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berferd
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 117
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 Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:35 pm Post subject: OpenRC has already been forked |
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I realized a fork of OpenRC already exists.
I've got a Funtoo system, but am somewhat disappointed with the distro. I like to run stable and there are approximately 5 of us in the world doing that. It seems most Funtoo users and devs run unstable. I also found it impossible to get an account on their forums or bug tracker. Maybe it's because of my vanity domain email, but that's just a guess. No explanation was ever offered on IRC.
In any case, I wonder if it's possible to set up the Funtoo overlay on a Gentoo stable install, and just pick a couple of packages from it. |
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8936
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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Sure it is. Gentoo has very recently much improved its stabilisation process. I'm wondering what a Funtoo overlay would really provide for you in addition.
A long time ago I installed from a Funtoo stage3 tarball and used it for a very brief period of time, quickly discovered it wasn't a good idea to use with Gentoo overlays that frequently moved packages to tree (with a lag of 1-3 days of the Funtoo tree catching up) and moving the existing installation to Gentoo was as easy as swapping the tree at /usr/portage/ and adding some transitional package.keywords for some time (because I didn't want to downgrade packages). If they really forked OpenRC and possibly changed more stuff then you may have to be more careful these days. |
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simonvanderveldt
Apprentice
Joined: 26 Jan 2016
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | augustin wrote: | | Overall, it's a good idea, however, as you can notice, there is by far not enough community active involvement to make it viable. Until there is a demonstrated desire by the community to take concrete action, I'll simply focus on what I can do on my own... which won't be much more than documenting a few things and drafting a GLEP. |
augustin ... I didn't comment previously because everything I have to say I've already said (in threads going back some years, and in which you were a participant), and I can't be expected to keep repeating myself. I'm not going to say don't bother, but I think you are missing the problem here, and that is the composition of this "community", how decisions are made, and by whom. If you think that can be improved in some way by a GLEP then I think you are mistaken, the problem is, as I said, a socio-political one, and this will not change unless this composition changes, ie, there are checks on developers "do[ing] what they want", and developer culture in general, ie, the use of "your opinions don't matter ... show me the code" (actual quote), and accusations of "moaning" directed at users when criticism is offered, or developers decisions are challenged ... and far too many other community dissipating behaviours to document here.
So, you can think there is as a lack of interest from the community, but for those of us who have been forced over the years to either repeat themselves, or remain silent, then that might be the sign of an effect, rather than a cause.
best ... khay |
I'd like to respond to this with my experiences as a (relative) newcomer to Gentoo. Love the ideas, concepts and the majority of the things that make up Gentoo, so I'd very much like to contribute where I can
But the experience has been pretty crappy. First of all I had to register at another bugtracker, which to add insult to injury sucks massively from a usability perspective, Then when I create a bug the majority of the time I hear nothing and the first time I did get a response it was a totally unacceptable bunch of crap about how I compress my logs and not related to the bug itself at all (yes, this really happened).
None of this makes me feel welcome and gives me a warm feeling about this community and the quality product it would/should/could create.
All of this is not even talking about actually contributing to the Portage tree, for which my perception is that you somehow have to be in some specific group of people and then you get free reign to commit to it, no reviews whatsoever, with the resulting issues that that inevitably brings.
IMHO it would help a lot if the portage tree would be maintained in a more open/democratic way and a more useful bugtracker be used. Concrete suggestion: put the portage tree on GitHub, do PRs for changes and let anyone contribute changes by creating PRs. |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| simonvanderveldt wrote: | | khayyam wrote: | | augustin wrote: | | Overall, it's a good idea, however, as you can notice, there is by far not enough community active involvement to make it viable. Until there is a demonstrated desire by the community to take concrete action, I'll simply focus on what I can do on my own... which won't be much more than documenting a few things and drafting a GLEP. |
augustin ... I didn't comment previously because everything I have to say I've already said (in threads going back some years, and in which you were a participant), and I can't be expected to keep repeating myself. I'm not going to say don't bother, but I think you are missing the problem here, and that is the composition of this "community", how decisions are made, and by whom. If you think that can be improved in some way by a GLEP then I think you are mistaken, the problem is, as I said, a socio-political one, and this will not change unless this composition changes, ie, there are checks on developers "do[ing] what they want", and developer culture in general, ie, the use of "your opinions don't matter ... show me the code" (actual quote), and accusations of "moaning" directed at users when criticism is offered, or developers decisions are challenged ... and far too many other community dissipating behaviours to document here.
So, you can think there is as a lack of interest from the community, but for those of us who have been forced over the years to either repeat themselves, or remain silent, then that might be the sign of an effect, rather than a cause.
best ... khay |
I'd like to respond to this with my experiences as a (relative) newcomer to Gentoo. Love the ideas, concepts and the majority of the things that make up Gentoo, so I'd very much like to contribute where I can
But the experience has been pretty crappy. First of all I had to register at another bugtracker, which to add insult to injury sucks massively from a usability perspective, Then when I create a bug the majority of the time I hear nothing and the first time I did get a response it was a totally unacceptable bunch of crap about how I compress my logs and not related to the bug itself at all (yes, this really happened).
None of this makes me feel welcome and gives me a warm feeling about this community and the quality product it would/should/could create.
All of this is not even talking about actually contributing to the Portage tree, for which my perception is that you somehow have to be in some specific group of people and then you get free reign to commit to it, no reviews whatsoever, with the resulting issues that that inevitably brings.
IMHO it would help a lot if the portage tree would be maintained in a more open/democratic way and a more useful bugtracker be used. Concrete suggestion: put the portage tree on GitHub, do PRs for changes and let anyone contribute changes by creating PRs. |
https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7797610.html#7797610
not really for issuing bugs as the github is just a clone of git.gentoo.org
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8936
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| simonvanderveldt wrote: | | But the experience has been pretty crappy. First of all I had to register at another bugtracker, which to add insult to injury sucks massively from a usability perspective, Then when I create a bug the majority of the time I hear nothing and the first time I did get a response it was a totally unacceptable bunch of crap about how I compress my logs and not related to the bug itself at all (yes, this really happened). |
Since when is it offensive to give advice? Good interaction on bugzilla goes both ways, if you make a mistake someone takes the time to inform you about it, so you are aware for the next time. Like, every time I encounter someone attaching a full ebuild for their one-liner change, I will politely tell them to use unified diffs in the future, so changes can be easily reviewed. Everyone profits.
Yes, bugzilla is the place to go for bug reports, Github sucks at that, no it is not good for code contributions - Github shines there (well, except for ebuild changes with a revbump where it can not display a diff...).
| simonvanderveldt wrote: | | Concrete suggestion: put the portage tree on GitHub, do PRs for changes and let anyone contribute changes by creating PRs. |
As mentioned above, all this is already happening. Be aware that your contributions will be reviewed on Github. Some developer will take their time to look at your code and engage in the occasional nitpicking. Everyone profits. Hope you won't be offended.  |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| simonvanderveldt wrote: | | IMHO it would help a lot if the portage tree would be maintained in a more open/democratic way and a more useful bugtracker be used. |
Gentoo operates outside of Github because Github is not open infrastructure, and certainly not under democratic stewardship. |
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Mr. T.
Guru
Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| simonvanderveldt wrote: | | IMHO it would help a lot if the portage tree would be maintained in a more open/democratic way and a more useful bugtracker be used. |
In my opinion, the comparison to a democracy is too high. I would rather qualify it as "equitable collaboration". |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54244
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:13 am Post subject: |
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helecho,
Gentoo on github can be likened to the kernel in bitkeeper.
Its useful but cannot be depended on.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| helecho wrote: | | simonvanderveldt wrote: | | IMHO it would help a lot if the portage tree would be maintained in a more open/democratic way and a more useful bugtracker be used. |
In my opinion, the comparison to a democracy is too high. I would rather qualify it as "equitable collaboration". |
helecho ... and how low can it go? If you frame it this way then you can effectively lead to contradictions like "non-equitable collaboration" (so, not "collaboration" at all). There are only three essencial forms of kratia/arkhi (rule/helm), monarchy (the rule/helm of one), oligarchy (the rule/helm of the few), and democracy (the rule/helm of the many), which of these is the most "equitable" in terms of its sharing responcibilities, obligations, etc ... or as simonvanderveldt put it "more open"? That said, I don't think he was speaking of the decision making process per se (which is perhaps what people think of when the word democracy is used), he was speaking about the collaboration process (so, barrier to entry, techne, etc).
best ... khay |
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Mr. T.
Guru
Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:54 am Post subject: |
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The democraty seems to be a complex state. There is "nothing" obvious in the democratic way. In fact, I believe that the essential things can be difficult to define or explain.
That is why I said that "the comparison to a democracy is too high" and "I would rather qualify it as equitable collaboration". |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| helecho wrote: | | The democraty seems to be a complex state. There is "nothing" obvious in the democratic way. In fact, I believe that the essential things can be difficult to define or explain. That is why I said that "the comparison to a democracy is too high" and "I would rather qualify it as equitable collaboration". |
helecho ... and how less "complex", or "difficult to define or explain", would the term "equitable" be? You are likely to get nowhere with that approach, when we define a term we are not reducing the phenomena to a simplism, we are providing a framework in which the phenomena can be understood, conceived, or explained (however incomplete, or fallible, that particular explanation might be). If you start from the premise that the phenomena is too "complex", "difficult", or what-have-you, then you might as well turn to religion, or art, to provide an explanation, as their basic function is to make any phenomena seem ineffable (and so, as Spinoza explains, provide a "sanctuary for ignorance").
best ... khay |
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Mr. T.
Guru
Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Lao Zi wrote: | | Those who speak do not know. Those who know do not speak... |
There are many forms of knowledge and many forms of ignorance. I'm not afraid of ignorance.
| khayyam wrote: | | You are likely to get nowhere with that approach... |
Maybe! I would like to follow some esoteric thoughts (taoism). I wonder if Plato wrote "The Republic" in two months?
I do not pretend to want to express what a democracy is. I'm wrong, but the road is wide enough for me to move forward.
I believe I can move forward as long as the sky does not fall on my head! I believe that creative minds are not necessarily coherent but can find solutions.
In my language, equity is a notion of natural justice in the appreciation of what is due to each; a virtue which consists in regulating his conduct
on the natural sentiment of justice and injustice.
In the end, no one is interested in this reflection. Why did Plato think that the city should be governed by philosophers?
| khayyam wrote: | | we are providing a framework in which the phenomena can be understood, conceived, or explained (however incomplete, or fallible, that particular explanation might be). |
I aggree with you but I would not discuss that here. |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| helecho wrote: | | The democraty seems to be a complex state. There is "nothing" obvious in the democratic way. In fact, I believe that the essential things can be difficult to define or explain. |
| khayyam wrote: | | helecho ... and how less "complex", or "difficult to define or explain", would the term "equitable" be? |
| helecho wrote: | | In my language, equity is a notion of natural justice in the appreciation of what is due to each; a virtue which consists in regulating his conduct on the natural sentiment of justice and injustice. |
helecho ... so as to keep to the subject being discussed (and not lead it down the the many rabbit holes referenced above), how less "complex" or "difficult to define or explain" was "democracy (the rule/helm of the many)"?
best ... khay |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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/me loses the willl to live.. ;)
IOW: Get back on-topic, please. |
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augustin
Guru
Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:37 am Post subject: |
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On topic:
The reason why I take so much time to deliver what I promised, is that I absolutely wanted to finish the following (lengthy) article before doing anything else here.
Hierarchy of contribution in Open Source
http://linux.overshoot.tv/blogs/augustin/hierarchy_contribution_open_source
In order to keep this thread focussed on OpenRC, you may if you wish discuss the article itself there:
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1059030-highlight-.html
The reason why I mention this article in this thread is it was written to a large extent in reply to many comments made above. I don't need to quote those comments. I am certain that the spirit in which I share this, and the inferences that can be made, will be understood.
The next item on my TODO list is the proposal discussed above regarding OpenRC. |
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simonvanderveldt
Apprentice
Joined: 26 Jan 2016
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the thoughtful responses to my experiences as a newcomer to Gentoo's development. I'd like to respond to them, but since this topic is actually about free-rc where should I do so? Should I do so in augustin's topic? |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| simonvanderveldt wrote: | | Thanks for the thoughtful responses to my experiences as a newcomer to Gentoo's development. I'd like to respond to them, but since this topic is actually about free-rc where should I do so? Should I do so in augustin's topic? |
Open a new thread here in Gentoo Chat. Post a link back if you wish. |
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augustin
Guru
Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:26 am Post subject: |
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It has been a long time in coming, but I am happy to finally be able to deliver on my promise.
OpenRC GLEP proposal
http://linux.overshoot.tv/blogs/augustin/openrc_glep_proposal
The next steps are really up to you all.
At first, please refrain from nit-picking on the details. At this stage, what matters the most is the big picture. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54244
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:59 am Post subject: |
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augustin,
OpenRC was written by the Gentoo and BSD developer known on the forums as UberLord.
Its been around for over 10 years, since I've been using it since mid 2007, just after the Gentoo-UK 2007 meeting in London.
You will find some of its history on the Gentoo mailing lists and bugzilla.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | augustin,
OpenRC was written by the Gentoo and BSD developer known on the forums as UberLord.
Its been around for over 10 years, since I've been using it since mid 2007, just after the Gentoo-UK 2007 meeting in London.
You will find some of its history on the Gentoo mailing lists and bugzilla. |
++
it was at that meeting after talking to him I tried it on a new build the following weekend - hosed the new install due to a bug in some temp file application.
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Fitzcarraldo
Advocate
Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Posts: 2034
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| augustin wrote: | It has been a long time in coming, but I am happy to finally be able to deliver on my promise.
OpenRC GLEP proposal
http://linux.overshoot.tv/blogs/augustin/openrc_glep_proposal
The next steps are really up to you all.
At first, please refrain from nit-picking on the details. At this stage, what matters the most is the big picture. |
| augustin wrote: | | Here, I lack the knowledge to document the OpenRC history. I think that at some stage Gentoo actually took over the OpenRC project, but I don't know exactly when nor from whom. Neither the wikipedia article nor the gentoo wiki say much about the history of the project, who started it, how old it is, where it was previously hosted, etc. I don't know where this information can be found. |
Ok, Ok, I know I'm nitpicking, but, as you wrote the above in your blog, I thought I'd mention that you can find a history at: https://github.com/OpenRC/openrc/blob/master/HISTORY.md
_________________
Clevo W230SS: amd64, VIDEO_CARDS="intel modesetting nvidia".
Compal NBLB2: ~amd64, xf86-video-ati. Dual boot Win 7 Pro 64-bit.
OpenRC udev elogind & KDE on both.
Fitzcarraldo's blog |
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:05 am Post subject: |
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What the hell is that systemd part in it?
I don't care about systemd, i use openrc because it do the job, and it do it right, not because systemd exists and i don't like it.
openrc was made prior to systemd, systemd has nothing to do with its creation.
You should be burn in hell for not knowing roy marples 
Your phpmyadmin example forget that phpmyadmin is not include in mysql.
Don't start getting openrc bigger for no reason except please desktop users ; openrc is not a desktop users tool.
If you want a tool for desktop users, fine do one, but don't include that in openrc where another package can handle it, don't also start to make openrc depends on the tool ; if any tool provide gui or cli to openrc, it should remain outside openrc, and openrc should never depend on it in order for anyone to build its own tool to replace the one handling the cli/gui part or just to not install or use it.
It's a myth that you're are not monolithic if your tool is made of many executable, you're modular only if each of your tool can be replace by another one. |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Stripped of "You should burn in Hell ...", I agree with Krinn. I will read the GLEP and comment further. I think it's great that you are at least trying to do orderly development instead of ad hoc hacking. |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| augustin wrote: | | At first, please refrain from nit-picking on the details. At this stage, what matters the most is the big picture. |
augustin ... if there is a "big picture" you've missed it by a mile:
1). developers (or "the distro") are not governed by the charter (says council member rich0), and so those "four pillars", or any appeal the the values they institute, have absolutely no relevance to what we users can expect.
2). The openrc project lead is on the council, and that is the top level decision making body on "global issues". This being the case we can assume that the specifics of your GLEP (ie, stability, adequate documentation, notification, etc) are in fact in place, and performed to the required standard. If this isn't the case (and given the non-applicability of the charter) who might be appealed to to correct this?
3). factors such as "opportunity", "flexibility", etc, are all subject to the socio-political (or mode of governance). The overall effect systemd's policy of "stanardiz[ing] the base system" is having in relation to those principles (and the lack of action taken to uphold them) can only function to empty them of their meaning (and, in my opinion, that is where we are now, so to appeal to them as having much in the way of value is to validate them as empty constructs).
3.1). the proof is in the pudding ... the mode of governance has failed to uphold the principles outlined in the charter (that is, if they haven't explicitly been reneged), and so any appeal made to them (in the form of a GLEP) is dangerously close to contradiction (ie, we uphold the "choice" of systemd regardless of what that choice means in relation to other choices) ... and OMG, I'm repeating myself ... again.
omnis determinatio est negatio ;)
best ... khay |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54244
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Not to poop on anyones party, as khayyam hints, a GLEP won't change anything.
Gentoo leads open-rc development. The only way to change that is to fork it and make Gentoo want to follow.
When Gentoo follows the fork, you have achieved some momentum but it has to be maintained.
Maybe Gentoo will contribute to your fork?
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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