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ONEEYEMAN
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Running 2 DE Reply with quote

Hi, ALL,
Is it possible to run 2 desktop environment on one machine?

I am right now have KDE4 installed. I'm logging in and everything works.
What I want to do is to install GNOME (I already have GTK) installed, and choose which DE to run on the login.

If that's possible - what are the exact steps?

Thank you.

P.S.: Also would be interesting to know if I can install Qt5 in the GNOME environment, keeping Qt4 + KDE4 untouched.
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eccerr0r
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure about kde/gnome, but I do have a xfce/gnome system. Kde and Gnome have so many dependencies within themselves so likely tougher (have to merge USE/make profiles?)
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skiwarz
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done kde/xfce before. I don't remember the exact steps, but to start you could try emerging gnome-desktop and start resolving dependencies. I had some issues running gtk alongside qt, but it did work. For switching, I just modified my ~/.xinitrc each time.
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Roman_Gruber
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

usually you can choose which desctop environment to use with any login manager at the login prompt. example lxdm (whcih i use as of now for i3wm)

you may be forced to convert to systemd for gnome or try some hacks to use gnome with openrc ...
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eccerr0r
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tw04l124 wrote:
you may be forced to convert to systemd for gnome or try some hacks to use gnome with openrc ...

Yes this may be the only sticking point for running Gnome3.

My box was already running Gnome3 just fine with systemd, and xfce merged just fine (and all the desktop niceties like automounting, shutdown/reboot/suspend, etc., work just fine in systemd), I don't recall too many difficulties. I'm sure the other way around would be more painful however, especially if you installed xfce with openrc.
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dantrell
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Running 2 DE Reply with quote

ONEEYEMAN wrote:
Hi, ALL,
Is it possible to run 2 desktop environment on one machine?

I am right now have KDE4 installed. I'm logging in and everything works.
What I want to do is to install GNOME (I already have GTK) installed, and choose which DE to run on the login.

If that's possible - what are the exact steps?

Thank you.

P.S.: Also would be interesting to know if I can install Qt5 in the GNOME environment, keeping Qt4 + KDE4 untouched.

Yes, it's possible to have multiple desktop environments installed. Although, which combinations are possible may take some trial and error (GNOME and KDE should be fine).

If you use a GUI-based login, you will typically select which desktop environment to run through a dropdown menu. With GNOME's GDM, it will look similar to this.

Pulling in Qt when you are running GNOME or GTK+ when you are running KDE is even less of an issue.

eccerr0r wrote:
tw04l124 wrote:
you may be forced to convert to systemd for gnome or try some hacks to use gnome with openrc ...

Yes this may be the only sticking point for running Gnome3.

My box was already running Gnome3 just fine with systemd, and xfce merged just fine (and all the desktop niceties like automounting, shutdown/reboot/suspend, etc., work just fine in systemd), I don't recall too many difficulties. I'm sure the other way around would be more painful however, especially if you installed xfce with openrc.

That said, you are not forced to use systemd if you want to use GNOME. The GNOME Without Systemd project has ofically supported this for Gentoo since GNOME 3.14 (and Funtoo since GNOME 3.12).

The project is also listed here in the Documentation, Tips & Tricks subforum.
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eccerr0r
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Running 2 DE Reply with quote

dantrell wrote:

That said, you are not forced to use systemd if you want to use GNOME. The GNOME Without Systemd project has ofically supported this for Gentoo since GNOME 3.14 (and Funtoo since GNOME 3.12).

The project is also listed here in the Documentation, Tips & Tricks subforum.

The point is, you're on your own without systemd. At least until the Gentoo devs incorporate the decoupling completely into portage and not require overlays.
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ONEEYEMAN
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Running 2 DE Reply with quote

dantrell wrote:

ONEEYEMAN wrote:

Hi, ALL,
Is it possible to run 2 desktop environment on one machine?

I am right now have KDE4 installed. I'm logging in and everything works.
What I want to do is to install GNOME (I already have GTK) installed, and choose which DE to run on the login.

If that's possible - what are the exact steps?

Thank you.

P.S.: Also would be interesting to know if I can install Qt5 in the GNOME environment, keeping Qt4 + KDE4 untouched.

Yes, it's possible to have multiple desktop environments installed. Although, which combinations are possible may take some trial and error (GNOME and KDE should be fine).

If you use a GUI-based login, you will typically select which desktop environment to run through a dropdown menu. With GNOME's GDM, it will look similar to this.

OK, so I can just simply install GNOME and that's it, right? Or I should do something else?

dantrell wrote:

Pulling in Qt when you are running GNOME or GTK+ when you are running KDE is even less of an issue.

Yep, I already have GTK+ installed along KDE/Qt. However, I'm currently on Qt/KDE4 and am interested in Qt5. Will I be able to install it in a different slot not to overwrite Qt/KDE4?

dantrell wrote:

eccerr0r wrote:

tw04l124 wrote:

you may be forced to convert to systemd for gnome or try some hacks to use gnome with openrc ...

Yes this may be the only sticking point for running Gnome3.

My box was already running Gnome3 just fine with systemd, and xfce merged just fine (and all the desktop niceties like automounting, shutdown/reboot/suspend, etc., work just fine in systemd), I don't recall too many difficulties. I'm sure the other way around would be more painful however, especially if you installed xfce with openrc.

That said, you are not forced to use systemd if you want to use GNOME. The GNOME Without Systemd project has ofically supported this for Gentoo since GNOME 3.14 (and Funtoo since GNOME 3.12).

The project is also listed here in the Documentation, Tips & Tricks subforum.


So does this mean I will have to do some "hardcore" configuration? ;-)

Thank you.
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eccerr0r
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you can find out for yourself: emerge -p gnome :)

You could try dantrell's overlay and see if emerge -p gnome is any better.

Make sure you have a mask on systemd if you're set upon not using it, else it will make a mess of your system if you just let it in.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not necessary to use gdm. You can customize the xdm login to launch a primary DE on RETURN and different DE's on F2-F3 et cetera.
I have a machine with MATE, fluxbox, and icewm selectable at login. I'm not at that box right now. Will post details later today.

You can also use Slim https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/SLiM
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As promised, here is how to multiple DE's launched from xdm:

    1. Create or edit file /etc/X11/xdm/Xresources.custom
    2. add the following:
    Code:
    xlogin*login.translations: #override \
            Ctrl<Key>R: abort-display()\n\
            <Key>F1: set-session-argument(failsafe) finish-field()\n\
            <Key>F2: set-session-argument(icewm) finish-field()\n\
            <Key>F3: set-session-argument(fluxbox) finish-field()\n\
            <Key>Delete: delete-character()\n\
            <Key>Left: move-backward-character()\n\
            <Key>Right: move-forward-character()\n\
            <Key>Home: move-to-begining()\n\
            <Key>End: move-to-end()\n\
            Ctrl<Key>KP_Enter: set-session-argument(failsafe) finish-field()\n\
            <Key>KP_Enter: set-session-argument() finish-field()\n\
            Ctrl<Key>Return: set-session-argument(failsafe) finish-field()\n\
            <Key>Return: set-session-argument() finish-field()
    note the line continuation backslahes, that is one statement (bash?)
    3. Alter the key settings as desired, add F4,F5 etc as desired.
F2 launches icewm, F3 launches fluxbox, Return launches your default WM, Mate in my case.

This overrides the xdm default in /etc/X11/xdm/Xresources. You can also overide the greeting this way.
Code:
!xlogin*greeting: Welcome to CLIENTHOST
xlogin*greeting: Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here \012 F2 for icewm, F3 fluxbox


I used to use slim, I forget why I left it. I think it didn't support remote graphical logon while xdm does.
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Leio
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skiwarz wrote:
I've done kde/xfce before. I don't remember the exact steps, but to start you could try emerging gnome-desktop and start resolving dependencies. I had some issues running gtk alongside qt, but it did work. For switching, I just modified my ~/.xinitrc each time.

Using ~/.xinitrc for this is a VERY bad idea (at least used to be). It will override certain parts of desktop environment sessions own startup bits, and you are likely ending up with missing dbus user session and other things, breaking lots of things interestingly for desktops like GNOME.
Make sure to use sessions, and NOT have ~/.xinitrc present. If you want to launch X.Org GUI desktop from command line, you can use startx. It uses XSESSION variable to choose which desktop to launch, so you can do e.g "XSESSION=Gnome startx" to start GNOME, etc (basically a filename from /etc/X11/Sessions/) - I believe the X.org gentoo guide talks about it and tells to put the default in some /etc/env.d/ file.
If using a desktop manager (such as kdm, sddm, etc), then just install the multiple desktop environments and they should show up in these choice dropdowns as noted and demonstrated with screenshot above.

dantrell wrote:
That said, you are not forced to use systemd if you want to use GNOME. The GNOME Without Systemd project has ofically supported this for Gentoo since GNOME 3.14 (and Funtoo since GNOME 3.12).

The GNOME team will never support nor merge stuff to make suspend and other things working without logind interface. Logind is required for good reasons and all these Funtoo patches do, is resurrect dead code that uses old consolekit that was removed from upstream.
Logind interface can be implemented without systemd, and there are projects that have done it. For example, elogind, which KDE folks are testing in their overlay. There are other interesting alternatives as well; some relying on cgroups (linux specific), some not. We are happy to integrate a good solution along those lines and cooperate in achieving this for the gnome overlay and main tree.
People maintaining these old hacks in "GNOME Without Systemd project" should put their time towards such a proper solution, not carrying on bitrot CK1 code.

Though some bits against CK2 might be of interest as well instead of logind, but better if logind is then implemented on top of CK2 if applicable.
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dantrell
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leio wrote:
dantrell wrote:
That said, you are not forced to use systemd if you want to use GNOME. The GNOME Without Systemd project has ofically supported this for Gentoo since GNOME 3.14 (and Funtoo since GNOME 3.12).

The GNOME team will never support nor merge stuff to make suspend and other things working without logind interface. Logind is required for good reasons and all these Funtoo patches do, is resurrect dead code that uses old consolekit that was removed from upstream.
Logind interface can be implemented without systemd, and there are projects that have done it. For example, elogind, which KDE folks are testing in their overlay. There are other interesting alternatives as well; some relying on cgroups (linux specific), some not. We are happy to integrate a good solution along those lines and cooperate in achieving this for the gnome overlay and main tree.
People maintaining these old hacks in "GNOME Without Systemd project" should put their time towards such a proper solution, not carrying on bitrot CK1 code.

Though some bits against CK2 might be of interest as well instead of logind, but better if logind is then implemented on top of CK2 if applicable.

I have three questions for you:

  • How long ago did GNOME in Gentoo lose support for basic functionality without systemd?

  • In that time, what alternative was given to those who were not interested in systemd?

  • What can fans of GNOME do today to use GNOME without systemd and with basic functionality?

It should be clear that in the absence of the GNOME Without Systemd project, users of Gentoo Linux and variants would have no choice in how they run GNOME. If you cared to do even a little research, you would find that the GNOME Without Systemd project has a clearly defined rationale, a realistic understanding of long-term support and an acknowledgment of the importance of long-term solutions.

However, those solutions are not ready and it will continue to take some time before they are ready. The GNOME Without Systemd project proves that there was no maintenance burden in maintaining now deprecated codepaths until viable alternatives were found.

Thank you for supporting GNOME with systemd in Gentoo. You keep doing what you are doing so that those who desire that route have that choice. Until a solution is ready, the GNOME Without Systemd project will also continue doing what they are doing so that those who desire this route have this choice.

Good day.
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Leio
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elogind became available in August 2015. There were other solutions based on cgmanager. No-one looked at those, as a set of people only ranted without action, another set were very content with systemd, and another set of people went and resurrected old code to keep things working for them. I can understand if their skill didn't allow to look into getting elogind or something else going to provide logind for GNOME without systemd, but it's sad to have seen all talk and no action all these years, sans this forward porting that doesn't solve any of the bugs that were the reason of ditching CK1.
Lets move forward and get something proper going finally, shall we?
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Leio
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But to answer the questions

dantrell wrote:
How long ago did GNOME in Gentoo lose support for basic functionality without systemd?

Whenever upstream dropped said support. Probably in 2015, maybe we carried such forward porting patches for 1-2 cycles when not everything had dropped it yet.
This implies that suspend is considered basic functionality (I do also consider it basic functionality). Most of the time USE=openrc-force has existed in a use.masked capacity, and most non-power related stuff should work there in Xorg case.

dantrell wrote:
In that time, what alternative was given to those who were not interested in systemd?

They could have used systemd, when they just don't care about the init system, or really shouldn't (I really don't understand why people care when they don't run a server).
Or USE=openrc-force and lose some functionality.
Or using this gnome without systemd project.
Or coming forward with a proper implementation of logind without systemd, or integrating existing emerging solutions in that area to gentoo. These alternatives exist since Q3 2015 and earlier.
I have told contributing users to do the latter many times on IRC, seemingly some were coding capable. Instead they only ranted and nothing came of it.

I am quite sure we have a lot of users using GNOME with systemd just fine and migrated for GNOME. I wager this is about 80-95% of prior users (including those that migrated to systemd on its own merits). And then there's the 1-2% that vocally resist a better init system for no good technical reasons, yet don't do work to support the alternative properly. Counters on the technical goodness of systemd and whatnot should go to /dev/null or an appropriate existing systemd hate thread somewhere else.
I appreciate some folks have provided an unofficial alternative, but I wish they, or many of the other technically capable people that didn't want to convert to systemd would have stepped up and did a proper solution a year ago.

dantrell wrote:
What can fans of GNOME do today to use GNOME without systemd and with basic functionality?

Contribute a proper solution that doesn't resurrect code declared deprecated 4 cycles ago. Or not have suspend support. Or use systemd. Or wait until KDE team does the work, as they have the manpower AND personal interest in openrc support (a strong motivator). Or collaborate with them (e.g kensington on IRC knows what's up). Existing GNOME team members are all VERY happy with systemd functionality, features, speed and logind implementation and have no personal motivation to do the work, but don't stop others from doing it and are happy to work together with them to get it fully integrated for everyone in the main tree.
Logind is required for even logging in for Wayland GNOME as far as I know.

TBH, I have no idea why this thread mentioned gnome without systemd at all, this was about running multiple DE's.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Running 2 DE Reply with quote

ONEEYEMAN wrote:
So does this mean I will have to do some "hardcore" configuration? ;-)


Not really for adding GNOME as a DE. You just might want to convert to using systemd as the first step. KDE works fine with systemd as well, and will require logind for any upcoming Wayland sessions as well (with systemd being the only existing logind provider in Gentoo for the time being).
You might have issues with some USE flag tweaking needs, which are handled by the gnome profiles for you (there might be some per-package USE flag changes there). You can either do these yourself, switch to gnome profile and add what you need to keep for KDE, or do a mix-in profile (have /etc/portage/make.profile as a directory, not symlink, and having a parent file in there that points to both KDE and gnome/systemd profiles; but this is a bit fiddly in Gentoo tooling and might lead to issues if not watching out when moving trees, or not noticing big profile updates, etc - probably better if one of them is to targets/desktop/... not full profile).

The global USE flags that full GNOME for a fuller experience would like are:

USE="colord eds evo gnome gnome-keyring gnome-online-accounts gstreamer introspection libsecret nautilus pulseaudio tracker"

profiles/targets/desktop/gnome/package.use in your tree has some per-package tweaks to avoid blockers, satisfy USE depends automatically, etc.

systemd target adds USE="systemd udev" and a lot of other profile stuff to force things on some stuff to ensure working systemd environment.
KDE also has a systemd subprofile, so can first go to that (if choosing to go systemd or just not caring what init system it is), migrate to systemd with that, and then add gnome flags or do the mixin to targets/gnome.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Running 2 DE Reply with quote

Leio wrote:
You just might want to convert to using systemd as the first step.


Or just forget about GNOME. Consider GNOME 2 fork Mate, https://packages.gentoo.org/packages/mate-base/mate


Last edited by Tony0945 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you may test out gnome first from a livecd. i am not that well exicted ...
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