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Astronaut
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience has been horrible so far, (I've tried Plasma last year) and upgraded last week after reading that the support would be discontinued

I appreciate the effort of the gentoo developers to integrate this and they did quite a good job in my opinion, my problem is with upstream; the releases are frequent and immature or let's say lack serious testing, it's more like an eye-candy knock-off than a product by the usually professional rock-solid KDE "brand".

In fact, I find it comical that many people have to ditch sddm (recommended DM) and rely on LightDM (Gnome) to make KDE work.

Is it worth the hassle? I'd say no, wait until it matures a lot more to reach what your average KDE user expects; a very stable powerful desktop experience.

Go back to KDE4 if you expect quality, else with the amount of bugs and quirks, I'd say that any other DE would be bearable.

Regards,
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair, most of the problems with SDDM are config related and solved fast, except for a certain bug that seems to not bring it up at all for a few people. While it is recommended, it is not a KDE application, so the choice of a different login manager until this is fixed is no biggie at all. lightdm actually can be built with Qt4 or Qt5 support and comes with an optional kde greeter. plasma-meta let's you choose lightdm via USE=-sddm.

Also the rate at which Plasma-5 issues are fixed in this forum is quite high, imo. Again they are upgrade/config issues and then to some extent real bugs that are either known (screen management, a sad story) or out of scope of Plasma (driver woes, damn Optimus but also Intel with their current hit-and-miss 'we don't do releases anymore' approach) or really caused by Qt5/Plasma-5 (not that many, imo).
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
To be fair..

What does "fair" have to do with it? All you're doing is apologising while slipping in that it's a "config" problem usually: iow blame the user.

It's much fairer on the user to be honest, and state upfront that it's not ready yet.

No-one's pooh-poohing anyone else's work; there is no need for hagiography about how wonderfuel KDE-developers are, because most of the people in here are already long-time KDE users.
Quote:
Also the rate at which Plasma-5 issues are fixed in this forum is quite high, imo.

So what if bugs are fixed? That's precisely what must happen, especially during the 2-year beta-test phase KDE requires, after everyone upstream says "it's ready."

IOW you are adding nothing of technical content nor value here; only performing as a cheerleader, a sociopolitical role of propaganda.
Quote:
Again they are upgrade/config issues and then to some extent real bugs that are either known (screen management, a sad story) or out of scope of Plasma (driver woes, damn Optimus but also Intel with their current hit-and-miss 'we don't do releases anymore' approach)

That really is rich: just because you put out fifty different unstable and unfunctional "versions", expecting end-users to find your bugs, does not make you an example of good release-management.

By that token, all those borken releases of openrc, that bumped the version from 0.13 to 0.19 in a matter of weeks, or the myriad releases of a web-browser, all of which have security-holes, are somehow things we should emulate.
Quote:
or really caused by Qt5/Plasma-5 (not that many, imo).

Lul. Yes, that's not down to upstream..
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually helping to solve bugs for months and being in those threads *might* give me the ability to differentiate between the nature of the issues. Think about it. But there you are again at your usual game.
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balo2k
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I upgrade last weekend (when I saw the news anounce), really liked the new theme and animations, but when I tried to actually do things it didn't perform.

My problems:

- KDE Wallet migration didn't work (main reason to downgrade to KDE4, now I'm looking for other password manager), can't import the old wallet: password not recognized, next time I know better and export it to xml before the migration.

- KMail didn't work.

- Some configs you change didn't stay and return to default each time you close the session (ie: konqueror font selection).



I'm back on KD4 now, were all is boring but simply works as expected.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can always access your old wallet because kwalletmanager:4 is still around. If it doesn't work automatically, export from there, import with kwalletmanager:5.

kmail has not changed at all. Could it be that you were hit by the prelinking/glibc bug at the same time?
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balo2k
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact kde was accessing my old wallet, but the passwords it provides to konqueror or firefox were bad, and I was unable to import with kwalletmanager5 because it didn't recognize the main password to open the old wallet.

I think (but I don't know) that the problem arises because the wallet have an associated salt file and the kwallet import function don't take this in count (I have seen problems with salt files on internet searching for a fix to this, but is very poor documented).

Code:

ls -lh .kde4/share/apps/kwallet/
total 128K
-rw------- 1 alvaro alvaro 123K abr 16 08:49 kenan.kwl
-rw-r--r-- 1 alvaro alvaro   56 jul 10  2015 kenan.salt



I do think I was touched with the prelinking/glibc bug, but after recompiling and retiring the prelink kmail started but don't let me create or modify the accounts.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it's not the first time I hear about trouble with a salt file. In that case manual migration seems to be required.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly for people deciding now whether to go to Plasma 5 or to mask it and stay on kde4 I can only say that I've been using Plasma 5 now for over a month (after switching back and forth between it for over a year and a half) and finally at this point I would not even consider going back to kde4. The biggest issue I am facing with Plasma 5 is that in Dolphin the inline star ratings aren't showing up as they should and Baloo messes up some things when searching based on star ratings. Other than that Plasma 5 does everything KDE 4 did and arguably better. And I'm using a dual monitor setup as well.

You can look through my posts. I've switched back and forth from kde4 to plasma5 a lot due to various bugs and being unhappy with features and things like large memory leaks. So I'm not simply cheerleading for Plasma 5. At least in my experience it is nowhere near as bad as some have made it out to be. There has been a lot of progress with it in the last six months or so to where it is very stable.

Now if you are OCD or near OCD about Desktop and even minor changes then yes switching is probably going to be pretty traumatic for you. The same is true if you hit some corner case bug or if there is a special issue with your hardware. From what I see GPU specific ones are the most common ones.

I would at least suggest giving it a shot for a day or two to see how it works on your hardware.
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zoidie
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having started the thread, I just thought I'd report back that I've not had any trouble other than the black screen issue initially. Startup/login time is a bit slow (but my hardware is a bit long in the tooth now!) but otherwise, no performance issues.

Overall, no regrets at having upgraded slightly ahead of the game as it turns out it was marked stable not long after I took the plunge with the overlay!
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

davidm wrote:
Honestly for people deciding now whether to go to Plasma 5 or to mask it and stay on kde4 I can only say that I've been using Plasma 5 now for over a month (after switching back and forth between it for over a year and a half) and finally at this point I would not even consider going back to kde4.
..
You can look through my posts. I've switched back and forth from kde4 to plasma5 a lot due to various bugs and being unhappy with features and things like large memory leaks. So I'm not simply cheerleading for Plasma 5. At least in my experience it is nowhere near as bad as some have made it out to be. There has been a lot of progress with it in the last six months or so to where it is very stable.

I am sure there has; however you will forgive me for thinking that you are an early adopter who quite likes struggling with new software, and watching it develop.
Quote:
Now if you are OCD or near OCD about Desktop and even minor changes then

Now you are just personalising the debate, by casting aspersions on people who don't feel as you do.
"how bad some have made it out to be" also indicates that you think it's just "those people". (roll)

The counter is that you are simply a masochist, and having thrown so much time at the upgrade, you are damned if you're going to admit it was time wasted, so you're doing the cognitive dissonance thing of telling yourself it was worth it (because you did it.)

See: personalising it doesn't help, does it?
Quote:
yes switching is probably going to be pretty traumatic for you. The same is true if you hit some corner case bug or if there is a special issue with your hardware. From what I see GPU specific ones are the most common ones.

Sure, but then "corner-cases" aren't very fun when you're in a corner. And finding out you're in that corner after you've gone through the pain of the upgrade (please don't pretend there is none; we're long-term KDE users and we will simply laugh, at best) is not something we have the time to deal with.
Quote:
I would at least suggest giving it a shot for a day or two to see how it works on your hardware.

Yes, and if we happen to hit that "corner-case" which no-one can be bothered to deal with, because "hey it's only that one user/ten users," and really we don't want to get into that stack of crap (let's hope it'll just start working again) then you and others like you will shrug your shoulders and say "too bad" (I'm all right, jack.)

If you don't understand other people's perspective, that's fine: just don't denigrate us with terms like "OCD or near OCD about desktop" when all we want from the higher-layers is to work reliably, because we do all the sodding work on the lower ones, and we know they're good. If your middleware is borked that's your problem to deal with, not ours.[1]

Turns out being a "web-developer" (ie: knowing a bit of javascript, just enough to nod wisely about node.js) does not translate to fluency in other languages, and it sure as hell does not make anyone "a userland expert."
Nor does boning up on a few of the POSIX APIs, just enough to lock people out, one was busily denigrating just a few short years ago.

Note well: I am fine with people running whatever they want, on their machines.
What I am decidedly not okay with, is other people telling me what we must run on ours (usually with specious nonsense about "being left behind", an appeal to the social, not the technical, irrespective of bleating about "bit-rot" from people who've never even grokked a Standard, let alone brought software into compliance with a newer one.)

Forgive me for venting: this is not aimed at you specifically.


[1] Hint: the worst thing you can do is invert coupling.
Thing is, if you didn't know that already, then you had no place even opening an editor, let alone being given commit access.
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davidm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

Forgive me for venting: this is not aimed at you specifically.


OK, no problem. :)

What I mean by giving it a try for a few days is that you really won't know until you try. Also you can always go right back to kde4 if it doesn't work out for you. I've done it multiple times without having to do a full reinstall. It really wasn't very difficult for me and you are probably a more advanced user overall than I am so you could probably handle it as well.

I am an early adapter but I also switched back to kde4 quite a few times when it didn't work out and I ran into big issues. I'm definitely not telling you what to do beyond making a suggestion. All I can say for sure is that it is now working very well for me-- far better than ever before and I'm not even considering switching back to kde4 this time. I have no idea how it will work with your specific hardware or if there will be some features or corner cases which make it unusable for you.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

Forgive me for venting: this is not aimed at you specifically.

davidm wrote:
OK, no problem. :)

Thanks :-) I shouldn't even have used the word "specifically", at all; venting, huh.
Quote:
What I mean by giving it a try for a few days is that you really won't know until you try. Also you can always go right back to kde4 if it doesn't work out for you. I've done it multiple times without having to do a full reinstall. It really wasn't very difficult for me and you are probably a more advanced user overall than I am so you could probably handle it as well.

I've never been able to go back without using different user accounts for the two a-priori, so I would be interested to hear more from you on this (even if I don't actually bother upgrading for another year or two.)

Whether I can "handle" it, is irrelevant to time-loss, which I simply cannot afford right now.

Respectfully, do you see how your choice of word is a bit masochistic? It implies some sort of macho kudos around being able to "handle" wrangling with a software installation.

At my age, it doesn't even register as something I'd want to "handle"; though I do have memories of feeling caught-up in that sort of thing: funny, how we change.

Forgive me also for implying you were telling others what to do, please. I know that's not a Gentoo-user thing, at all.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidie wrote:
Having started the thread, I just thought I'd report back that I've not had any trouble other than the black screen issue initially. Startup/login time is a bit slow (but my hardware is a bit long in the tooth now!) but otherwise, no performance issues.

Overall, no regrets at having upgraded slightly ahead of the game as it turns out it was marked stable not long after I took the plunge with the overlay!


Good to hear!

I have older hardware as well (core2quad, DDR2 ram) and recently put in a SSD for the system fs. It probably would boot up now in under five seconds total if it weren't for my needing to manually enter the LUKS password and the BIOS post sequence. It's amazing how much that SSD made a difference. It probably loads 3-5 times faster now. So if that annoys you and you aren't ready to shell out for a new system the ssd might be worth a shot. :)
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Combining the old Pre 5.4.x "Breeze Dark" window style with the Arquetype Breeze theme from kde-look.org makes it look really nice to me. The minimalistic look with monochrome icons really adds to it. It gives off a certain vibe that reminds me of the Adobe CS6 bundle or in some sense the dark theme of Microsoft Visual Studio 2013.

I don't really understand some peoples' objections to this. The simplicity sets the focus on the content instead of the design of the UI. The sleek and sharp icons that are beautifully antialiased from the underlying SVG icons on a high resolution screen makes it look professional. There is an old adage; "less is more". Don't know who invented it.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

I've never been able to go back without using different user accounts for the two a-priori, so I would be interested to hear more from you on this (even if I don't actually bother upgrading for another year or two.)



Well my memory isn't the best unfortunately and it all tends to run together (I also switched back and forth on Arch a bit as well) but I didn't need to use separate profiles or accounts. It handled the change over and then the change back to it just fine and in fact as I recall my settings were waiting for me from the last time I used it.. To downgrade I basically just changed my profile, masked the slot 5 packages and updated. Of course there were a lot of blockers but it was just a matter of unmerging them and trying again until it finally stuck! It was probably a bit easier in the past though. You are soon probably going to face instances where packages drop out of portage as Plasma and :5 kde apps are now starting to hit stable.

Quote:

Whether I can "handle" it, is irrelevant to time-loss, which I simply cannot afford right now.

Respectfully, do you see how your choice of word is a bit masochistic? It implies some sort of macho kudos around being able to "handle" wrangling with a software installation.

At my age, it doesn't even register as something I'd want to "handle"; though I do have memories of feeling caught-up in that sort of thing: funny, how we change.

Forgive me also for implying you were telling others what to do, please. I know that's not a Gentoo-user thing, at all.


Yes it definitely takes some time. But that is to some extent the trade off in using Gentoo. I agree maybe it was a bit masochistic but I guess I was just used to that as I've also used the kde and qt overlays and for a while was running all live builds. I switched back and forth from using those overlays a bit too so I guess I'm just used to it. It's good practice anyway but yes it might waste half your day. :lol:
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried 5.6 last week. Gave it a test run and I did not want to add the kde repository to layman, so I used things as is from the tree.

First impression was Plasma 5.6 was much better than 5.5, but still there are things not right for me:

- missing Konqueror (yes I still use the dolphinpart here as a file manager)
- missing Kate/KDevelop/etc
- font issues with Qt 4/KDE 4 issues
- no Cleanlooks theme or similar; the main issue here is that the classic K menu does not use this anyway (it uses the theme, like Air), and I find the performance of the K menu (with translucency and all) to be pretty bad and not as easy to read

I would not care about using KDE 4/Qt 4 apps in this space if the font issue would go away. I found a weird solution in forcing ~/.kde4/share/config/kdeglobals to set '57' (bold) to '50' and set the file mode to 0400. That partially solved the font issue. I have not seen any help here except that the packager should include systemsettings4 and Gentoo does not have that.

Things I want:
- Keramik and Cleanlooks
- font issues resolved
- use a simple menu for the K Menu, not the theme (Air)

I downgraded back to KDE 4, for the second time. I'd really like to see KDE 5 succeed but I need to work.

On top of all that, I do not get why there still exists Akonadi, Baloo, and all that stuff I never use (a source of confusion for countless uesrs; just see the KDE forums). KMail got so bad I switched to Thunderbird.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatsh wrote:
- missing Konqueror (yes I still use the dolphinpart here as a file manager)
- missing Kate/KDevelop/etc

Plasma-5 is just the desktop, the upgrade does not give you any applications to work with, other than the ones that are already present on your system (konqueror and kate back from KDE 4). A subsequent stabilisation of KDE Applications will give you a KF5-based version of kate, but konqueror remains based on kdelibs-4 even in the upcoming release.

As for your font problems it seems to have been a problem with your old configuration. It's the first time I've heard about that. Packaging old systemsettings is not possible afaik since it is clashing with the new one, and plasma-desktop[qt4] takes care of integrating Qt4-based applications with the chosen Plasma-5 theme, nothing should be configured separately.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatsh wrote:
- missing Konqueror (yes I still use the dolphinpart here as a file manager)


How to do this? The elog says:

Quote:
If you want to use konqueror as a filemanager, install the dolphin kpart:
kde-apps/dolphin:4/15.12


But there is no such thing:

Code:
# emerge -1av kde-apps/dolphin:4/15.12

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!

emerge: there are no ebuilds to satisfy "kde-apps/dolphin:4/15.12".


This is a stable amd64 system on plasma profile (no systemd) with selectively accepted ~amd64 packages from #579992. I have konqueror, but the only available filemanager view mode is "tree size" due to some extra package providing that.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apheus wrote:
How to do this? The elog says:

Quote:
If you want to use konqueror as a filemanager, install the dolphin kpart:
kde-apps/dolphin:4/15.12

That seems to be an outdated elog message, something that should be fixed:

Code:
$ equery l -ip kde-apps/dolphin
 * Searching for dolphin in kde-apps ...
[-P-] [  ] kde-apps/dolphin-4.14.3:4/4.14
[-P-] [  ] kde-apps/dolphin-4.14.3-r1:4/4.14
[IP-] [  ] kde-apps/dolphin-15.12.3-r1:5

If you want to use konqueror as a file manager, you can not upgrade to latest dolphin since it is kf5-based. You'll need to stay with 4.14.3-r1.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, thanks. This is a test system and my main filemanager is dolphin anyway. I'm going to keep it as it is.

I would be more interested in konqueror (with webkit) as browser, and in rekonq. Both with qtwebkit:5 instead of the unmaintaned qtwebkit:4.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apheus wrote:
I would be more interested in konqueror (with webkit) as browser, and in rekonq. Both with qtwebkit:5 instead of the unmaintaned qtwebkit:4.

Even qtwebkit:5 is already unmaintained, Qt-5.6 officially does not ship with it, and distributions need to package a snapshot for current applications still relying on it to continue working. Meanwhile, porting to qtwebengine is under way, KDE PIM live is probably first to use it.

Unfortunately, konqueror's kf5-port is baking rather slowly, and rekonq seems to be abandoned altogether. You might want to look into qupzilla instead.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatsh wrote:

- missing Kate/KDevelop/etc


I'm using qt5 Kate right now and at the moment with no overlays on ~amd64. Unless maybe you mean some sort of integration with something else?

Quote:

kde-apps/kate

Available versions:
(4) 4.14.3(4/4.14){tbz2}
(5) (~)15.12.3
{+addons aqua debug +handbook python test PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python2_7 python3_3 python3_4" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_3 python3_4"}
Installed versions: 15.12.3(5)(08:00:06 AM 03/21/2016)(addons handbook -debug -test)
Homepage: https://www.kde.org/applications/utilities/kate http://kate-editor.org
Description: Kate is an advanced text editor


kdevelop is something they have been talking about bringing to qt5 for sometime. I don't really use it but I'm pretty sure it is supposed to be brought over to qt5 pretty soon in a release. I do see that it is available in qt5 from the Gentoo KDE overlay though as a live build if you'd like to try it:

https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/kde.git/tree/dev-util/kdevelop

I have no idea how well it works. Also from what I understand the qt4 kdevelop should still work under Plasma 5 also?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

davidm wrote:
I'm using qt5 Kate right now and at the moment with no overlays on ~amd64.

Last bit is the key, it's not yet available to stable. However, there's this: Bug 579992 - KDE Applications 15.12.3 stabilisation

But as you say, doesn't really matter since kdelibs-4 applications work just fine.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically if I had a lot more free time, I would not mind the issues I have, nor care about stability levels. I would want to report bugs whether they are preference-based or just simply crashes with back-traces. I was a little bit more like this back when KDE 4.2 came about but I was not tolerant enough to use KDE 4.0. I am pretty sure everyone can remember how that went.
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