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augustin
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Joined: 23 Feb 2015
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 Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess it's the right forum, at least. |
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augustin
Guru
Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh no you didn't!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: No you DIDN'T!
O: Oh yes I did!
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument! |
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augustin
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Joined: 23 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| We should make a systemd-remake of this (i.e. fork Cleese)! |
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Navar
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Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Within a 4 minute time frame, you appear to favor quantitative versus qualitative. Working towards an upper bound post count? |
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augustin
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Navar!
I like the skit immensely. Very high quality! I sometimes use it to teach English and the use of question tags.
I recognized Goverp's reference straight away. I'd be surprised if I were the only one, though. After all, Portage uses Python.
Goverp made me laugh and I wanted to share the fun.
Have a nice day. |
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Navar
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pilla
Bodhisattva
Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 7729
Location: Underworld
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Rats! His postcount is already bigger than mine.
The fact that I haven't been a frequent flyer here for a while may account for that.
_________________
"I'm just very selective about the reality I choose to accept." -- Calvin |
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John R. Graham
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Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10589
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | Underneath the juvenile humour there is a point; or you wouldn't have started this thread. So, let's just deal with your central point shall we? Then you can see how it's done, and perhaps try to emulate the process.
...
It should also be made clear to you that trolling is trolling, whoever does it, and whatever badge they have attached to their moniker.
... |
Steve and khay,
It's true I was trying to get a rise out of you but, although I would've called it teasing as opposed to trolling, I'll submit to you that, under select circumstances, such behavior can be used, "with the best interest of the community at heart." I'll explain further. I had intended to go a few more demonstrative rounds before getting to my point, each one illustrating one of the behaviors I intended to call out, but Steve's reaction has given me the segue that I need.
It's not that I think that you post too much, nor even that you argue too much, but that too often your style of argument is harmful to the community (probably mostly unintentionally). Steve, and to a much lesser extent khay, sometimes behaves like he's brought a howitzer to a picnic; or park, if you will: to a place where the community gathers to interact and play.
My most egregious issues with your arguing style are (in roughly descending order of severity):- The howitzer thing. When you argue to hurt or punish instead of (or perhaps in addition to) merely correct or educate. The ffmpeg/libav default thread and the Gentoo governance model thread abound with examples of this behavior.
- The "always right" thing. When you change the reasons for your position, sometimes over and over again, as the original reasons are called into question; or quibble over minor differences in interpretation, while ignoring central agreement.
- The conflating thing. When you point to a bona fide but relatively minor technical issue and use it to imply that a larger body of work must be greatly flawed.
- The vulgarity thing. When you use misspellings to camouflage language that you know would otherwise be unacceptable in the forums.
A lot of these are at least somewhat covered by the Guidelines, which also incorporate by reference the rules of Netiquitte. If you insist, I can trot out examples of all of them, privately if you like. (I do have a couple of other "things" that I would like to discuss with you in private.) Some of these behaviors are engaged in by one of you; other by both; but none of these only by you two. But regardless of who does it, I truly believe that discourse with these attributes lessens the appeal of Gentoo, discourages dialog between Developer Community and the greater Gentoo Community, and in general makes it less fun to be here.
But perhaps I was wrong to start out the way I did: maybe I was acting like an idiot. I assure you, though, if so, I'm a teachable idiot. Let me propose an experiment to you. What if we let the community vote on a poll with the following options:- John was teasing, or trolling, with the best interest of the community at heart. So long as he doesn't overdo it, this is an acceptable Moderation tool.
- Trolling is trolling, whoever does it. John shouldn't have approached his issues that way.
I'll agree in advance to heed the advice of the community if the results are statistically significant. My question to both of you is, will you?
(We can agree on what "statistically significant" means—and the exact form of the questions—before we start the poll.)
You should know that, regardless of the criticism above, I have enormous respect for both of you and your contributions. I think you both are true assets to the Gentoo Community. Further, I think we share a perception that the Gentoo Community has some real issues, and a desire to be part of the solution as opposed to part of the problem. Khay has told me that some of his/her howitzer use has been in self defence after a perceived failure of Moderation. I have promised to try to be more sensitive to that and to try to do better.
Finally, whether Steve decides to get a humor transplant or not, I think I'll keep mine. Besides, you really must admit it was more sophomoric than juvenile, right? 
- John
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | Underneath the juvenile humour there is a point; or you wouldn't have started this thread. So, let's just deal with your central point shall we? Then you can see how it's done, and perhaps try to emulate the process.
...
It should also be made clear to you that trolling is trolling, whoever does it, and whatever badge they have attached to their moniker. |
| John R. Graham wrote: | Steve and khay,
It's true I was trying to get a rise out of you |
[emphasis added]
Let's just pause it there, for a second; think about this phrase as we go on.
| Quote: | | but, although I would've called it teasing as opposed to trolling, I'll submit to you that, under select circumstances, such behavior can be used, "with the best interest of the community at heart." |
And I'll return to that too.
| Quote: | | I'll explain further. I had intended to go a few more demonstrative rounds before getting to my point, each one illustrating one of the behaviors I intended to call out, but Steve's reaction has given me the segue that I need. |
See how much easier it is when we cut out the shilly-shallying and get to the substantive point?
| Quote: | | It's not that I think that you post too much, nor even that you argue too much, but that too often your style of argument is harmful to the community (probably mostly unintentionally). Steve, and to a much lesser extent khay, sometimes behaves like he's brought a howitzer to a picnic; or park, if you will: to a place where the community gathers to interact and play. |
I just call it like it is; I'm perfectly civil, but I get my point across, as far too often the problem is woolly thinking (including my own) so I get "germanic" about technical discussion.
This is especially important wrt software, since the whole thing is abstract, and there is a natural tendency to over-complexify.
| Quote: | My most egregious issues with your arguing style are (in roughly descending order of severity):- The howitzer thing. When you argue to hurt or punish instead of (or perhaps in addition to) merely correct or educate. The ffmpeg/libav default thread and the Gentoo governance model thread abound with examples of this behavior.
|
You'll have to be more specific. I do not recognise your characterisation of "punishing" or "hurtful" argument; except insofar as we are discussing abusive behaviour on the part of developers, which everyone seems to accept on the mailing-list, as if that were "professional respect", when it looks more like sharks avoiding each other as they gobble up the minnows.
That behaviour does the distro untold harm, both in terms of external perception (which relates to the Foundation, as does the whole point that the Council is strictly about technical matters, so how can it possibly claim any mandate over the social? a central point you keep evading, ime) and in terms of fostering user participation, since the devs keep whinging about how overloaded they are, then acting like asshats to the very people who do most of the groundwork.
If you are somehow conflating my description of bad behaviour by some developers, or the collective at times, with a blanket statement about all developers at all times, that's not really my problem.
For the avoidance of doubt, I'll simply reiterate that that is not my position, although I feel that is rather obvious, as well as explicitly stated previously.
However, social rules especially are specifically about when things go wrong; as such we have to discuss bad behaviour. And I don't think anyone is seriously positing that there are not enough sanctions available, and indeed used upon, users. So again, we come to developer behaviour. Either we can discuss that openly, and frankly, or we can forget about any idea of a community.
| Quote: | | The "always right" thing. When you change the reasons for your position, sometimes over and over again, as the original reasons are called into question; or quibble over minor differences in interpretation, while ignoring central agreement. |
Oh please; show me where we argue both sides of an argument at different points.
Frankly this reads more like projection, since this is exactly the kind of politicking several Gentoo devs have indulged in, apparently in line with the "modern" systemdidiot approach of not-very "gentle" persuasion, in line with a "strict policy" which is not the place of software.
As for getting the detail right, so does everyone else, or we wouldn't be computer-people.
| Quote: | | The conflating thing. When you point to a bona fide but relatively minor technical issue and use it to imply that a larger body of work must be greatly flawed. |
That's not conflation; that's called "an example"; of how things break down when developers labour under delusional ideas, about how the tree is their "personal sandbox" when anyone who gave it half-a-second's thought could tell you "no, your checkout of the tree is your personal sandbox". Especially when combined with the whole "we're above the users" mentality that leads to the "if you want us to behave, treat us special, differently to every other user, and differently both to how we treat each other, and very much so to how we treat you," meme that is so corrosive to harmony, and even more so the quality of the end-product.
IOW the discussion that was being had before, which you apparently had no answer for in the other two threads (certainly I saw no direct and substantive response to the points being made, which is why I mentioned that above.) So seemingly you prefer to describe it in general terms, so you can shoot it down, than actually address head-on. Would that be one of the "strawmen" so beloved of Gentoo discussion?
| Quote: | | The vulgarity thing. When you use misspellings to camouflage language that you know would otherwise be unacceptable in the forums. |
| Quote: | | A lot of these are at least somewhat covered by the Guidelines, which also incorporate by reference the rules of Netiquitte. If you insist, I can trot out examples of all of them, privately if you like. |
Well you've got "four items" that I can see, 3 of which are very much open to interpretation, and I would submit are in fact examples of things you're still getting your head round wrt your own developers, whom you of course feel a natural sense of loyalty to. By "getting your head round" I mean coping with the cognitive dissonance set up by seeing so many of them behave so childishly and boorishly, while no-one does a thing on the medium where it happens; when you were one of the Proctors who was supposed to sort this out.
It must have been really hard to square what was done to the Proctors before they had even started work, with any sort of sense of community with the "professionals" or at least long-time "devs", who did it.
As for misspellings; you're right: many others on the forums do much worse, and do it about people, not about software products, code, statements or behaviour; none of which are people, and all of which are well-known for fallibility.
| Quote: | | (I do have a couple of other "things" that I would like to discuss with you in private.) Some of these behaviors are engaged in by one of you; other by both; but none of these only by you two. But regardless of who does it, I truly believe that discourse with these attributes lessens the appeal of Gentoo, discourages dialog between Developer Community and the Greater Gentoo Community, and in general makes it less fun to be here. |
Like I said to yngwin: perhaps you could consider the role your developers and staff have played in any such "lessening of the fun". I for one find I have a lot more fun, the less I have to deal with Gentoo politics, which is why I only deal with fellow-users, some of whom happen to be developers.
For my part I can only say, the difference between the users as a collective, and the developers as a collective, is stonkingly embarrassing to the latter group. The users are what makes Gentoo fun, and supportive, along with the excellent work of the forum moderators, and freenode IRC operators, in many more channels than just the small Gentoo pond.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I for one find the developers (again, as a collective) to be the biggest turn-off about Gentoo.
Feel free to call that "howitzer"-style whatever. That won't stop it being anything other than a sincere expression of exactly how I feel.
And frankly I am tired of having my good faith called into question, by a collective of people who continually act like such ignorant bullies, most especially when they get together to nod their heads in collective judgement on users.
| Quote: | | But perhaps I was wrong to start out the way I did: maybe I was acting like an idiot. I assure you, though, if so, I'm a teachable idiot. Let me propose an experiment to you. What if we let the community vote on a poll with the following options: |
No let's not. ie: I respectfully decline your proposal. AFAIC it's just inviting a popularity contest, and again feels like asking everyone else to join in ganging up on us. Nor does it address any of the substantive issues.
Let's go back to what you said at the beginning: you were trying to get a rise out of us.
Ask yourself, if that's the kind of behaviour you would expect your childrens' school-teachers to indulge in; joining in with the biggest gang of bullies to make mock of people doing their best to work within their community.
It is precisely because the habitual response of developers is to mock users, that they engender such feelings of bad faith amongst the users they most need: the ones who persist in trying to make things better, despite all the abuse.
All you guys are doing, is shooting the messengers, then making scapegoats out of them. It does not make you look good to anyone with any sort of world-experience, believe me.
I have a lot of time for you too John, and a lot of respect. I don't think you're doing any of this in full cognizance of exactly what it is you are doing, or I would not have bothered to lay out the above for you. As you stated yourself, perhaps you did this idiotically.
There's a line from an eminem tune that sums up cognitive dissonance, and self-insight, best:
"I'm starting to doubt sh1t, I'm feeling a little sceptical of who I hang out with."
You state there are problems, but only discuss "ours", not the issues that are prevalent within the developer-base. You should acknowledge that actually the users get on fine: if they have social disagreements, they thrash them out on the forums amongst themselves, only rarely needing moderator intervention; and peer pressure to behave well (in line with the "norm of reciprocity" khayyam pointed out) is strong.
Contrast that with the behaviour displayed on a regular basis by developers, which is ahemmed aside, along with the politicking that led to the ripping up of the Community-mandated Code of Conduct, as well as the split-usr fiasco, the cooption of both QA and devrel, and ask yourself: where should you really be having this conversation, and which set is it that really needs to get its house in order?
I submit it's some (apparently many of) the developers who have the flawed understanding, both of what Gentoo is and how it's truly governed, as well as the whole point of the distro, and indeed any software product: to serve user-needs (or it gets binned.)
And it is the developers as a collective, who have the flawed shared methodology, based on a delusional shared mythos of themselves as l337, and users as noobs, when if anything, it is in fact the other way round, as the poll on user ages showed a while back.
I note in passing that you haven't actually evinced the "best interest of the community" you alluded to earlier. How exactly was holding me and khayyam up to mockery in anyone's best interests? If I hadn't cut through the chase, you would instead have "go[ne] a few more demonstrative rounds before getting to [the] point."
Which is exactly the problem, in both aspects; you should have got to the point in the threads where the discussion arose, and you should never ever indulge in mockery of a user, if you are an operator.
Most especially not when it's not even within the context of a thread, but rather where you are in fact holding them up to make an example, irrespective of what you think you're doing (only you just had a few more rounds of mockery to go.)
IOW this is a split-off, offtopic, thread from the governance one, and you really should get back to the topic, imo.
If you don't help to sort it out, how on earth can you expect anyone else to? You are one of the few people who can actually make a difference; if you don't bother to engage with the substantive issues, the rest of us can start making plans to pack, I guess.
After all, that's what so many of your developers have suggested along the way; that I "just get out of Gentoo", as it's "their" sandbox/playground/bikeshed. No offence, but I'll stick with the users, who support me to run my boxes how I like, and don't question my choices when they discuss their experiences with alternative decisions of their own.
They're also a lot more fun, and the humour is much more to my taste, since it tends to be self-deprecating rather than obnoxious (except for OTW, ofc.;)
As for this thread, i reiterate my central point that was cut from your quote:
| steveL wrote: | You appear to be indicating that khayyam and I post too much. The only reason I can think that you've singled the two of us out, is the ongoing discussion about ffmpeg/libav and the associated thread about how Gentoo is (not) organised, about which your developers are clearly ignorant.
So from my side there is no point; you're just circling the wagons, as usual. You can try to pretend you're just doing it to alleviate tension, but that's nonsense, and we all know it. You are poking me and khayyam to get a rise, and hold us up as examples to the other users, on behalf of your "group". |
That is all you've been doing, and that is all you're doing when you try to turn it into a popularity contest.
None of it has anything to do with actually correcting the issues, so with respect, I'm out of this thread in substantive terms. If you wish to address the actual issues, please do so in the correct thread.
I'll happily respond to you ofc; just so long as we're clear that we're now discussing your behaviour, and why you carried it out, and not the topics of the other threads. |
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aidanjt
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1118
Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:55 am Post subject: |
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I can't help but think that this thread belongs in OTW.
_________________
| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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steveL
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Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Yeah that'd be par for the course; the deflection didn't work, so shunt it into OTW so the other party can get loads of abuse, or shove it into the dustbin so we can bury it, instead of fessing up and dealing with our sh1t, cos that's just too hard.. waaah.
If you don't like reading "negative" descriptions of bad behaviour, here's a hint: try to show by example that not every developer indulges in them, and when they do -- because everyone makes mistakes -- some have enough awareness and maturity simply to apologise immediately.
After all, users are told to deal with their behaviour all the time, and in much less polite terms (and it's always the users who have to apologise and kowtow, never the developer admitting mistake and getting on with it: since they control the mechanisms of anti-social moderation, despite total ineptitude for such matters, and they all defer to each other in "good" faith, which apparently users never have.)
@jrg: btw I should have said "perhaps you approached this badly"; using your phrase was not a good idea, since it was not precisely what I intended. No doubt there are other rough patches; forgive me, I am/was tired (getting old..) and I'm no khayyam when it comes to prose. |
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khayyam
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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John ...
I could probably surmise my engagement, or lack thereof, as damned if I do, damned if I don't ... anything I'm to bring to the party is likely to be classed as a weapon, and so should the party clown drop dead of laughter that too might have me play some significant role. So, while the invite has my name on it, it cordially invites me not attend ... least something happen that I'm in part responsible for.
Similarly, when a discussion in a bar comes to the amicable suggestion that you might both go outside and discuss it further you can as well put the knee to the groin right there, as the idea of fairness went the way of that suggestion, and however amicable it may seem its no longer a matter of discussing, or proving, anything. So too in politics, the way its played is this: submit the opposition to rules which are stated but disavowed. When such rules are then broken, or a burden, invoke a state of exception in necessitas non habet legem.
Hopefully the above is enough to provide you with examples of all my faults ... have fun.
best ... khay |
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John R. Graham
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Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10589
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | ...
Similarly, when a discussion in a bar comes to the amicable suggestion that you might both go outside and discuss it further you can as well put the knee to the groin right there, as the idea of fairness went the way of that suggestion, and however amicable it may seem its no longer a matter of discussing, or proving, anything.
... |
Khay, not addressing the rest of what you said above for the moment, this at least was not my intention. The things I was considering discussing with you and Steve in private are things I construed might be deemed sensitive by you all. I hereby give you full permission to quote or republish anything I may say to you in private (unless we both agree not to do so). That said, do you not want me to contact you in private?
- John
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I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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khayyam
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Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| John R. Graham wrote: | | khayyam wrote: | | Similarly, when a discussion in a bar comes to the amicable suggestion that you might both go outside and discuss it further you can as well put the knee to the groin right there, as the idea of fairness went the way of that suggestion, and however amicable it may seem its no longer a matter of discussing, or proving, anything [...] |
Khay, although you may have a point about some of the other thing you said, this at least was not my intention. The things I was considering discussing with you and Steve in private are things I construed might be deemed sensitive by you all. I hereby give you full permission to quote or republish anything I may say to you in private (unless we both agree not to do so). That said, do you not want me to contact you in private? |
John ... I'm not sure you're understanding the above, its not about discussing in private/public but about the basis for that discussion (wherever it might occur) ... perhaps american's don't step outside to "discuss" things when in bars, so perhaps the analogy is lost. Anyhow, what you seem to want is that I'm open to such a discussion, but that's precisely what I think you've undermined with the above, you're already on the side of the community, fun, etc, whereas I'm not ... you're the voice of moderation, whereas I'm not ... your intentions in 'getting a rise' are entirely intended to educate, whereas I am subject to the rules (with the assumption that they have in fact been violated), etc, etc. So, I take that in the same manner as I might someone asking me to 'step outside and discuss it', but by doing so I'm right back to being damned either way.
best ... khay |
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steveL
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Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam++ |
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ff11
l33t
Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Posts: 664
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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The people that have power position on gentoo have only 3 choices:
1 - Continue the lie: "Saying that gentoo is for community (devs, users and others contribution), but be for devs only". (current situation)
2 - Stop the lie and change for "dev only kind" (changing all doc related, and dismiss all misunderstand, been clear on this fact). And this truly allow devs do whatever they want. (the right thing to do if you want to rule everything and not listen anyone.)
3 - Stop the lie and go back to the community route. And that case, the devs can't do whatever they want, and the community opinion have to be respected like the direction to go. (The right thing to do and what we users hope)
Only Option 1 allows this kind of discussion that you want to hide. And we will not be on silent while you try to deceive us. |
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steveL
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Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| John R. Graham wrote: | | The things I was considering discussing with you and Steve in private are things I construed might be deemed sensitive by you all. I hereby give you full permission to quote or republish anything I may say to you in private (unless we both agree not to do so). That said, do you not want me to contact you in private? |
I am at a loss as to why you didn't contact us in private in the first place, rather than indulge in several rounds of mockery (purportedly to illustrate your point.) You appear to be less able to use the forums than the rest of us.
Since we're having the discussion in public, I'd rather we continued in public; however that doesn't mean you cannot use your judgement if you think something is especially sensitive or confidential.
In no event will I accept you simply evading points as you have done consistently throughout this saga, across threads. As those were public, they should be answered publicly.
I agree with ff11 and khayyam both. Y'all cannot keep on hiding the true discussion, all the while putting this nonsense out in the public sphere.
Have the public discussion with your fellow users, in full and frank exchange, without ignoring what is in front of you, and trying to punt it elsewhere w/e it gets awkward. Just deal with it, instead.
OFC another view of this, is that it's rather obvious what needs to be done, and no-one wants to admit that, since the one thing no developer really wants to do is stick their neck out on the mailing-list, because they are afraid of the reaction they'd get. Only no-one wants to admit that, for sure, so instead we get vague woolly "discussion" on the forums instead, and only when the users initiate it in response to yet more idiotic breakage.
Users know damn well that the mailing-list is a den of vipers whenever you're saying something that goes against the consensus delusion of devs-above-users. Devs know it too: they just won't admit it (though you'll hear many of them talk negatively about the list, the cognitive dissonance means they often blame the list nastiness on the users instead; with what sort of rationalisation, I have no idea.)
Occasionally they make a big deal out of being nice to some newb instead, usually after they've been politicking in the background (bugzilla in the main) as if that makes up for it; "see aren't we nice really?" No, you're not as a collective. That's why your own staff are afraid to confront real issues on the list designed for them.
In the meantime, practically the whole of Gentoo has now been coopted to the apparatchiks as I've realised during this discussion. Council, QA and devrel, the latter two of which really should not be anything to do with developers. No wonder the RedHat brigade feel now is the time to topple Gentoo and "gently persuade" it to default to systemd.
Gentoo: this is your wake-up call. Snooze and lose your distro to the corporate 5th-columns.
Or y'know, float on, into the shining path of One True Way, and the Master Control Program running on fedora-src.
At least you compiled it, right? So you're still an individual, just like all the other cogs^W snowflakes. |
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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steveL:
| John R. Graham wrote: | | khayyam wrote: | ...
Similarly... |
Khay, not addressing the rest of what you said above for the moment, this at least was not my intention. |
Everyone could be wrong, or doing mistake at some action or speaking (that for many users, use english as non native language).
I don't think the Gentoo admin, dev, mod or even user title grant anyone ability to never been wrong
Now that it's clear JRG's try, wasn't made or done like he would (to sum up: wrong) ; there's no problem to be wrong, there's one if you don't admit you were.
What you could only say is "you were wrong", and JRG could only answer "i was wrong" or try justify it, something that may push him more into wrongness.
I think we are all enough old to know where it will end: (like khayyam said) let's discuss this outside.
I don't think it is necessary to discuss this more... |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | | Now that it's clear JRG's try, wasn't made or done like he would (to sum up: wrong) ; there's no problem to be wrong, there's one if you don't admit you were. |
Sure, everybody makes mistakes. I often find myself having to apologise on IRC, typically when I haven't realised that what I've said is insensitive to non-technical concerns.
| Quote: | | What you could only say is "you were wrong", and JRG could only answer "i was wrong" or try justify it, something that may push him more into wrongness. |
I'd just like to get back to the actual threads, and/or the substantive discussion; so I agree:
| Quote: | | I don't think it is necessary to discuss this more... |
If there's one thing I'd like to get across to any developers or staff it's what I said above; don't evade the discussion, nor the reality.
Just deal with it, instead. |
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Navar
Guru
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | I can't help but think that this thread belongs in OTW. |
Oh hell no. Only if this thread was moderated to keep the overt political scapegoating projection doublespeak ad hominem devil is in the details; you're the devil, no you! etc. sidetracking complete derail banter the heck out. We can find those slants almost everywhere, being bombarded with them daily; we don't need them w.r.t. this here.
Sometimes the discussions on OTW have faired better than elsewhere here (without traversing into the crevice of above) which can make it an interesting and entertaining place. For some, that makes it a reprieve from situations run afoul here and why they will sometimes cry foul to any suggestions to migrate other mudslinging into OTW.
Besides, you know it for the club it is. |
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John R. Graham
Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10589
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | krinn wrote: | | Now that it's clear JRG's try, wasn't made or done like he would (to sum up: wrong) ; there's no problem to be wrong, there's one if you don't admit you were. |
Sure, everybody makes mistakes. I often find myself having to apologise on IRC, typically when I haven't realised that what I've said is insensitive to non-technical concerns.
| Quote: | | What you could only say is "you were wrong", and JRG could only answer "i was wrong" or try justify it, something that may push him more into wrongness. |
I'd just like to get back to the actual threads, and/or the substantive discussion; so I agree:
| Quote: | | I don't think it is necessary to discuss this more... |
If there's one thing I'd like to get across to any developers or staff it's what I said above; don't evade the discussion, nor the reality.
Just deal with it, instead. |
Just so. First an apology. I'm sorry I approached my concerns the way I did. I was wrong.
Second, a promise for a future apologia, as I do not intend to abdicate my responsibilities to moderate the forums, and I do see a real issue here that I would like to discuss further. After all, I have all of those substantive points to address.
- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| John R. Graham wrote: | | First an apology. I'm sorry I approached my concerns the way I did. I was wrong. |
No problem; thank you for standing up and saying that.
| Quote: | | Second, a promise for a future apologia, as I do not intend to abdicate my responsibilities to moderate the forums, and I do see a real issue here that I would like to discuss further. After all, I have all of those substantive points to address. ;) |
Lul; I look forward to seeing them discussed in the appropriate venue. ;-)
I guess what I'm saying is the issue isn't about me or khayyam, any more than it's about you and Neddy. Though by all means go ahead in here; for my part if it's not about the user-developer interaction, which I think is what the "how Gentoo is organised" thread was all about: how to address the problems when that breaks down, since the current morass doesn't work. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| John R. Graham wrote: | | After all, I have all of those substantive points to address. ;) |
So much for that. |
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