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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius,

That's up to the switch to git.
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tld
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrbassie wrote:
There are a few overlays with older builds of openrc. gpo.zugaina.org

I'm still on 0.13.11
Thanks everyone for the suggestions! I was able to get it from here.

Tom
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also running 0.17 and have 0.12.4 and 0.13.7 ebuilds also available. Not sure of tarballs, but I might have them stored in http-replicator. I rarely clean it.

I also have issues with the later versions. There is periodic talk of a fork, but nothing has happened yet. Many ebuilds supposedly require later versions, but I just copy themto local portage, edit them and run the editted ebuilds. Usually works fine. Something that I forget did not like 0.13 so I moved to 0.17
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
There is periodic talk of a fork, but nothing has happened yet.

...probably because current stable openrc works perfectly fine for everyone.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
...probably because current stable openrc works perfectly fine for everyone.
If they have altered their systems to comply. If they like their systems as they are, they make a local overlay. Same for eudev.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not even remotely similar to the circumstances with eudev.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asturm wrote:
It's not even remotely similar to the circumstances with eudev.
Suit yourself. I'm not looking for a quarrel.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
I'm a bit surprised that this isn't complete. But having all of this, including the changelog, in one spot is nice.


A question. I've noticed that gentoo has done away with the Changelog, any idea of the reason.
It used to be convenient to look at it to see when a file got stabilized, changed, or removed.
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ct85711
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A question. I've noticed that gentoo has done away with the Changelog, any idea of the reason.


The changelog isn't really gone, all that happen is that they got rid of a redundant file when git has a more comprehensive changelog built in (to where devs can't hide that they modified the ebuild but not bother to update an external file that may not be fully accurate). Now the changelog (built into git) contains a lot more information telling you what files was modified and also the actual changes done to the ebuild files.
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berferd
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also interested in an overlay/fork of Openrc. If the latter, it would be nice if it could have the network dependent services patches applied:

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=522206
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Network_dependent_services
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depontius
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that the whole OpenRC versioning thing is up for question, my dedicated mythfrontend system sort-of died a few months back. Live has been busy enough late last year and early this year that we haven't really missed it too much, but it would be good to get it back online at some point.

I believe that at least part of the problems are related to some OpenRC update. At some point the "normal" method changed from "modules" to the more systemd-like "modules-load". From what I understand, the new way is less flexible in its ability to pass parameters to the modules, but it's what systemd does, so it must be better.

Anyway, I believe that was when snd_hda_intel and the various lirc-related modules quit loading, so I lost my sound-over-HDMI and remote control. I also suspect that there are two ways to fix - set up the systemd-friendly modules-load for loading the modules, or backtrack on OpenRC.

I know people around here seem to have their favorite versions of OpenRC - I thought the most-preferred was something like 0.17.?, but now I see people liking 0.13.?. Is there a general consensus here about the last good OpenRC? (I used to run separate /usr, but since getting burned on slack-space issues and with the better fragmentation resistance of ext4, I'm pretty much down to /, /boot, swap, and /home these days. So that's not an issue.)

If someone forks OpenRC to get it off of the systemd treadmill, I'm definitely interested, will test, provide feedback, etc.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
If someone forks OpenRC to get it off of the systemd treadmill, I'm definitely interested, will test, provide feedback, etc.

why stay with openrc, if we don't agree with what it is now and/or where it is going? there seem to be better (smaller + more efficient) alternate init systems - sinit, runit, s6, shepherd, etc.. can we use any of them seamlessly in gentoo?

i had a run in with runit on gentoo, and was almost happy before i gave it up and am back on openrc stable.
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ct85711 wrote:
Quote:
A question. I've noticed that gentoo has done away with the Changelog, any idea of the reason.
The changelog isn't really gone, all that happen is that they got rid of a redundant file when git has a more comprehensive changelog built in (to where devs can't hide that they modified the ebuild but not bother to update an external file that may not be fully accurate). Now the changelog (built into git) contains a lot more information telling you what files was modified and also the actual changes done to the ebuild files.
(Excuse the fact that this is clearly OT here). I was curious about this as well. Frankly this switch to git was something I never understood too much about, except for the fact that for most users, every just works as-is. I'm used to looking at the Changelog files as well to get any idea of what's gone on. I currently sync using emerge-webrsync, and I'm not sure I understand what all this means in that case. Are the changes only visible if you're actually syncing the portage tree using git?

Thanks!
Tom
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The git log is both better and worse. It's better if you want to reconstruct an old version. It's worse if you want to know why a change was made. Lots of devs neglected to put a meaningful comment in, just inanity like "version bump" or " ".
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ct85711
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's worse if you want to know why a change was made.

I agree on this, but this was equally if not worse in the old changelog. Sadly, the log only maintains what an developer puts down in it, but at least now there is now something to attempt to make sure a dev makes some kind of comment when he submits some to the tree. Now this doesn't mean that he does put a comment down, but at least it prompt him to; but there is a mark in the log that he did something either way. This is compared to before, that we hoped the devs would have modified some text file and noted that he made some change, but nothing actually making him do it.

Quote:
Frankly this switch to git was something I never understood too much about, except for the fact that for most users, every just works as-is. I'm used to looking at the Changelog files as well to get any idea of what's gone on. I currently sync using emerge-webrsync, and I'm not sure I understand what all this means in that case. Are the changes only visible if you're actually syncing the portage tree using git?


Most of this, is that the backend changed in how everything is tracked in the portage tree. I'm not going to get into the differences between cvs and git. As far as the changelog, I can't say fully on if the old changelog file is still made when you rsync or not, but from my understand is that there is a script goes and converts the git tree into a tree for rsync to use (to maintain the foundation and not break anything). Even if the changelog is not pushed through rsync anymore, it does not mean it is not available. If you go through Gentoo's site and look at the package through the online tree viewer, it has a link to bring you directly to that package's changelog that will contain every change done to that package since the beginning of time (or since the conversion at the least). So you can see the entire history that could go for multiple years easily enough in your browser window.
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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

from packages (here) you can get the changelog easy, like for gcc https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/gentoo.git/atom/sys-devel/gcc?h=master

It's up to devs to comment their commit, while previously, rules were made for changelog ; they seems to forget and just don't care about it, some devs still put useful comment, but some really don't post anything useful.

ie: (blame william hubbs)
Quote:
sys-devel/gcc: Add ~ keywords to 6.3.0
I am doing this after a discussion on the ml and speaking with
Kensington on IRC.

Yeah nice work, no link to the discussion, should anyone dig the web to find out the thread and irc log this comment is speaking about? And no bug ref to change a keyword, nice.
I wonder if he was selling crazy cows in England a few years ago?
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

  • Mannually run a service
  • The command executed by the service freezes
  • systemd cannot handle the situation --> dies too
  • system is still running but there's no way to power it off safely


You know... I do want to learn how to use systemd, but things like these only make my blood boil.
I'm trying to enable magic SysRq and go for REISUB. :(
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting back on topic... :) I noticed a new tactic that the SystemD users/supporters are using now: they pretend like SystemD has won and there are now no alternatives to it anywhere. Typically they will say, "SystemD has won, get over it!" Thus, it is a fait accompli, by simple declaration! Amazing! :D
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Happens here, too.

- John
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
I noticed a new tactic that the SystemD users/supporters are using now: they pretend like SystemD has won and there are now no alternatives to it anywhere. Typically they will say, "SystemD has won, get over it!"
Luckily that's a false (imagination). There are alternatives. Not just OpenRC(-init) or SysV init, but nosh, runit and others too.
Worst thing with systemd is that it's really not ready for serious usage yet. Ok. It works as long as you don't touch the configuration files. But systemd is like btrfs - has been in development for years, but not really ready for production use. But unlike btrfs developers, systemd developers don't seem to admit that.

Then last problem I encountered with systemd is when I push the power button. I've configured it (systemd-sleep) to put my system to hibernation. Well... After some updates it does not work anymore. What's worse: If I keep following journal while I press the button - absolutely nothing appears there. To fix this I need to just blindly shoot at things hoping it solves the issue. I would NOT trust systemd on any system that need to be stable. I've also witnessed the disadvantages of putting too many features into one binary in systemd.

"No other choices"... BAH! If there were no choices, then I'd propably run some BSD on my server.

Yes... I'm pretty ripe here.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
"No other choices"... BAH! If there were no choices, then I'd propably run some BSD on my server.


++
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
Worst thing with systemd is that it's really not ready for serious usage yet.

And it will never be, unless some sane people redesign it and build up from scratch.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.Kosunen wrote:
Zucca wrote:
Worst thing with systemd is that it's really not ready for serious usage yet.

And it will never be, unless some sane people redesign it and build up from scratch.


I agree, but like it or not, it's happening. The question will be seeing how many servers move to Devuan - presuming Gentoo and Slackware are considered too fringe.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
The question will be seeing how many servers move to Devuan - presuming Gentoo and Slackware are considered too fringe.
Devuan uses SysV init. While it works, I think there are better choices. Alhough I only speak from the knowledge I have gotten by reading, not actually using, the documentation of other process supervisors/inits. OpenRC as an exception.
If I have some time I'll sure try out nosh and Epoch.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
depontius wrote:
The question will be seeing how many servers move to Devuan - presuming Gentoo and Slackware are considered too fringe.
Devuan uses SysV init. While it works, I think there are better choices. Alhough I only speak from the knowledge I have gotten by reading, not actually using, the documentation of other process supervisors/inits. OpenRC as an exception.
If I have some time I'll sure try out nosh and Epoch.


I'm thinking in terms of business-class servers. At this point, pretty much everything new/current uses systemd, except Devuan, Slackware, and Gentoo. Of those, Devuan is the closest to mainstream, as in "nobody got fired for using". At that level, they're thinking five-nines, paid support, and the like. They're not digging into init systems or other such stuff. Which makes me wonder - the server business is generally quite conservative, quite slow to upgrade. I wonder how much penetration systemd has in the big-server space. I strongly suspect that most - conservative - IT staffs are not in a hurry to make that move, except with an experimental pool.
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