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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
khayyam wrote:
Neddy ... both of these models suggest a governor engaged in getting other parties to go with the program, either via enticement or via being convinced. In our case no such governor exists as nobody has any such right granted them to usurp the community and stand in place of the norm of reciprocity underscoring that community. [...]

Once upon a time Gentoo had a Benlovent Dictator For Life [...]

Neddy ... hehe, yes, and it was one scary, or dysfunctional, fairy tail ... with somewhat of a happy ending: the many-headed hydra playing whack-a-mole with the decapitated head of the singularimon. This singularimon, though lifeless, has the power to re-invent itself and so return in other guises, occupying the role of spectre to the proceedings, re-animating the deathless cycle wherever there is power to be had. Fortunately, or accidentally, or conversely, the wizened body of the hydra, made united by the blows of the singularimon, saw the paradox of power in the whack-whack-whack of its many heads, and from its foundation raised itself as the mirror paradox so they the singularimon would have to fight on the field of the many, and so block the singularimon by using its singular power against it. Like a phoenix the body of the hydra then went into hyperbolic meltdown leaving the many heads as a testament to its passing, and so so-and-so beget such-and-such, and they all lived as though nothing had ever happened, as it normally the case with happy endings.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
The split came when the Foundation was formed separately from Gentoo the distro.

Not quite, because the later's power is derived from the former's.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
All that is water under the bridge. I don't like the two headed monster that Gentoo has become. Its the trustees that are held legally accountable for Gentoo the distro, which if you believe the reference docs, they have no inflence over. As trustee that makes me uncomforable.

Yeah, that's not really a good position for the foundation to be in ... I'm tempted to say "no taxonomy without representonomy" ;)

NeddySeagoon wrote:
khayyam wrote:
I see the problem, the community (with all its diverse wants, views, etc) hasn't been given sufficient role in its own production

The community is like topsy so I don't understand your comment.

Well, no, even if topsy's view of origins isn't as developed as, say, the big bang, it doesn't make it any less reasoned. We don't need to know the precise origins of something to state something is the case, we do this all the time, place your hand in the fire and you will have some idea of what error is, even if you have no explanation of why it happens. If you say there is no such thing as 'community', or that the term is purely a nominalist construct, you still have to account for some number of persons working in relation to each other.

best ... khay
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:


NeddySeagoon wrote:
The split came when the Foundation was formed separately from Gentoo the distro.

Not quite, because the later's power is derived from the former's.

best ... khay


I really wish I could find that documented somewhere. Even in the days of Gentoo Technologies Inc, drobbins kept the two separate.
The way Gentoo is set up today, the Foundations role is more like a whipping boy for the distro than a part of the leadership.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
khayyam wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
The split came when the Foundation was formed separately from Gentoo the distro.

Not quite, because the later's power is derived from the former's.

I really wish I could find that documented somewhere. Even in the days of Gentoo Technologies Inc, drobbins kept the two separate.

Neddy ... this 'distribution' doesn't have any status as an entity, everything is derived from the legal status of the gentoo foundation. When the distribution does something its power is derived from those invested in it by the gentoo foundation (ie, the charter). The distribution is basically provided the right to act as agents of the foundation, nothing more. In terms of being a legal entity, it is only the gentoo foundation that can make contracts/agreements, provide rules, etc, etc ... the distribution can do this only if charged to do so by the foundation, and its given no such mandate. In fact, in a court of law the distribution doesn't exist, its just a group of agents acting on behalf of the foundation, so there probably isn't even room for a breach of contract should the foundation insist on a certain course of action, or disbanded one or other bodies the agents have instituted.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
The way Gentoo is set up today, the Foundations role is more like a whipping boy for the distro than a part of the leadership.

That is basically a role reversal, there is no leadership except that of the foundation (and whatever agents charged with acting on its behalf).

best ... khay


Last edited by khayyam on Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam,

I agree with all that you say there.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So display leadership.

You only live once. ;-)
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yngwin
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
yngwin,

Its interesting that you cite ... the Gentoo Foundation is a separate entity ...
That devs share this belief gives me, as a Foundation trustee, nightmares.

Then why does the Foundation Charter state that it "does not contain any policies about the Gentoo development process" and that the Foundation does its work "without intervening in the Gentoo development"?

To me that shows that the Foundation is just our legal department, not our Board of Directors.

Also, that is the way it was explained to me when I became a developer, or at least how I understood it. And it is how I have seen it function in practice.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
The reality is that the Foundation is legally Gentoo, all of it. When/if Gentoo devs mess up to the point of legal action being taken against Gentoo, its the Foundation thats in the firing line and devs who are not Foundation members, personally. See the Foundation bylaws.
Like it or not, in the eyes of the law, the Foundation is Gentoo.

From the outside looking in, everything Gentoo answers to the Foundation, so ... the Gentoo Foundation is a separate entity ... is both incorrect and meaningless, its just a fallacy that's perpretrated inside of Gentoo. It only works while we are all good friends.

I guess a lot of work needs to be done then, to clear this up.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin,

yngwin wrote:
I guess a lot of work needs to be done then, to clear this up.

It does.

Put yourself in the position of the trustees. The council, or even an individual claiming to represent Gentoo screws up and the trustees have a writ landing on the doormat.
The way the structure is at the moment, the trustees have no authority to take advance preventative measures. That's not to say that they wouldn't try.
The balance of responsibility and authority in Gentoo is not correct.

Theres another interesting question .. who represents Gentoo ?
It can't be the council ... legally it doesn't exist.
It has to be the officers of the foundation in the discharge of their duties. That sounds somewhat unsatisfactory too but think of any normal corporation, who represents it?

If the foundation were just the legal department, it would have a lot of inflence and authority over the way the rest of the corporation operated.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
I guess a lot of work needs to be done then, to clear this up.

Not really; it's always been like this, ever since the NFP was first started.

I'm just amazed that so many developers have been acting so brazenly, when they're all so unforgivably ignorant.

Wonder what the reactions to a user on the list would be, who were half as ignorant. Somehow I doubt they'd be anywhere near as civil.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
Its interesting that you cite ... the Gentoo Foundation is a separate entity ... That devs share this belief gives me, as a Foundation trustee, nightmares.

Then why does the Foundation Charter state that it "does not contain any policies about the Gentoo development process" and that the Foundation does its work "without intervening in the Gentoo development"?

yngwin ... the following is from the wikipedia entry for 'charter'.

wikipedia::charter wrote:
A charter is the grant of authority or rights, stating that the granter formally recognizes the prerogative of the recipient to exercise the rights specified. It is implicit that the granter retains superiority (or sovereignty), and that the recipient admits a limited (or inferior) status within the relationship, and it is within that sense that charters were historically granted, and that sense is retained in modern usage of the term.

Note how it doesn't provide the recipient independence, and that the "rights" granted only extend as far as those "specified". A non interference clause would not be considered a free licence, if the recipient reneged on any of the granters stated principles, abused its limited status, or caused the granter to feel that this charter needed further amendment to direct its mission (and activities of the group) its completely within its right and power to do so. This is particularly true for issues relating to the foundations principles and goals, and its legal responsibility for every action taken on its behalf (the crux of Neddy's "nightmare").

yngwin wrote:
To me that shows that the Foundation is just our legal department, not our Board of Directors.

Everything is the gentoo foundation ... its the only entity. Everyone else, developers, forum members, users, etc, etc, are all agents acting under its auspices (ie, the terms specified in the charter). Do you have a legal document that states that you are a developer, or are part of some legally recognisable organisation called 'the gentoo distribution'? You don't, all you have is a verbal agreement to act as an agent, and a written charter providing you with limited rights. If you stepped into a court of law and said "I am said developer" they would ask for proof of that status, and any document you might have would have to have been signed and sealed by the foundation.

Now, as you've argued that you are not subject to the principles laid out in the charter, and deny you have any obligation toward it, you are in a position of having reneged on that charter, so the very distinction of 'developer' (referring to you) is negated. The right of acting in the name of has been violated and the foundation can revoke your status and the rights granted by the charter. That doesn't make them the "board of directors", it makes them guardians over the stated goals of the project.

yngwin wrote:
Also, that is the way it was explained to me when I became a developer, or at least how I understood it. And it is how I have seen it function in practice.

That's no surprise, it's a view that is inculcated by developers as it reflects a view of their autonomous status and their right do as they please.

best ... khay
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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is another reason why we need an entity to watch out what devs are doing:
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/7b889b32f3ef50dc908b96107cee21af
at least one dev didn't totally fall into the "Gentoo rules aren't for devs" : https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/27e8b99db6fcd2654fc2548a605f0b70

So it break social contract (a written rule), it bypass the infra team, and claim some "official" state over it...
Companies cannot provide freedom to Gentoo, at first their commercial nature could goes against Gentoo, but they also depend on their country authority, and security as many companies get hack and try their best to hide it to their customer.

github or google or anyone, we shouldn't depend on them, the social contract is clear about it.
Using github put many limitations to Gentoo, and high treat on the Gentoo Fundation itself, see: https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/
Quote:
You shall defend GitHub against any claim, demand, suit or proceeding made or brought against GitHub by a third-party alleging that Your Content, or ....
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steveL
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
This is another reason why we need an entity to watch out what devs are doing.

It breaks the social contract (a written rule), it bypass the infra team, and claims some "official" status

I agree that it should not be seen as the only Gentoo git repo; however it's fine for it to be the official mirror on github.
Quote:
at least one dev didn't totally fall into the "Gentoo rules aren't for devs" : https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/27e8b99db6fcd2654fc2548a605f0b70

Yes, and others don't seem like they see it as anything than a mirror; not the actual upstream gentoo repo, which would necessarily have to run on Gentoo infra.

Though it would be good if there were some consensus on that.
Quote:
Companies cannot provide freedom to Gentoo, at first their commercial nature could goes against Gentoo, but they also depend on their country authority, and security as many companies get hack and try their best to hide it to their customer.

github or google or anyone, we shouldn't depend on them, the social contract is clear about it.
Using github put many limitations to Gentoo, and high treat on the Gentoo Fundation itself, see: https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/
Quote:
You shall defend GitHub against any claim, demand, suit or proceeding made or brought against GitHub by a third-party alleging that Your Content, or ....

That is a concern, though any suit someone were to make against github wrt Gentoo content, would I think be part of a wider action against Gentoo; ie something that the Foundation would necessarily have to deal with, whichever distribution channel were involved. Being on github, or not being on github, wouldn't seem to make much difference.

I think that's the way to look at it, really: just another distribution channel. Though the grandiloquent language of the proposal doesn't help, admittedly, so I can understand why you were taken aback by it.

The legal obligations are certainly something the Trustees need to be aware of, whenever "official" mirrors of content which imply acceptance of a contract are involved.

Presumably they read the list; certainly some of them do, to my knowledge. Not sure if that counts as due process and notification when it comes to presumption of legal obligation, but thankfully that's SEP.
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2015 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we're working on it
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(splitted my post from the thread: Shall we free-rc?".) --helecho

I believe comparing the exchanges between the members of the community and a defined model of governance is not relevant.
Moreover (in my opinion), there is a lack of rigor in the construction of reflection in the thread which is detrimental. It is better to define his thinking as a whole rather that
each person indicates what is relevant or not in the opinion of others otherwise the result as a consequence may be unpredictable or bad :( .
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