not - very important for a distribution to stay alive.

Would you say the glibc sysmacros.h fiasco back in April that bricked a bunch of people's systems was also important to have? Plain laziness is one thing, taking random experimental patches from glibc's mailing list and pushing them on ~arch users with no warning to "see what breaks" is something else.

I'm glad he's gone.
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mv
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P., with "release fast, release often", I was more thinking about the testing version of openrc: Without releasing it, you just don't find the bugs. I have the same experience with eix. There's just too many setting which need to be tested. But of course, there are limits:
Ant P. wrote:
taking random experimental patches from glibc's mailing list and pushing them on ~arch users with no warning to "see what breaks" is something else.

The intentional crippling of dash is another one of this kind which even hits stable users: I had made myself a fool in shell forums, because I had expected gentoo's dash to work like any other dash and be standard compliant.
Quote:
I'm glad he's gone.

I don't know whether he's really gone; devaway says he is in Asia until August, but August has passed.
But you can see the effect: None of the base packages is updated even after months. Just everything has two sides.
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trippels
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me the solution is to build the complete toolchain (glibc, binutils, gcc) by hand.
Of course then you are told that this isn't "supported" in any way, but I don't care.

For gcc simply checkout the latest gcc-6 git branch and run the following in a build directory:
Code:

(this assumes that ld is gold:)

../gcc/configure --prefix=/usr --bindir=/usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/gcc-bin/6.2.1 --includedir=/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/6.2.1/include --datadir=/usr/share/gcc-data/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/6.2.1 --mandir=/usr/share/gcc-data/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/6.2.1/man --infodir=/usr/share/gcc-data/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/6.2.1/info --with-gxx-include-dir=/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/6.2.1/include/g++-v6 --host=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --build=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --disable-altivec --disable-fixed-point --without-ppl --without-cloog --enable-lto --enable-nls --without-included-gettext --with-system-zlib --disable-werror --enable-initfini-array --with-gold --enable-secureplt --disable-multilib --disable-libvtv --disable-libitm --disable-libcilkrts --disable-libssp --disable-libgomp --enable-cld --with-python-dir=/share/gcc-data/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/6.2.1/python --enable-checking=release --disable-libgcj --enable-languages=c,c++,fortran,go --enable-shared --enable-threads=posix --enable-__cxa_atexit --enable-clocale=gnu --with-boot-ldflags=-Wl,-O1,--hash-style=gnu,--as-needed,--gc-sections,--icf=safe --enable-version-specific-runtime-libs --disable-libstdcxx-pch --enable-libstdcxx-time=yes

and then something like:

make -j8 BOOT_CFLAGS="-march=native -O3 -pipe" STAGE1_CFLAGS="-march=native -O3 -pipe" CFLAGS_FOR_TARGET="-march=native -O3 -pipe" CXXFLAGS_FOR_TARGET="-march=native -O3 -pipe" profiledbootstrap

and then

sudo make install

Then add x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-6.2.1 file to env.d:

x4 ~ # cat /etc/env.d/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-6.2.1
LDPATH="/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/6.2.1"
MANPATH="/usr/share/gcc-data/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/6.2.1/man"
INFOPATH="/usr/share/gcc-data/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/6.2.1/info"
STDCXX_INCDIR="g++-v6"
GCC_PATH="/usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/gcc-bin/6.2.1"

and select the new version with gcc-config.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's rather trivial to rename an existing GCC ebuild though and disable a few patches.
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mv
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trippels wrote:
For me the solution is to build the complete toolchain (glibc, binutils, gcc) by hand.

asturm wrote:
It's rather trivial to rename an existing GCC ebuild though and disable a few patches.

Both is possible but not a satisfactory solution, especially not for gentoo as a distribution as a whole: The early adapters/tester of new toolchains should better test that toolchain which is presumably the future toolchain of the distribution. Otherwise the testing may be sufficient for an particular individual's purpose, but it is worthless for the distribution.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one disputes that, but lack of a package is never a reason to go off-portage for me. Plus, the resulting ebuild is most often upstreamable.

EDIT: So, looks like GCC-6.2 is now in tree.
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mv
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
EDIT: So, looks like GCC-6.2 is now in tree.

Great 8)
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rich0
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ct85711 wrote:
https://bugs.gentoo.org/reports.cgi?product_id=&datasets=UNCONFIRMED&datasets=CONFIRMED&datasets=IN_PROGRESS&datasets=RESOLVED&datasets=FIXED
Take like this chart (Chart from Gentoo's buzgilla over time, showing the number of bugs reported, and fixed/closed). As the chart indicates, for a while Gentoo has been doing pretty good on resolving issues, but since roughly about 2015, the number of bugs that has been resolved/fixed has almost flat lined.

https://bugs.gentoo.org/reports.cgi?product_id=&datasets=UNCONFIRMED&datasets=CONFIRMED&datasets=IN_PROGRESS
Even here, (similar graph but only the opened bugs); the number of bugs that are open is also nearly flat lines since about the beginning of 2015.

Note: You can access these reports and similar, but going to Gentoo's Bugzilla, reports, and go from there...



The X axis isn't linear on these charts. I have no idea whether was a change in the rates in 2015, but if there was no change you'd expect the graph to look about the way it does, because the scaling changes.

This is a horribly designed graph... :)
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rich0
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lutel wrote:
there should be possibility to take away maintainer rights from people who no longer care about it, have open positions for such maintainers and keep a track on this process so all packages would have active maintainers.


How would getting rid of maintainers help? There is no limit on the number of maintainers or such a thing as an "open position." Right now we have an infinite number of openings for a gcc maintainer. I don't think we have quite that many applicants, unfortunately.

lutel wrote:
If you think Gentoo is slowly facing it lagging death, maybe some Gentoo Gods should initiate debate and start looking for financing or business owner who would care about its future.


Donations are welcome. Certainly we don't have the funding to start a Canonical...

lutel wrote:
As for now, there should be taken some serious actions with GCC maintainers, as to me it looks we may have someone who is deliberately putting stick in Gentoo wheel, this issue of having masked GCC-6 build has been raised too many times. Someone just doesn't want Gentoo to develop, I can't see any other reasonable motive for that.


Rather than the gcc maintainers being out to block progress, do you think it is possible that they're either busy with other things, or that they just don't think it is ready yet?

They don't need a motive to not work on gcc. It isn't like they're chained to their keyboards, or compensated in any way for their work. They're just volunteers. If you don't like the state of things, feel free to help out, or start an overlay, or offer to sponsor somebody to work on it at whatever rate of pay motivates them sufficiently.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rich0++
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GFCCAE6xF
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rich0 wrote:
lutel wrote:
there should be possibility to take away maintainer rights from people who no longer care about it, have open positions for such maintainers and keep a track on this process so all packages would have active maintainers.

Right now we have an infinite number of openings for a gcc maintainer. I don't think we have quite that many applicants, unfortunately.


It could always be made easier for the community to contribute. Soo many other much more complicated projects than the damn portage tree get by fine using tools like gerrit/phabricator/etc.. to make it easy for people to submit patched and have the tool stick them in after review from other user, (optional) test bot and approval from developer.

Submitting patches to bugzilla or gentoo-portage-dev@lists.gentoo.org is just crappy in the day where helping most projects is a pull request away.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo

It's not the place for mindless ebuild-rename bumps though, you are supposed to take a closer look at the package, follow git workflow rules, and improve the ebuild you are working on.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admittedly I clicked the wrong link thinking too much about portage tree this morning :lol:

Kinda surprised to see they actually have pull requests open and are actually doing it, I swear people were kicking up a fuss about it before and github was just going to be a mere mirror because of evil pull requests. Nevermind then, I'll assume nobody cared enough to do it or didn't knew they could via github.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Things changed after the Portage git migration, of course before it was not really straightforward. I'd even got one commit merged with the old mirror, now it is > 500...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
asturm wrote:
as I'm not terribly obsessed with getting the latest version there

You would perhaps think differently if you would have C or C++ projects - it is almost mandatory to test them with the latest compiler versions to find hidden issues.
Quote:
I've been building with 4.8.5 until recently

I had no issues with gcc-5 since more than a year.

I had strange compile failures which turned out to be due to Qt dependencies not being built with GCC-5. Likely my fault for not reading warnings, but still an issue, because the process was not automatic, so it would hit people who miss the warnings.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Things changed after the Portage git migration, of course before it was not really straightforward. I'd even got one commit merged with the old mirror, now it is > 500...

Could you provide a link to the lazy person I am which shows how to move to the git-based portage tree and add a testing branch I can use to add my own packages and also to file a pull-request?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lutel wrote:
mv wrote:

I need my system for productive work and not for philosophical debates. And IMHO, the lag of gentoo is meanwhile reaching a critical stage: I am afraid the distribution is close to its death.
This gcc-6 issue is now not the latest thing which shows that gentoo has a serious problem: Also glibc and binutils are lagging.
And why is an important package like palemoon still only in some overlay?
Release fast, release often. Sure, in testing bugs can happen - that's what testing is for. Yes, it is a problem that vapier e.g. used to push completely unaudited eclass changes (or pushed them despite protests). But at least they used to do something which is - whether you like it or not - very important for a distribution to stay alive. Actually, it seems vapier also has quit, meanwhile. Everything seens to have stalled. Sure, there's summer holiday in some countries, but the stalling period is already much longer than just holidays: As mentioned, for texlive e.g. already 3/4 year or so....


I fully support this statement, I couldn't phrase it better. It is unbelievable that such distribution can die just because package maintainers can't cope with releases. Main strength of Gentoo is its ability to fine tune performance, security and stay on the edge. Maybe this is a call to rethink Gentoo management

This happened with the git migration, and it took years. Now it’s here. I don’t like git, but it is ages ahead of cvs, exactly for release-early-release-often.

If you find a package in an overlay, put it in a git fork and file a pull-request.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArneBab wrote:
asturm wrote:
Things changed after the Portage git migration, of course before it was not really straightforward. I'd even got one commit merged with the old mirror, now it is > 500...

Could you provide a link to the lazy person I am which shows how to move to the git-based portage tree and add a testing branch I can use to add my own packages and also to file a pull-request?

I googled that for you: https://www.reddit.com/r/Gentoo/comments/3i141w/now_that_portage_is_using_git_how_do_i_git_pull/

Note that personally I haven't switched to a git tree for system, doing development in a separate git clone.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
ArneBab wrote:
asturm wrote:
Things changed after the Portage git migration, of course before it was not really straightforward. I'd even got one commit merged with the old mirror, now it is > 500...

Could you provide a link to the lazy person I am which shows how to move to the git-based portage tree and add a testing branch I can use to add my own packages and also to file a pull-request?

I googled that for you: https://www.reddit.com/r/Gentoo/comments/3i141w/now_that_portage_is_using_git_how_do_i_git_pull/

Note that personally I haven't switched to a git tree for system, doing development in a separate git clone.

Thank you! Though that’s not the kind of documentation I wished for: This should just need a link into the official documentation - that’s why I asked: To avoid stumbling through unofficial documentation and misconfiguring my system due to relying on incomplete understanding from other users.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArneBab wrote:
I don’t like git


Sorry for off-topic but I swear I have seen you on some comments sections about mercurial. Keep fighting the good fight, they shall have to pry hg from my cold dead hand also :)
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mv
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GFCCAE6xF wrote:
ArneBab wrote:
I don’t like git

Sorry for off-topic but I swear I have seen you on some comments sections about mercurial. Keep fighting the good fight, they shall have to pry hg from my cold dead hand also :)

When trying out free VCSs, bzr was the clear winner for me, followed by mercurial and only then git. However, it seems that the war is already decided...
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mv
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArneBab wrote:
This should just need a link into the official documentation

One problem is that a lot of things have to be set up, and nobody has yet written an official tool to do it.
There is now an unofficial tool in the mv overlay (over layman): app-portage/portage-postsyncd-mv
Its README also contains brief instructions how to setup your /etc/conf.d/repos.conf/* files if you want to use the project for syncing with git (though this is not very exhaustive, because this instruction is not the main purpose of the project).
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
ArneBab wrote:
This should just need a link into the official documentation

One problem is that a lot of things have to be set up, and nobody has yet written an official tool to do it.
There is now an unofficial tool in the mv overlay (over layman): app-portage/portage-postsyncd-mv
Its README also contains brief instructions how to setup your /etc/conf.d/repos.conf/* files if you want to use the project for syncing with git (though this is not very exhaustive, because this instruction is not the main purpose of the project).

That’s sad - the Gentoo wiki used to be the poster child of documentation.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
GFCCAE6xF wrote:
ArneBab wrote:
I don’t like git

Sorry for off-topic but I swear I have seen you on some comments sections about mercurial. Keep fighting the good fight, they shall have to pry hg from my cold dead hand also :)

When trying out free VCSs, bzr was the clear winner for me, followed by mercurial and only then git. However, it seems that the war is already decided...

:)

bzr actually got pretty fast in the end, but by then much of its added capabilities was riddled with bugs and complexities. It seemed too fragmented to keep it working, and Canonical dropped it.

I’m even using hg most of the time when I have to interact with github. It’s great over Freenet: pull from github, push to freenet://ArneBab/<reponame> and people can access it anonymously.

To be somewhat on-topic: there’s a Gentoo overlay over Freenet (I just pushed it there, so it’s not well-tested yet). To test it:

Code:
hg clone https://bitbucket.org/ArneBab/mercurial_on_freenet /root/infocalypse
echo '[extensions]
infocalypse=/root/infocalypse/infocalypse' >> /root/.hgrc
pip install pyFreenet
hg fn-setup --truster YourWoTID
layman -o http://127.0.0.1:8888/CHK@HsePTpcxpLyjKmT6Mdalii7274hHCRFAdHDqS-Xj2jM,DQbbgy9aBt5EFGjRWGOD0cc01JwOLd9DYPuSE~C5pYE,AAMC--8/repositories.xml?forcedownload=true -f -a freenet


You can use that as template how to package anonymously, in case there are programs you would not want to connect to your realworld ID. Gentoo is perfect for this, since an overlay only needs a tiny amount of data.
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