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gerard27
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your answer.
Only proves kde5 is not ready by a long shot.
You probably couldn't find any up to date docs like me.
Gerard.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure that proves anything, with wacomtablet being an external application not even part of a KDE bundle.

What more documentation than https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/KDE do you need?
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gerard27
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How to modify/write solid for instance.
It's not in your link.
I guess people using laptops will be fine,but I'm on a desktop.
Gerard,
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asturm
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you want to achieve? Not sure I can follow, I use desktops myself. Has there been similar documentation for KDE SC4?
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orionbelt
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my (mostly negative) experience with updating to KDE5 from KDE4. I say "mostly negative" from the perspective of a user who uses KDE almost exclusively as a Window Manager plus a few applications (mainly konsole, kate, okular). I had to give up on the very nice korganizer a few years back after the "semantic desktop" nonsense, and nowadays this probably precludes me from using most other KDE applications.

For the record, i had been postponing the switch to Plasma 5 up until a couple of weeks ago, when a "world" update was asking me to set the qt5 flag for several packages, and even after that there were some nagging problems, so i put on my optimist hat and said what the heck, let's give it a try... Never again! What i find infuriating is that KDE developers stopped support of KDE4 while KDE5 is still at this immature state! Of course putting out new KDE5 versions for those willing to be beta testers is fine --as long as the stable KDE4 product is still supported!

  • My main issue: My workhorse tool, the konsole, crashes. As far as i can tell, it crashes while i type stuff inside the nano editor (called by mutt). But i don't know whether this is something due to nano (or mutt) itself or due to "lots of typing", which typically occurs inside nano much more than at the konsole prompt. This is a show-stopper for me. When konsole crashes, i sometimes lose the text i was in the midst of typing, but also whatever else was running in the various konsole tabs. Worse yet, when i relaunch konsole, most of the time it does not remember its previous state, and i have to relaunch all my tabs and cd into all the working directories! Considering the crash happens every now and then, this is completely unacceptable for normal use!

  • Inconsistency: As i said, when it crashes (but also when i close it) and i reopen it, the konsole "most of the time" won't remember its previous state --but sometimes it will! Similarly, when i exit KDE and restart it, sometimes it won't remember its previous state, but sometimes it will! I noticed that if i open a gtk-based application (deadbeef) that for some reason KDE cannot detect and auto-relaunch when it restarts, then any application that i happen to open *after* i started deadbeef is not remembered by KDE when it restarts. However, i have not done repeated experiments to be entirely sure --sorry guys, i did not sign up as a KDE beta tester, it is the KDE project that rudely forces me to become one by discontinuing KDE4 support, and this is not the best way to incite help!

  • When i click on the Application Launcher or the various other taskbar widgets (clock, kmix, ...), their pop-up window opens but closes right away, so i cannot do anything with them! That would also be a show stopper, except i found a workaround: switch to my second Desktop, and then the pop-up window remains open... Oh, and did i say inconsistency: "Sometimes" the problem gets fixed (during the same KDE session), then it may break down again...

  • I set the task manager to "Maximum rows -> 2" and enabled the option "Always arrange tasks in columns of as many rows". Tough luck: My taskbar still shows a single row. I even opened many windows to see whether this ever changes: It doesn't.

  • I tried to create an icon on the taskbar, so that when i click on it a script gets executed. It used to work on KDE4. No luck so far with Plasma 5. The closest i could find to this functionality is the "Show a Launcher when not running" option when i right-click on a taskbar tab. However, this seems to just recall the name of the application in question, not the parameters that i used when opening it.

  • The taskbar is unstable. Just minutes ago, i clicked on the taskbar Settings, i added a spacer, then removed it. Alas, removing the spacer had the result of removing *all* my widgets except the clock! Keyboard layout switcher, kmix, device notifier, all gone!

  • Debugging some of these issues has become harder since KDE now puts all its config files inside ~/.config rather than inside ~/.kde4 . I don't know if the intention was good (e.g., complying with some "common desktop" requirement) but the consequence is that i can no longer simply rename ~/.kde4 and restart a virgin KDE to see whether it fixes a problem. Worse yet, when i decide to get rid of KDE, i'll have to manually hunt down and delete one by one all the KDE files now peppered all over ~/.config ...

If there are no fixes to these problems, i will probably either have to go back to KDE4 and solve the "nagging problems" that made me update or look into an alternative WM...

This is just a list of my major issues, there's a number of minor ones, too. Just to mention one example, the minimum width of the konsole tabs is set to much wider than in KDE4. As a result, it only takes me opening 8 tabs before there's no more room for new tabs for the given width of my konsole window. New tabs can be added, but can only be accessed via the arrow. In KDE4, this arrow appeared only after many more tabs were opened.

Also, i did not mention any of the issues that i was able to solve, even though they took me hours and hours, including disabling Baloo. Indeed, how much brash does it take to have an option in the System Settings for every curl and festoon of window decoration but not have an option to disable freaking Baloo? For that matter, how hard would it have been to try to import as many KDE4 settings as possible rather than requiring the user to redo them all?

Gentoo is supposed to be bleeding edge, so i cannot expect from Gentoo devs to support KDE4 if it's no longer supported by the upstream. But i wonder how other distros cope with this. Do they have the resources to backport fixes (especially security fixes) to KDE4? Plasma 5 is clearly a half-baked product for which, as a user, i have so far seen absolutely no advantage over KDE4, but i got hours and hours of frustration and wasted time! Coming after the KDE3-to-KDE4 fiasco and a number of recent eye-candy-over-substance cases in the open source universe, it makes one wonder whether we have reached the limits of the "Bazaar" model of open source development. Clearly, we cannot force people to work on stuff they consider boring, such as fixing bugs or implementing useful features that may not look fancy. Most people seem to gravitate toward things they consider exciting (or perhaps help with their CV?) even if most users think otherwise. Short of having sponsors paying people to fix bugs in a systematic way, my only other hope was that these coders may actually use the stuff they write for their day-to-day work, which should guarantee a minimum of stability. What i see with Plasma 5 makes me wonder whether most KDE devs are young people who get switched to Microsoft Windows by their employer as soon as they get a "real" job and need a stable computing platform...

PS: It would be an omission not to thank here the Gentoo devs who took the time to write detailed instructions about how to move to Plasma 5; it no doubt saved me from even more wasted hours of bug tracking!
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

orionbelt wrote:
Indeed, how much brash does it take to have an option in the System Settings for every curl and festoon of window decoration but not have an option to disable freaking Baloo?

This is very puzzling. You are the second person to claim not being able to disable baloo. You don't have Systemsettings -> Search?

orionbelt wrote:
Gentoo is supposed to be bleeding edge, so i cannot expect from Gentoo devs to support KDE4 if it's no longer supported by the upstream. But i wonder how other distros cope with this. Do they have the resources to backport fixes (especially security fixes) to KDE4?

Gentoo is one of the very few remaining distros providing KDE SC 4.
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gerard27
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@genstorm,
Wtf do you mean by saying wacomtablet is not part of the bundle.
What bundle?
Wacomtablet works and the latest version IS for kde5!
The problem is in system settings!
In "help about" you'll see it's date:2010!!
I can not set the curves because of that.
Gerard.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDE has 3 products:
Frameworks
Applications
Plasma

If you take a look at its category, wacomtablet is part of kde-misc/ - that means it is not, and was never, part of any official KDE product. So wacomtablet for Plasma-5 being only available as a beta does not say anything about the state of a KDE product. If it says 2010 in Help/About then for sure it is not the correct version for Plasma-5.
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orionbelt
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
This is very puzzling. You are the second person to claim not being able to disable baloo. You don't have Systemsettings -> Search?

I do. Under Systemsettings -> Search -> File Search there is a button "Enable File Search". It was enabled/checked by default. I unchecked it, but several minutes later baloo kept on working (i saw it with top and iotop, and i noted its CPU and disk activity on gkrellm). At which point i searched on the net and i think (it's been a while ago) i used this page:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2217434

to get some ideas about how to stop it. I think i ended up kill'ing it, and then removing stuff from ~/.local/share/baloo. Thankfully, it has not restarted in subsequent KDE launches.

By the way, i consider the fact that baloo is by default enabled to be inappropriate. Because even if it gets stopped, it does not clean up after itself. As the above link says, people have found themselves with tons of GB of data generated by baloo! Someone mentioned 14 GB! In my case, i stopped it before it finished its job, and had "only" generated around 1 GB of data. Maybe i'm old-fashioned, but i consider this to be downright bad manners and rude.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

orionbelt wrote:
Here is my (mostly negative) experience with updating to KDE5 from KDE4.


Hi Orionbelt,

Did you try to create a new user and check if then everything works fine? You could find my problems on this forum when I could not run KDE 5 with Nvidia Optimus for few months, and the solution (in my case) was to create a new user without old config and cache files from KDE4 (after a migration). No problems and strange behaviours now.


Quote:
[1] Try it on new user account:
There was a clue on Arch forum called "Clean cache (KDE) to resolve upgrade problems".


Quote:
Clean cache to resolve upgrade problems
The problem may be caused by old cache. Sometimes after an upgrade, the old cache might introduce strange, hard to debug behaviour such as unkillable shells, hangs when changing various settings and several other problems such as ark being unable to unrar or unzip or amarok not recognizing any of your music. This solution can also resolve problems with KDE and Qt programmes looking bad following upgrade.
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wrc1944
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the thread with the clean up cache tip, with the simple commands to easily get rid of the old cruft.

Worked wonders for me. After I did this, and refreshing my kde user config files, a full kde5 on ~amd64 systems has no more weird problems, or in my case on several Gentoo installs, any problems at all.

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1043368.html
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plasma-5.6.5 now in tree (~amd64) fixes lots of multiscreen issues/crashes on screen suspend, raises min Qt dependency to 5.6.1 for that reason.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noticed something else.
The GPU temperature runs at about 8 degrees centigrade higher than in kde4.
To be fair I ran the same programs in both.
Even when not doing anything kde5 runs at a higher temp.
I have no idea what program to use to find out what's causing this,
They are on separate partitions and the video card is passive cooled.
Gerard.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard that from a few people now, and I'm not sure what to make of it. For sure Qt-5/Plasma-5 is making more use of your GPU, and it may be that some GPUs are switching to a different mode then. Either way it is probably more noticable on a passively cooled part like yours.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
The GPU temperature runs at about 8 degrees centigrade higher than in kde4.


What if in Compositor Settings for Desktop Effects you take different settings? OpenGL 3.1, OpenGL 2.0, Xrender?

I took an advice from Ubuntu forum, and for gaming I switch into Xrender instead of OpenGL 3.1. In War Thunder I have 4-5 fps more. I tested this solution as my GPU was overheated last time (but anyway, I need clean fans in the laptop).
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Xywa,
I always switch off all effects because I hate them.
Same for baloo and semantic-craptop.
Gerard.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
@Xywa,
I always switch off all effects because I hate them.
Same for baloo and semantic-craptop.
Gerard.


But I was thinking about changing Compositor Settings profile, even if you do not use any effects.
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gerard27
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right Xywa.
I discovered a lot more settings that eat GPU.
Disabled them all.

After that I made a test kde4 versus kde5:
Ksysgard:
memusage 0.58 Gib kde5 0.53 Gib kde4.

Nvidia xserver settings:
GPU temp 51 degrees kde5 45 degrees kde4.

In both cases fresh boot and only ksysgard and Nvidia xserver settings running.
This is not so good for laptop users.
Gerard.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
You're right Xywa.
I discovered a lot more settings that eat GPU.
Disabled them all.

After that I made a test kde4 versus kde5:
Ksysgard:
memusage 0.58 Gib kde5 0.53 Gib kde4.

Nvidia xserver settings:
GPU temp 51 degrees kde5 45 degrees kde4.

In both cases fresh boot and only ksysgard and Nvidia xserver settings running.
This is not so good for laptop users.
Gerard.


I have read about KDE developers meeting in Randa last week. They said they will be huge improvement in Plasma 5.7 for kwin and 3D, will see. Some info about 5.7: https://dot.kde.org/2016/06/17/kde-plasma-57-beta

BTW: What is this Wayland everybody talking about?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For baloo being somethimes somehow independent from SystemSettings:
Code:
 $ balooctl status
Baloo File Indexer is running
Indexer state: Indexing file content
Indexed 174623 / 186675 files
Current size of index is 1.94 GiB

 $ balooctl suspend
File Indexer suspended

 $ balooctl status
Baloo File Indexer is running
Indexer state: Suspended
Indexed 174623 / 186675 files
Current size of index is 1.94 GiB

 $ balooctl disable
Disabling the File Indexer

 $ balooctl status
Baloo is currently disabled. To enable, please run "balooctl enable"
orionbelt wrote:
(...) My main issue: My workhorse tool, the konsole, crashes. (...)
I really think you should try a clean profile.

Konsole is my main workhorse, too. On my work desktop I currently have three konsole windows with a total of 37 tabs open. All of them connecting to servers (hardware and vm), all "typing" work is done using either vim or nano, and konsole never crashed here.

Basically Konsole is the most rock solid tool you get in all of KDE. So if that one crashes, something is seriously wrong!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the GPU temperatures in my earlier posts.
Kde4 doesn't use wayland, kde5 does.
Would that be the reason?
Gerard.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, you're not in a Wayland session. Won't happen before, maybe, 5.8.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know,x11 is still alive and kicking.
But take a look at the kwin ebuild.
Wayland is a dependency!
Code:

larry@localhost ~ $ equery d wayland
 * These packages depend on wayland:
kde-frameworks/kwayland-5.23.0 (>=dev-libs/wayland-1.7.0)
kde-plasma/kscreenlocker-5.6.5 (dev-libs/wayland)
kde-plasma/kwin-5.6.5 (>=dev-libs/wayland-1.2)
media-libs/libsdl2-2.0.4 (wayland ? >=dev-libs/wayland-1.0.6[abi_x86_32(-)?,abi_x86_64(-)?,abi_x86_x32(-)?,abi_mips_n32(-)?,abi_mips_n64(-)?,abi_mips_o32(-)?,abi_ppc_32(-)?,abi_ppc_64(-)?,abi_s390_32(-)?,abi_s390_64(-)?])
media-libs/mesa-11.2.2 (wayland ? >=dev-libs/wayland-1.2.0[abi_x86_32(-)?,abi_x86_64(-)?,abi_x86_x32(-)?,abi_mips_n32(-)?,abi_mips_n64(-)?,abi_mips_o32(-)?,abi_ppc_32(-)?,abi_ppc_64(-)?,abi_s390_32(-)?,abi_s390_64(-)?])
net-misc/freerdp-1.2.1_pre20150326-r1 (wayland ? dev-libs/wayland)
x11-base/xorg-server-1.18.3 (wayland ? >=dev-libs/wayland-1.3.0)
x11-libs/gtk+-3.18.9 (wayland ? >=dev-libs/wayland-1.5.91[abi_x86_32(-)?,abi_x86_64(-)?,abi_x86_x32(-)?,abi_mips_n32(-)?,abi_mips_n64(-)?,abi_mips_o32(-)?,abi_ppc_32(-)?,abi_ppc_64(-)?,abi_s390_32(-)?,abi_s390_64(-)?])
larry@localhost ~ $

Gerard.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but the protocol is used for safe screen locking, nothing to do with compositing.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
For baloo being somethimes somehow independent from SystemSettings:
Code:
 $ balooctl status
Baloo File Indexer is running
Indexer state: Indexing file content
Indexed 174623 / 186675 files
Current size of index is 1.94 GiB

 $ balooctl suspend
File Indexer suspended

 $ balooctl status
Baloo File Indexer is running
Indexer state: Suspended
Indexed 174623 / 186675 files
Current size of index is 1.94 GiB

 $ balooctl disable
Disabling the File Indexer

 $ balooctl status
Baloo is currently disabled. To enable, please run "balooctl enable"

Yamakuzure, thanks for the note. Although i did not mention it in my previous posting, i did try "balooctl disable", and i did get back "Disabling the File Indexer", except it kept on running in the background until i manually killed it. My situation was similar to what is described by some people here and here.

As a side note: I am a console and text person, so i am all for text config files, but KDE pushes a GUI view of its world --fine!-- that makes us expect that everything is configurable via the SystemSettings tool. Correct me if i am wrong, but i think there is not a single major KDE feature that cannot be configured that way. Now, baloo is an invasive subsystem, with a dominant presence. I would certainly call it a major component. I don't know how complex it is for KDE to interface with baloo, but i cannot imagine it can be too hard to run "balooctl disable" when the user unchecks the "Enable File Search" button on SystemSettings, can it? So why is baloo "somethimes somehow independent from SystemSettings"? Shouldn't this very simple problem have been fixed before declaring Plasma 5 "ready to use" by people who use KDE to actually get some work done instead of being bothered by silly but debilitating bugs?

Yamakuzure wrote:
orionbelt wrote:
(...) My main issue: My workhorse tool, the konsole, crashes. (...)
I really think you should try a clean profile.

Konsole is my main workhorse, too. On my work desktop I currently have three konsole windows with a total of 37 tabs open. All of them connecting to servers (hardware and vm), all "typing" work is done using either vim or nano, and konsole never crashed here.

Basically Konsole is the most rock solid tool you get in all of KDE. So if that one crashes, something is seriously wrong!

Xywa wrote:
Hi Orionbelt,

Did you try to create a new user and check if then everything works fine? You could find my problems on this forum when I could not run KDE 5 with Nvidia Optimus for few months, and the solution (in my case) was to create a new user without old config and cache files from KDE4 (after a migration). No problems and strange behaviours now.

Thanks to both for the suggestion to erase the cache and/or to create a new user.

Regarding the cache: I did delete it following the instructions i found on this forum and elsewhere. I.e., i did:
Code:
$> cd /var/tmp/kdecache-$user/
$> find . -type f -exec rm '{}' ';'
$> cd ~$user/.cache
$> find . -type f -exec rm '{}' ';'
$> cd ~$user/.thumbnails
$> find . -type f -exec rm '{}' ';'

and also (see Xywa's previous posting, https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/KDE#Clean_cache_to_resolve_upgrade_problems):
Code:
$ rm ~/.config/Trolltech.conf
$ kbuildsycoca4 --noincremental

I believe it was at that point that my problem with taskbar windows opening and immediately closing went away; however, the cache erasure coincided with a plasma update, so i am not sure which (if any...) made the difference...

I cannot help asking one naive question here: If deleting cache is so hugely important, why, oh why did the brilliant KDE devs not think of doing something as simple as having Plasma 5 detect whether it's getting installed for the first time, and if so ask the user and go ahead to delete the relevant caches? For that matter, why not attempt to translate the KDE4 configuration settings to Plasma 5? At least those settings with one-to-one unambiguous translation! Lemme guess: Because it's boring...

Regarding creating a new user account to try a virgin KDE installation: I did not try it so far, for two reasons. The first is a pragmatic one: I "feel" that the remaining problems that i have after cache erasure are genuine bugs. For instance, i opened this konsole bug, and it seems to be related to Qt and/or xcb...

The second reason is because had KDE not moved (some of!) its config files to ~/.config, it would have been trivial to rename .plasma5 (for example) to something else instead of creating a new user account. The way it is now, i have two problems: Suppose i create a new user account, and all works fine. But how do i make it work on my original account? In the past, i would simply rename a directory. Now, i'd have to manually hunt down files and names! Second, it takes some time for the konsole bug to appear. It may take 15 minutes, but it may take an hour or two. Now, remember, this is my working machine, and it has not been recruited for KDE beta testing! I don't want to sit around for a few hours typing random stuff in nano, unable to use my regular user account to do some work, just to hunt down an obscure KDE bug that shouldn't be there in the first place in a "production" quality release!

One final note: If you think that i am complaining too much, it's because i care about this project, and i don't want to quit right away. My office colleague, who runs Debian, was on Plasma 5 for a while now (with problems but no showstoppers). Last week Debian had him update Plasma 5. After the update, KDE would hang at the Breeze splash screen. He spent a workday trying various obvious things, including cache and even config file deletions. Nothing worked. He is now a Cinnamon user. Isn't it incredible that KDE would just not even boot after a minor version update on the largest Linux distribution?!

In the end, i think this is really sad, shooting oneself in the foot after all the amazing, man-centuries, amount of work done on the project...
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