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Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:39 am    Post subject: Gnome 3.8 without systemd Reply with quote

In may day-to-day work I'm using KDE, with KDM as the display manager. But I like to keep a few other window managers and desktop environments around, so I can have a look at what things look like on these. Among the alternatives is Gnome, although I haven't started it in quite a while now. This morning my ~amd64 system world update greeted me with

# required by gnome-base/gdm-
# required by gnome-base/gnome-shell-3.8.3-r2
# required by gnome-extra/gnome-tweak-tool-3.8.1
# required by gnome-base/gnome-extra-apps-3.8.0-r1
# required by gnome-base/gnome-3.8.0[extras]
# required by @selected
# required by @world (argument)
>=sys-auth/pambase-20120417-r2 systemd

I don't feel like installing systemd just to keep this portage dependency happy. I don't even feel like using gdm, and since the above modification aims at gdm, I don't think installing this stuff will have any effect unless I actually run that code as well. What options do I have to install reasonable parts of gnome without incuring that dependency? Preferably I'd be able to have a mostly standard gnome session, although I'll gladly accept some missing features, like e.g. no suspend support as suggested here, and in fact no gdm at all.

Is launching a Gnome 3.8 session from a kdm login any more supported than from gdm without systemd? If so, is there any way to get this explained to portage in terms of package dependencies?

Is there any hope for updates to Gnome 3.6 for a decent time yet, and any hope for newer Gnome without systemd by that time?

If the anser to both of the above should turn out to be “no”, then I guess I'll remove Gnome from my Gentoo, and instead use a Debian in a virtualized environment whenever I want to have a look at something Gnomish. But that would seem a sad day for the diversity and interoperability of desktop environments.

Note: In case you want to keep Gnome at 3.6, you can get a list of all the involved packages from this change to package.mask.
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Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 26
Location: Karlsruhe, Baden-Württemberg, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, systemd seems to be getting a hard dependency of GNOME as of 3.8. GDM is utilizing it for restarting properly (although a changed /etc/init.d/xdm script would have sufficed as well... cf., but there's more.

gnome-shell is also having systemd as a hard dependency ( as well as some other packages I can't remember right now. Probably gnome-settings-daemon or the like.

This pretty much makes GNOME unusable on my system. systemd is hardmasked and it will stay that way, I won't let this cr* ever land on my system, lest start it or make it the default init application.

As far as I know, GNOME can be started from KDM just fine, also GDM is just using systemd for proper restart mechanisms. However, you'll need systemd for power and session management, also cf.

It may be possible to rip that out, but you'll lose functionality.

I don't think there's hope for having GNOME 3.6 being maintained long-term.

But there's other hope: if I understood correctly, most of the pain is coming from the consolekit => logind (part of systemd) migration GNOME is currently going through. There may be other reasons, but the interesting point is that logind could work with OpenRC as well, it "just" needs a "fake systemd" to be already running and ripped out of systemd into its own ebuild, for being able to co-exist on a system with openrc and udev.

However, if systemd integration deepens in further GNOME versions, I guess we're out of luck.

I, for one, will try to find out if XFCE4 is an alternative, even though I'll pretty much have to lose the majority of GNOMEness. But if that's the price for not having to use systemd, I'd gladly try that...

Best regards,

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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5782
Location: Removed by Neddy

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yup, gnome have gone deep with an init manager... I had a painful day removing gnome and rebuilding -gnome
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Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 6111
Location: Vienna, Austria; Germany; hello world :)

PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Funtoo seems capable to un-tangle Gnome from systemd

Would this also be an option for Gentoo ?

I'm curious to try out Gnome but NOT systemd - I'm rather content with openrc :roll:

Hardcore Gentoo Linux user since 2004 :D
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 3471
Location: Illinois, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


I'm curious to try out Gnome but NOT systemd - I'm rather content with openrc :roll:

Try Mate, it's basically a bug fix version of Gnome 2, unless you really want the Windows 8 clone.
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 4454

PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can have a look at how funtoo disables hard dep on systemd:
gnome-control-center, gnome-settings-daemon and gnome-shell are good points to start. You will realise that the patches are HUGE, and mostly activate deprecated features. AFACS they also disable the posibility to set hostname and datetime/timezone in control center (depends on hostnamed/timezoned). The gnome parts that are patched mostly relate to power management. If you want to rely on the patch work it's OK. But you already have one post in the forum thread you linked regarding suspending on LID close - does not work with newest patches though it worked in the past.
Maintaing those patches IMHO is a huge task, especially for an under-staffed team like Gentoo-Gnome herd. AFAIR that was the central point in not taking the burden to support code paths no longer supported (and already removed) by upstream. Breaking experience and the users hardware is way too critical...

If you want to give gnome3 a try I would recommend using a VM (if you want to prevent portage from installing systemd).
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