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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | I think recompiling the kernel to add TIPC is overkill. The good kind of overkill maybe, but you're not going to sell bloatmakers on something “different” they can't understand. |
So wait, it's ok to recompile to install kdbust, a known crap design?
Just not to enable something that is already there, and proven, when we already make many requirements on both kernel config and userland dependencies.
| Quote: | | Dumb it down to ideas they already know, say Avahi over loopback, and they might be a bit more enthusiastic. |
Lol.
As for "something they can't understand", that would just be indication that they're not the "userland and kernel experts" they claim to be; surely time for us simply to stop listening.
"Alice looked at the Hatter, and the Hatter looked at the Rabbit, who looked at the Cheshire Cat, who simply smiled and disappeared." |
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Yamakuzure
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Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2284
Location: Adendorf, Germany
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds to me like they are all freaking out about their six-sided wheel being such an improvement over their old four-sided wheel, when they just do not use the perfectly circle shaped wheel that's been around for ages because they do not understand its suspension... This is really a sad thing.
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Yamakuzure wrote: | | Sounds to me like they are all freaking out about their six-sided wheel being such an improvement over their old four-sided wheel, when they just do not use the perfectly circle shaped wheel that's been around for ages because they do not understand its suspension... This is really a sad thing. |
BUT...
it's all of us that do understand it that are idiots, ignorant, luddites, etc.
BTW - for those that don't read the gentoo mailing lists, the latest idea from the systemd gentoo people (proposed by williamh) is adding /sbin and /usr/sbin to $PATH for everyone and/or possibly merging /bin, /usr/bin and /usr/sbin, into /bin... so it looks like the FDO/"Poettering cabal" usrmerge idiocy is rearing its head again. How long before williamh gets the inept Gentoo Council to dictate this too? |
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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The /usr/* sort of makes sense if you know the history of where /usr came from
Merging bin and sbin and/or sbin, /usr/sbin to $PATH looks more like lazyness than need. If there is a program a regular user can run that is in sbin... Why not symlink it into bin (for those few exceptions) or why does such an application exist where it is a root application but a limit user can run part of it? Split it out
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Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| The user can always modify his path anyway. it sounds more like Windows where users are usually admins with full admin rights anyway. |
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ct85711
Veteran
Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 1791
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:33 am Post subject: |
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and look at how secure windows is. I don't care if you look at any version of windows, it has always been a joke on security; and this is without any coding flaws in the windows source code.
Try looking at what a network admin has to go through, just to somewhat lock down a windows computer. The main thing a admin end up doing is using group policies, just to lock down a system. Even then, that's a complete joke in it's self, as you can break through GP's from within windows, let alone switching to command prompt or booting into a boot cd and bypassing the policies all together. Then you have MS's attempt to fs encryption. That's another joke there. What good is an encryption, if you can simply bypass it without needing to breaking it (the encrypted keys isn't needed either).
A while ago, my windows machine got root kitted, and before I zero filled the system, I decided to break through the root-kit (that was using group policy). After a couple days, I managed to break through the root-kit and this was way before I had any experience dealing with group policies. Now that I have more experience with the windows registry and group policies, I'd probably break through it in a fraction of the time. Of course once I removed the rroot-kit, I zero filled that system and started fresh as I couldn't trust that system. |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | The /usr/* sort of makes sense if you know the history of where /usr came from |
No, it does not.
The history went pretty quickly to how it is used, and a rootfs split still makes an awful lot of sense; it makes it far easier to deal with an initrd, if that's what's needed, as well.
It certainly makes zero sense for Hubbs to start YAF misguided campaign to "follow trends" in known-crap upstreams.
I'm amazed he has so much time on his hands, and can think of plenty of things he could be doing which would be far better uses of that time.
Learning shell properly, for one, instead of winging it via the cargo-cult. |
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gwr
Apprentice
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | latest idea from the systemd gentoo people (proposed by williamh) is adding /sbin and /usr/sbin to $PATH for everyone and/or possibly merging /bin, /usr/bin and /usr/sbin, into /bin |
Can someone please explain to me why this is even considered necessary? We've had Linux and Unix systems for literally decades and this has never been a problem. |
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| gwr wrote: | | saellaven wrote: | | latest idea from the systemd gentoo people (proposed by williamh) is adding /sbin and /usr/sbin to $PATH for everyone and/or possibly merging /bin, /usr/bin and /usr/sbin, into /bin |
Can someone please explain to me why this is even considered necessary? We've had Linux and Unix systems for literally decades and this has never been a problem. |
the /sbin, /usr/sbin part of a users $PATH? probably out of lazyness by either some users or developers when they create applications. Keeping bin and sbin separate is a clear separation between superUser and user applications.
Merging /usr/bin, /usr/sbin into /bin, /sbin... well /usr came about because of small diskspace "back in the day" & this isn't an issue these days BUT NFS base library is still valid, especially for slim clients.
There is at least one distro (arch iirc) that have removed the concept of /usr/*bin. Now that isn't to say it is universally right but there is a point of view.
As long as there is a valid reason to have a separate /usr (partition, nfs) then it isn't worth carrying the combinational logic to deal with IF local merge,ELSEIF ...
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khayyam
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| gwr wrote: | | saellaven wrote: | | latest idea from the systemd gentoo people (proposed by williamh) is adding /sbin and /usr/sbin to $PATH for everyone and/or possibly merging /bin, /usr/bin and /usr/sbin, into /bin |
Can someone please explain to me why this is even considered necessary? We've had Linux and Unix systems for literally decades and this has never been a problem. |
gwr ... because the same people who now claim its broke broke it by putting stuff required to boot in /usr/ ... funny how this stuff comes back and provides the raison d'etre for necessary change ;)
best ... khay |
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gwr
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Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Holy crap. Just reading that mailing list thread is enough to drive someone mad.
| Quote: | | I support this idea. The distinction between bin and sbin is stupid. |
No evidence to support what's stupid about it.
Good debate from that guy/gal.
| Quote: | | I'm okay with this. Should we do the same for /usr/bin and /usr/sbin ? |
Oh, well why not just do it everywhere, then?
| Quote: | I'm the weird one wanting to be able to check how much free
space I've got without going through hoops. |
Does no one even care why they were separated in the first place? |
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gwr
Apprentice
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | gwr wrote: | | saellaven wrote: | | latest idea from the systemd gentoo people (proposed by williamh) is adding /sbin and /usr/sbin to $PATH for everyone and/or possibly merging /bin, /usr/bin and /usr/sbin, into /bin |
Can someone please explain to me why this is even considered necessary? We've had Linux and Unix systems for literally decades and this has never been a problem. |
gwr ... because the same people who now claim its broke broke it by putting stuff required to boot in /usr/ ... funny how this stuff comes back and provides the raison d'etre for necessary change ;)
best ... khay |
Well the can bloody well put it somewhere else! |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6098
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | BTW - for those that don't read the gentoo mailing lists, the latest idea from the systemd gentoo people (proposed by williamh) is adding /sbin and /usr/sbin to $PATH for everyone and/or possibly merging /bin, /usr/bin and /usr/sbin, into /bin |
Yeah, nothing like giving a loaded gun to people, most of whom don't know what to do with it.
I never thought that Hubbs could come up with so many stupid ideas. 
The genesis of his "idea" is because of a bug report on osX having to do with go.
(and that was fixed properly by another dev)
Seriously he should be removed from his position to due to extreme incompetence.
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gwr
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Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: |
The genesis of his "idea" is because of a bug report on osX having to do with go.
(and that was fixed properly by another dev) |
This is not a Gentoo bug nor a OS-X bug. It's a Go bug. It's Go's responsibility to search multiple paths depending upon architecture, not the architecture's job to put everything in the one damn place Go bothers to look.
This is so backwards it's ridiculous. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | The /usr/* sort of makes sense if you know the history of where /usr came from |
| steveL wrote: | No, it does not.
The history went pretty quickly to how it is used, and a rootfs split still makes an awful lot of sense; it makes it far easier to deal with an initrd, if that's what's needed, as well. |
| Naib wrote: | | [blah blah..] but there is a point of view. |
..which is a load of twaddle, as we all know.
Stop playing Devil's Advocate, and stop ignoring the rebuttal points put to you.
Blithely carrying on as if they haven't been put, simply makes you look stupid, and/or dishonest. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| gwr wrote: | | This is so backwards it's ridiculous. |
"Alice looked at the Hatter.." ;-) |
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gwr
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Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | gwr wrote: | | This is so backwards it's ridiculous. |
"Alice looked at the Hatter.." ;-) |
I am beginning to think that I'm the Mad Hatter in that analogy. :-) |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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and again, this is why shims, kludges, etc to make existing good things work with braindead ideas is a bad idea... before long, you end up with so many shims and kludges, that the good things become distorted and broken by the stupidity of the braindead ideas.
Just think, this guy is the openrc lead AND sits on the Gentoo Council... he's all for crippling openrc to cover for the shortcomings of systemd, random packages in other distributions (see openrc-run), random software on other operating systems, etc and will happily use the weight of the positions he somehow got himself elected into to do so. |
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gwr
Apprentice
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | and again, this is why shims, kludges, etc to make existing good things work with braindead ideas is a bad idea... before long, you end up with so many shims and kludges, that the good things become distorted and broken by the stupidity of the braindead ideas. |
It doesn't even have to be a kludge. If the Go developers refuse to fix their brain-dead scheme of application lookup, then there's no reason why Gentoo can't patch it to work sanely. There's no reason for hacking any paths or changing filesystem layout. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | BTW - for those that don't read the gentoo mailing lists, the latest idea from the systemd gentoo people (proposed by williamh) is adding /sbin and /usr/sbin to $PATH for everyone and/or possibly merging /bin, /usr/bin and /usr/sbin, into /bin |
*facepalm*
| Anon-E-moose wrote: | Yeah, nothing like giving a loaded gun to people, most of whom don't know what to do with it.
..
The genesis of his "idea" is because of a bug report on osX having to do with go.
(and that was fixed properly by another dev) |
| gwr wrote: | This is not a Gentoo bug nor a OS-X bug. It's a Go bug. It's Go's responsibility to search multiple paths depending upon architecture, not the architecture's job to put everything in the one damn place Go bothers to look.
This is so backwards it's ridiculous.
..It doesn't even have to be a kludge. If the Go developers refuse to fix their brain-dead scheme of application lookup, then there's no reason why Gentoo can't patch it to work sanely. There's no reason for hacking any paths or changing filesystem layout. |
So er, wtf is the point in all this?
Summary seems to be: a total waste of time.
No wonder you're feeling a little surd ;-)
Step lively into the foochur, for 'tis brillig out there.. |
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John R. Graham
Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10589
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Split off the OpenRC fork discussion to its own topic: Shall we free-rc?
- John
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depontius
Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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This thread has languished for a bit - horror of horrors!
So in my usual belated reading of Linux Weekly News, I found this little tidbit:
| Code: | You know, I am certainly not the person who wouldn't agree to the concept of breaking eggs to make an omelette. But it's completely unnacceptable to go to the supermarket and break everybody else's eggs too, just because you want to make yourself one little omelette...
-- Lennart Poettering |
It's from here: https://lwn.net/Articles/667240/
The first comment points out the irony of that quote, and the response to that is a typical systemd-speak rebuttal.
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gwr
Apprentice
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | This thread has languished for a bit - horror of horrors!
So in my usual belated reading of Linux Weekly News, I found this little tidbit:
| Code: | You know, I am certainly not the person who wouldn't agree to the concept of breaking eggs to make an omelette. But it's completely unnacceptable to go to the supermarket and break everybody else's eggs too, just because you want to make yourself one little omelette...
-- Lennart Poettering |
It's from here: https://lwn.net/Articles/667240/
The first comment points out the irony of that quote, and the response to that is a typical systemd-speak rebuttal. |
He's not breaking any eggs to make breakfast. He's saying everyone should only eat cereal made by him for every meal and eggs are old-fashioned and lame.
Edit: And the cereal is broken. |
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Yamakuzure
Advocate
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2284
Location: Adendorf, Germany
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| gwr wrote: | | Edit: And the cereal is broken. |
But the new cereal breaks the bowl, so you'll need a new one anyway...
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6098
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | While Red Hat is growing by cross-selling and large deals, Red Hat's CEO Jim Whitehurst commented that a big part of his company's go-to-market motion is taking share from competitors.
"Whether that was UNIX to Linux or Windows to Linux or WebLogic to JBoss, and that continues and actually cloud accelerates that," Whitehurst said. "So we continue to take share nicely as well as win solid share of new workloads that are moving to cloud." |
http://www.serverwatch.com/server-news/red-hat-continues-to-grow-by-taking-share-from-others.html
Bwahahaha
Competitors? Like ubuntu, debian, etc. and here they thought sysd and crew would save them. 
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