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orionbelt
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
orionbelt wrote:
Indeed, i know "better than that". My intent was to point out that, at least in my opinion, it's embarrassing to create such a "shiny" promotion for a half-baked product. I was forced to move to Plasma 5 when it was at 5.6, and one of these triumphant videos was already out. My experience was so bad it wasn't even funny. There were major bugs (such as: when opening a new window, the entire screen would go black except for the new window, and i had to move the newly-opened window all over the screen to "uncover" the other windows!).

Incidentally, the state of the Intel drivers has deteriorated over the past 3 years, to the point where it is not even recommended by Intel devs anymore. So yes, regardless of your GPU in use, I don't think that kind of issue was Plasma's fault at all, but your GPU driver's.

For the record, my GPU is a "Legacy" Nvidia GeForce 8600 GT, and i'm using Nvidia's driver. But my point is that a newer Plasma 5.x version no longer exhibited these problems. This means that, whether they were Nvidia's fault or not, these bugs were fixable. However, Plasma 5 became mandatory to users without sufficient testing.

I know that Linux support of GPU drivers is a mess, but all the more so, this should mean that KDE (or anyone else) should not write to some abstract OpenGL API and hope for the best. Testing on many, many GPUs should be seen as a necessity before declaring that a new version is usable for a large fraction of users.

Quote:
orionbelt wrote:
Do you find it is normal and healthy for a technical project, which is what KDE primarily is, to have at least 2-3 people involved in the creation of each of the aforementioned promotional videos, and only 1 person working on kwin?

That's quite simply not true.

If you are referring to 1 person working on kwin, i was just repeating what a KDE dev told me at a FOSS meeting a few weeks ago. I'd be very happy if it is not true, even though their time must be very limited judging from the number of open bugs...

Quote:
orionbelt wrote:
to find that a bug report about this very issue was submitted nearly a year ago and not only has it not been resolved, its status is still... UNCONFIRMED even though it is trivial to reproduce! Enjoy: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361940

Devs of any project will tell you to not put too much weight into whether the state of a bug is confirmed or unconfirmed, it's really mostly a neglected switch.

You're tiptoeing around my main point, which was that a quite serious bug is still around nearly 1 year after having been reported, and 10 months since the last KDE dev comment...
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

orionbelt wrote:
I know that Linux support of GPU drivers is a mess, but all the more so, this should mean that KDE (or anyone else) should not write to some abstract OpenGL API and hope for the best. Testing on many, many GPUs should be seen as a necessity before declaring that a new version is usable for a large fraction of users.

OpenGL is a standard, if things do not work, and they insist on doing their own thing, it is an issue to be solved by the GPU vendor. No, KDE is not a commercial project, no, they don't have infinite resources and hardware to test on. Devs use their own hardware, that's it. Debugging Nvidia proprietary drivers is impossible, pinning down Intel driver bugs to a certain release is almost impossible since they did not do any official release in 3 years and distros basically did random snapshots until abandoning it for modesetting these days. On 8 years old hardware though, my Intel GPU is still not relegated to legacy status and much preferable to any Nvidia offering of that time. A big part of successfully running a Linux distribution as a user is indeed choosing the right hardware and not just hoping for the best. The reality is that indeed Plasma-5 has been usable for a majority of users at least since declared stable by Gentoo. The biggest issue we had until recently, and the reason we kept Plasma-4 for so long, was multiscreen-support.

orionbelt wrote:
Plasma 5 became mandatory to users without sufficient testing.

Plasma-5 is not mandatory for anyone.

orionbelt wrote:
If you are referring to 1 person working on kwin, i was just repeating what a KDE dev told me at a FOSS meeting a few weeks ago. I'd be very happy if it is not true, even though their time must be very limited judging from the number of open bugs...

I am referring to both claims. kwin.git is openly accessible with your browser.
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orionbelt
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
OpenGL is a standard, if things do not work, and they insist on doing their own thing, it is an issue to be solved by the GPU vendor.

Ideally, yes. In practice, it does not work since the user has even less influence on the vendor. Since KDE is made "by and for" the users, one might naively hope that some effort might go in that direction from their side. I am completely out of my waters concerning GPU programing, but perhaps defensive programing (such as avoiding OpenGL directives known to be badly supported) along with extensive testing would go a long way towards minimizing such problems.

asturm wrote:
No, KDE is not a commercial project, no, they don't have infinite resources and hardware to test on. Devs use their own hardware, that's it.

Actually, isn't it the (commercial) Qt library that makes most/all the OpenGL calls?

asturm wrote:
Debugging Nvidia proprietary drivers is impossible, pinning down Intel driver bugs to a certain release is almost impossible since they did not do any official release in 3 years and distros basically did random snapshots until abandoning it for modesetting these days. On 8 years old hardware though, my Intel GPU is still not relegated to legacy status and much preferable to any Nvidia offering of that time. A big part of successfully running a Linux distribution as a user is indeed choosing the right hardware and not just hoping for the best.

Nvidia still issues new driver versions for their legacy GPUs but i think the changes only concern the way they plug to the kernel etc. and not their innards. Either way, i am not sure whether or not the legacy status was to blame for my Plasma 5 problem, but my point is that it went away with a later version of Plasma, so it was a debilitating (for those affected) but "fixable" bug, and it should have been fixed before stopping support for Plasma 4.

asturm wrote:
orionbelt wrote:
Plasma 5 became mandatory to users without sufficient testing.

Plasma-5 is not mandatory for anyone.

It is, for those who wish to keep using KDE.

asturm wrote:
orionbelt wrote:
If you are referring to 1 person working on kwin, i was just repeating what a KDE dev told me at a FOSS meeting a few weeks ago. I'd be very happy if it is not true, even though their time must be very limited judging from the number of open bugs...

I am referring to both claims. kwin.git is openly accessible with your browser.

Well, as i said, i'm glad this is the case. Who knows, perhaps "my" bug (among others) will be treated before another year goes by...
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Quazil
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I run Plasma at work and did at home for a while.

Updating it to new version is a PITA.
It is full of little bugs that the devs don't seem to want to acknowledge; I've been called all sorts of names for reporting them.
One such bug is that it doesn't render backgrounds correctly if you have a titled monitor.
Another bug is that it charfs and ruins your panel layout on occasion, especially after updating.
Maybe there's a "good reason" but in this case I doubt it; someone that didn't grok OpenGL and EGL and GLX designed the Plasma infrastructure for it so when you use EGL it forces you to use GLESv2 (there's no good reason for this; you can use EGL with full OpenGL).

All considered I would not recommend it if you have work to get done.
I am in-progress moving all of stuff to XFCE4 at work and am already running it at home (nvidia Linux drivers either don't support GLESv2 or don't support what Plasma needs from it).
It's worth checking out to see how it's coming along and if they ever get serious about fixing bugs and cleaning up the OpenGL nightmare it might become a premier desktop but I would do a new build for it and keep your existing setup around.


I forgot about ballo and you can't not mention ballo, their indexing service. Ballo is a _gigantic piece of shit_. It is such a magnificent piece of shit you would think Poettering himself designed and coded it.


Last edited by Quazil on Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quazil wrote:
One such bug is that it doesn't render backgrounds correctly if you have a titled monitor.

What is a 'titled' monitor?

Quazil wrote:
Maybe there's a "good reason" but in this case I doubt it; someone that didn't grok OpenGL and EGL and GLX designed the Plasma infrastructure for it so when you use EGL it forces you to use GLESv2

That's completely wrong.

Quazil wrote:
I forgot about ballo and you can't not mention ballo, their indexing service. Ballo is a _gigantic piece of shit_. It is such a magnificent piece of shit you would think Poettering himself designed and coded it.

USE=-semantic-desktop
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Quazil
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Quazil wrote:
One such bug is that it doesn't render backgrounds correctly if you have a titled monitor.

What is a 'titled' monitor?


Rotated 90

asturm wrote:

Quazil wrote:
Maybe there's a "good reason" but in this case I doubt it; someone that didn't grok OpenGL and EGL and GLX designed the Plasma infrastructure for it so when you use EGL it forces you to use GLESv2

That's completely wrong.


Perhaps I'm off in some unimportant detail but their OpenGL/EGL/GLX/GLESv2 infrastructure is a clusterfuck of not working correctly and using EGL does force it to use GLESv2 unless they just fixed it in the last release.


Last edited by Quazil on Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quazil wrote:
Perhaps I'm off in some unimportant detail but their OpenGL/EGL/GLX/GLESv2 infrastructure is a clusterfuck of not working correctly and using EGL does force it to use GLESv2.

Why do you keep repeating nonsense when told otherwise already?
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Quazil
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You haven't explained jack shit and that issue is probably the biggest thing wrong with Plasma.
I haven't seen you post a single accurate thing about Plasma.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quazil wrote:
You haven't explained jack shit and that issue is probably the biggest thing wrong with Plasma.

There's nothing else to explain - your claim is simply wrong. Now we could speculate how you came to the wrong conclusion; My suspicion is lack of understanding how use flags work. In any case, gles2 is actually masked on Plasma profiles so users don't enable it accidentally.
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Quazil
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

allistarM wrote:
KDE5 and plasma is a better experience for me than KDE4.

- there's no way to remote Plasma


The long-term view is probably that this feature is provided by Weston (Wayland) so there's no reason to sink time into it now to make it work with X as a stop-gap.
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Quazil
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
Quazil wrote:
You haven't explained jack shit and that issue is probably the biggest thing wrong with Plasma.

There's nothing else to explain - your claim is simply wrong. Now we could speculate how you came to the wrong conclusion; My suspicion is lack of understanding how use flags work. In any case, gles2 is actually masked on Plasma profiles so users don't enable it accidentally.


I'm talking about Plasma itself not the Gentoo USE flags.
With Gentoo it used to build then fail at runtime and now it refuses to build.
Both scenarios lead to failures so my claim that it doesn't work is 100% correct.
My claim that EGL is entirely compatible with OpenGL is also 100% correct.
My speculation that KDE dev must have had some reason to do it is 100% correct.
My assertion that they made an awful choice is my opinion but the result is a lack of support for EGL & OpenGL (more specifically requiring GLESv2 w/ EGL) fucks over everyone using nVidia video cards is also 100% correct.

All you have offered is the incorrect notion that because the ebuild USE flag conflict has been fixed that magically makes Plasma work properly.
Perhaps it is a language barrier issue.


Last edited by Quazil on Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:13 am; edited 2 times in total
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KWin itself is a Wayland compositor - it does not use Weston at all. Weston is just a reference implementation.

Work towards Wayland network transparency has so far not come to a final conclusion.

Quazil wrote:
It used to build then fail at runtime and now it just fails to build.
Both scenarios lead to failures so my claim that it doesn't work is 100% correct.

What is *it*? Logs or it did not happen.

Every single Plasma profile user is doing what you claim is impossible.
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Quazil
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't tell if you're trolling me or don't understand the words written but I am tired of arguing.
Have a good one.

Since you got me all riled up and I went and looked and the nVidia EGLStream issue remains unresolved.
Perhaps you were alluding to the open-source driver working but I personally don't consider that "supporting nVidia".
You could reasonably claim it's really nVidia's fault but the outcome for the end-user is the same.
nVidia doesn't work with Plasma on Wayland.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quazil wrote:
Since you got me all riled up and I went and looked and the nVidia EGLStream issue remains unresolved.

Sure that is unsolved, until Nvidia comes up with a solution supported by the community at large (GBM), that has been ready all the while they were working on their own incompatible 'support'. KWin and other Wayland devs have made clear they will not support 1 codepath per graphics vendor, and Nvidia users should put the pressure on Nvidia to change their policies. This affects Wayland support exclusively, and since Wayland support is a work in progress even today, only affects a minority of early adopters. That's a completely different topic from before...
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